[Discussion] Pollution

[ptarth]

Documentation of Pollution Mechanics
Disclaimer: I don't think the players understand how pollution works. I know I thought I did. And then I learned I was wrong, and that I now knew how it worked. I was wrong again. The following is my best current understanding. I also have made game balance suggestions based on my wrong understanding, which don't actually do anything. The following are the conclusions draw from a .613 Fenyn game and prior experience.

Note: This contains spoilers.

Spoiler for Hiden:

Pollution is generated by buildings with a set value and set area.
Examples:
Factories make 500 pollution in a radius of 3.
Science Labs make 120 pollution in a radius of 1.

Building Pollution Generation is not the same as per hex pollution generation.
Per hex Pollution Generation = PollutionValue/HexArea/10.

Examples:
The Science Lab generates 120 pollution in a radius of 1. This affects 7 hexes. The math is then: 120/7/10 = 1.71. Each hex within 1 of the Science Lab will gain 1.71 pollution per turn.
The Factory generates 500 pollution in a radius of 3. This affects 37 hexes. The math is then: 500/37/10 = 1.35. Each hex within 3 of the Factory will gain 1.35 pollution per turn.
So a Factory generates more pollution in total, but the Science Lab produces denser pollution per tile. Because of the low level pollution scrubbing provided by the terrain, A Science lab will have more pollution than a Factory, while in isolation.

Pollution Scrubbing occurs BEFORE pollution generation.
*update* This will be switched, but hasn't yet. I'll need to write much of this once this is changed.
Example:
You have 1,000,000 Hazmat pollution power adjacent to a Science Lab. The Science Lab will always have 1.71 pollution on it and all adjacent hexes.

The order of operations is:

• Pollution Movement
• Pollution Scrubbing **Scrubbing will be swapped with Generation in later patches**
• Pollution Generation

Pollution Generation
Pollution is generated as a unique entity.
Pollution entities are never combined with other entities. (Even if they overlap on a single tile).
Pollution entities are removed when they reach 0 pollution.

Pollution Movement
Pollution Movement is generally to the SouthEast (lower left), but on occasion 10%? it shifts an extra hex up or down.
Pollution Movement can be reversed by a Diplomatic Deal with the Fenyn. It then flows NorthWest instead of SouthEast.
Pollution Movement is also affected by blocked by Mountains (and Map Borders not tested or Chris confirmed?). I think I have a game with dumps that generate pollution on the opposite side of a mountain, but I need to check that.

Pollution Scrubbing
Pollution Scrubbing is a combination of a universal decay rate plus the scrubbing values of the hex and building on the hex.
Pollution Scrubbing is simple subtraction. However, the Scrubbing value is 1/10 the listed value.
Each Smog entity is reduced by 0.8 every turn.
Each hex is cleaned by the amount of Scrubbing/10 total. If there are two entities, the scrubbing occurs on one of them, with the remainder (if any) probably carried over (untested).
Jungles & Forests have 2 scrubbing strength.
Fenyn terraformed terrain have 20, 25, and 30 strength. This has been/will be changed.

Examples
You have a 50 strength pollution smog entity on a hex.
At the start of the turn it is reduced by 0.8 pollution.
An adjacent Hazmat with a scrubbing value of 90 would reduce it by 9.
At the end of turn the pollution smog entity would have a strength of 40.2 (50 - 0.8 - 9).

You have 2 strength 50 pollution smog entities on a hex.
At the start of the turn both are reduced by 0.8 pollution.
An adjacent Hazmat with a scrubbing value of 90 would reduce one by 9.
At the end of turn the pollution smog entities would have a strength of 40.2 (50 - 0.8 - 9) and 49.2 (50 - 0..
It would appear as 89.4 on the tile.

Buildings are built on terrain.
This terrain affects pollution generation even AFTER a building is built on it.
Terraformed terrain that is built upon, is cloned! Thus giving you a free terraformed hex. (I don't know if this is intended. Recent Mantis notes from Chris says that he is removing this.)
This built upon terraformed terrain also contributes toward atmospheric makeup and does not count for planetary rage.

Pollution Displays
Pollution is displayed differently in various locations.
On buildings and terraformed terrain, pollution and pollution scrubbing are 1/10 the actual values.
On the gui planetary rage and pollution list it as the actual value.
On the hex information display for Pollution at Location Pollution is displayed as 1/10 the actual value, but is also capped to 100.

Discussion
Many buildings do not benefit from Hazmat Scrubbing in isolation. For example, the Factory does not produce enough pollution to benefit from a hazmat station. It will stabilize at 1.90 units with 33 hexes, 1.35 for 4 hexes, and 0.55 in 4 hexes. The land already removes the pollution very quickly. Because pollution is removed prior to new pollution generation leads to confusion. Hazmats do help when you have consolidated pollution producers or heavier pollution producers. Adding hazmat coverage to the Factory would change the smog to 1.35 units on all 37 hexes. Not a very large change.

Some buildings turn pollution into crime. These buildings should be isolated because the generation of crime from pollution is currently very high. A Science Lab produces 2.63 pollution on itself, 2.63 to downwind adjacent buildings, and 1.71 to upwind adjacent buildings. Then a single Science Lab creates 26.3 crime for itself. If you have two adjacent you are looking at 40 to 50 crime depending upon positioning. If you have 3, 60 to 75. These values were found in a .613 Fenyn game.

With larger concentrations of polluters this changes somewhat. If you have Hazmat coverage of a polluter, then you will generally not benefit from stacking more Hazmats (Sorry Misery). That's because the Hazmat removal strength is so high. However, since I haven't gotten the formula out, I can't actually demonstrate exactly how it works.

Pollution danger comes from two places.
Not having enough Scrubbing to deal with the accumulation. 
Immediate Pollution Generation causing crime. Having polluters that are affected by crime in the same region is very dangerous.
Note that these values are in flux and some buildings are immune to both crime and pollution.
**Note** Chris is already meaning to change the order of scrubbing and generation, he just hasn't gotten around to it.

Recommendations for .813
Keep Science Labs separated by at least 1 hex, preferably 2. You won't be able to easily get the science adjacency bonuses, but I've never managed to get them when I tried to.
Have Scrubbing for your Pollution generators, but only 1 is sufficient in most cases. Until Factory production becomes a viable income source, density shouldn't be an issue.
Build on your terraformed terrain.
Remember that Scrubbing Value is actually the listed divided by 10.

Examples
Science Lab producing 120 Pollution in Area 1
The situation will stabilize in 3 turns. There will be minor changes due to random movement, but it is usually negligible.

Note: Uploading so post is not eaten by server problems that have been cropping up lately.

[crazyroosterman]

huh this is pretty interesting I didn't know hazmats cleaned before the pollution out put started never really even thought about it to be honest I wonder if its the same with the felyns teras also having immunity to diseases caused by pollution in theory makes pollution management much less important so I guess you could go willy nilly with your pollution out put as long as you kept it away from the buildings which turn it into crime in theory also I personally think that something about factory needs a small buff because at the moment there just a bit meh I also think that the sea military buildings need a small reduction cost their just so expensive compared to for example helipads.

[x4000]

Pollution scrubbing should happen after pollution generation -- the fact that it happens prior is an old rule that should be changed.  Can you mantis that, since we don't have time for that immediately?

The only other things I'd add is that pollution blows in the wind from west to east one tile per turn, with a randomized north-south spread possible.  Pollution is blocked by mountain ranges and will collect on their west side.

You always want your polluters to the east of your city, and then you'll be in much less need of hazmat.  Are you to the east of the acutians?  Yuck!  Well, eventually get a terrain riser and put some mountains between them and you, and you won't have to worry with so much hazmat anymore.

Isn't it fun being a redshirt where stuff is not fully documented?

[ptarth]

Pollution scrubbing should happen after pollution generation -- the fact that it happens prior is an old rule that should be changed.  Can you mantis that, since we don't have time for that immediately?

Acknowledged. I know you said this before. I'm still not sure what it will do in the long run. I need to think about it.

The only other things I'd add is that pollution blows in the wind from west to east one tile per turn, with a randomized north-south spread possible.  Pollution is blocked by mountain ranges and will collect on their west side.

I thought I had specified that. In this case though, "east" is slightly misleading because hexagons aren't square. From the current perspective it is actually 45 degrees to the lower right.

You always want your polluters to the east of your city, and then you'll be in much less need of hazmat.  Are you to the east of the acutians?  Yuck!  Well, eventually get a terrain riser and put some mountains between them and you, and you won't have to worry with so much hazmat anymore.

With the relative strength of the hazmat to pollution generation just overall coverage of the area is fine. With a Hazmat cleaning up 25-50 per turn and only ~3 pollution per building being generated, you'll need 8 to 15ish polluters in area to overcome a single hazmat.

Isn't it fun being a redshirt where stuff is not fully documented?

Well, that's a complicated question.

• Yes.
• I would like access to all design documents and mechanics, but understand the desire to keep it closed. Less complaints from people who don't understand them, less complaints from people who do understand them, less worry about things being exploited by other competitors, increase in interest and obsession from the community, etc.
• Personally, I'd be happier with the documents, in whatever form, so then I can see what is intended, what the underlying mechanics is, and then see if that they are the same.
• On that note, given RedQueen's work, I've been looking into breaking into the source. But that's a bit complicated.
• Care to provide the scrubbing mechanism formula?
• I've been trying to not take up your time with breaking down everything into forum posts so I can hack apart the mechanics, you see what happens when you provide a single answer.. ;p
• It amuses me that whenever I post anything, it seems that your responses are always very careful to try not to offend. I am now labelling everything with a disclaimer.

Note: This post contains content that is meant to be whimsical. Any belittlement or trivialization of complex issues is only intended to lighten the mood and does not reflect upon the merit of those positions.

[x4000]

I need to run to the dentist momentarily, but briefly:

1. Having a "formula" for pollution is not a straightforward thing, because its not a finite thing like math.  It's code that makes a lot of function calls and is more... 3D, I suppose.  So boiling it down into math-like terms is actually quite complex at times (depending on the mechanic we're talking about).

2. I wouldn't mind giving you access to the design docs, but the main one is 248 pages long, 98,000 words, and contains about 25% outdated or conflicting information.  Possibly more than that.  So there would be a huge amount of confusion resulting, too.

[Pumpkin]

Isn't it fun being a redshirt where stuff is not fully documented?

Well, my question was "is the pollution mechanism" intended to be clear, or is the player suppose to understand it as game(s) go(es)? Reading this, I think you plan on documenting pollution mechanism in game. For example, you said the wind always go the same direction; is that supposed to be clearly said somewhere in the game, subtly hinted (player can see sort of tiny leaves or newspapers in the wind that always go in the same direction), or "you'll understand when you'll be east to Acutians"?

[x4000]

Isn't it fun being a redshirt where stuff is not fully documented?

Well, my question was "is the pollution mechanism" intended to be clear, or is the player suppose to understand it as game(s) go(es)? Reading this, I think you plan on documenting pollution mechanism in game. For example, you said the wind always go the same direction; is that supposed to be clearly said somewhere in the game, subtly hinted (player can see sort of tiny leaves or newspapers in the wind that always go in the same direction), or "you'll understand when you'll be east to Acutians"?

Overall it is meant to be as clear as what I've just told you.  In terms of trying to minmax via explicit formulas, it's not supposed to be remotely THAT clear.   There is actually a Fenyn special ability (when you are talking to them diplomatically, not playing as them) which lets you reverse the wind direction.  So one could deduce the wind thing from that.

In terms of the wind direction being communicated better, there are a variety of things that can be done there, and some of that involves some notes on hazmat and on the pollution overlay itself.  Clicking most of the icons on the top bar I intend to make open up a thing that has a little min-wiki article all about their subject.  So there's that, too.  In terms of people actually figuring it out without text, we have had the suggestion of having some arrows added to the pollution overlays when they are shown, and that's definitely on our list of things we want to add, too.  That should implicitly at least make people wonder.

Also, on the tooltip for mountains, I suppose we'll have it note that it blocks pollution, so that people can figure THAT out more quickly, too.  Ideally it is documented from here to there and everywhere in between, so that base things like that can't really be missed.

[tbrass]

I need to run to the dentist momentarily, but briefly:
...
2. I wouldn't mind giving you access to the design docs, but the main one is 248 pages long, 98,000 words, and contains about 25% outdated or conflicting information.  Possibly more than that.  So there would be a huge amount of confusion resulting, too.

Chris, I am not sure if that was a generalized invitation, but I, for one, would be fascinated to see the design docs. It would be really interesting to understand your original vision and how it is changing over time!

Sorry to hear about the dentist. Hopefully it is not because you are grinding your teeth over mantis! Regardless of the cause, perhaps this will help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM

[ptarth]

Rather than all the pollution mechanics, can you just specify the Scrubbing Formula (at least the basic version)?

Otherwise I'll have to go through and collect data from a variety of situations. Run a regression with a Box-Cox or something and then come up with something that's close enough. You don't want to have me do work, do you? 

As per Mountains. I think in that 100k population save I uploaded I had trash dumps adjacent to the mountains that were spawning pollution on the other side of the mountains. If the code only checks for mountains when moving the pollution and not in the spawning checks, that would explain it.

[Captain Jack]

Actually Chris, why not take a page out of Civ and do a Civopedia, explaining some of the obtuse mechanics and in-universe concepts? Make it persistent across games (tie it to achievements?) and it could be a fun thing for players to unlock.

[ptarth]

Actually Chris, why not take a page out of Civ and do a Civopedia, explaining some of the obtuse mechanics and in-universe concepts? Make it persistent across games (tie it to achievements?) and it could be a fun thing for players to unlock.

Documentation is hard, very hard. And not fun, very not fun. And adds a ton of overhead and costs, that most players don't care about. So...

[x4000]

I need to run to the dentist momentarily, but briefly:
...
2. I wouldn't mind giving you access to the design docs, but the main one is 248 pages long, 98,000 words, and contains about 25% outdated or conflicting information.  Possibly more than that.  So there would be a huge amount of confusion resulting, too.

Chris, I am not sure if that was a generalized invitation, but I, for one, would be fascinated to see the design docs. It would be really interesting to understand your original vision and how it is changing over time!

Sorry to hear about the dentist. Hopefully it is not because you are grinding your teeth over mantis! Regardless of the cause, perhaps this will help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM

The dentist was about an erosion I had one one of my teeth, creating a cavity.  I've had bad acid reflux for years, but it's gotten worse with the stresses of Arcen.  It took a few years of medicating and checking with my ENT and then GI doc to get the dosage right and things under control.  In the meantime, there were a lot of years of it eroding my teeth in the night, causing pitting and so forth in my back teeth.  I have strong teeth and no real cavities in the classic sense (well, only two in my life), but from the erosion my back molars have a whole heck of a lot of work that has had to be done to them.  Teeth grinding in my sleep was a problem for a number of years earlier in Arcen's history, but I've managed to stop that. 

Now the problem is more jaw clenching, which causes headaches and which they are worried will cause my teeth to crack from the stress of that eventually.  From stress I tend to clench a lot, and I have to actively stop myself from doing so.  A lot of it is also not really job stress, but the maddening frustration that 4 year old kids can be.

Anyway, the thing today was pretty minor, and is mostly a residual thing from past acidic wear.  My teeth aren't actively wearing down any longer, thank goodness, but it's down to the dentonite in a lot of areas and so that does make those spots more prone to traditional cavities since there isn't the normal enamel there to protect it.  It's all on the molars on the actual bite surfaces, so at least it's not a cosmetic thing.  And even with the dentonite exposed, I haven't had too many issues.  I have super strong teeth apparently, but they are "the teeth of a 60 year old," which kind of sucks given I am 32.  I wish I'd caught the acid reflux sooner, but I didn't realize what it was in time.

Wow long tangent and possibly TMI.  Anyway, the dentist is FUNN!!, but it doesn't bother me much.  In and out in an hour in that case, and no real pain.

In terms of the design doc, I'd have to check over that pretty carefully before releasing that, actually.  Now that I think about it, there are some passive-aggressive notes back and forth between Keith and I, which aren't really appropriate to share.  We get on great, but there were a number of times where I didn't hold up my end of not trying to cook in his kitchen, and that led to understandable frustration on his part.  And other things, always quickly resolved and without resentment, but still a private matter between two colleagues/friends rather than something to share with the world.  Almost all of the doc was written by me, so the passive aggression is unfortunately mine, and while that doesn't reflect great on me that's not my primary concern.

Anyway, at some point I will do a writeup of how things changed over time for sure.  There are also some SERIOUS story spoilers in that document that I'm not ready to reveal yet, heh.

Just getting off of work, and haven't had much time to digest everything, but since you are still here and answering questions Chris (or when you get back from the dentist since that is probably wise):

Rather than all the pollution mechanics, can you just specify the Scrubbing Formula (at least the basic version)?

Otherwise I'll have to go through and collect data from a variety of situations. Run a regression with a Box-Cox or something and then come up with something that's close enough. You don't want to have me do work, do you? 

It's just a flat subtraction.  So if the pollution on a tile would be 20, and the pollution scrubber is 2, then the pollution on that tile is 18.

There may be confusion or complexity there because I'm not sure if that's before or after it blows in the wind.  For purposes of blocking pollution, you'd really want it to be before blowing, which I think it is.  But for purposes of clarity, you'd want it to be after.  So that tile might emit 20 on its tile and the tile to the west, and that tile scrubs 2.  The pollution is scrubbed to 18 on that tile, but then blows one to the east.  The tile from the west then blows over to the scrubber tile, and shows as a full 20 as if no scrubbing happened.  But the tile to the east has the 18 properly... except that it might have gone NE or SW depending on the wind conditions, AND other pollution from the N or S of that tile might have blown in.  So you can get numbers that are quite jumbled in the end result.

From first cause it all makes sense I think, but when you're talking about practical results it's, well... like predicting the weather.

Actually Chris, why not take a page out of Civ and do a Civopedia, explaining some of the obtuse mechanics and in-universe concepts? Make it persistent across games (tie it to achievements?) and it could be a fun thing for players to unlock.

I'm familiar with the Civolopedia, but it seems to mostly be a reference to me that is searchable and all centralized.  I guess that is certainly helplful, but it's also tricky.  Not sure if that is doable or not, and if we'll have time.  I prefer to give in-context information when possible versus making people go to a reference document that is somewhere completely else.  What do you mean about the tying of it to achievements?  That could be interesting for sure, but I'm trying to understand what all you have in mind.  I love achievements that make people dig deeper, so if you or anyone else have ideas you want to mantis, or if you'd rather just discuss them here first, that's cool with me!

[ptarth]

Anyway, at some point I will do a writeup of how things changed over time for sure.  There are also some SERIOUS story spoilers in that document that I'm not ready to reveal yet, heh.

Understandable

It's just a flat subtraction...

Hmm... I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm not seeing it that way. I'm pretty sure I've accounted for the wind, before/after smog removal, etc. But it's all empirical, so I need more in game data before I can characterize the behaviors I'm seeing.

**time passes**

AH. I see. What is happening is that pollution doesn't merge. So if the wind "blows" two pollution units into the same hex, they still exist separately. They can later separate and move independently. They are also individually reduced by Scrubbing (perhaps not in some cases, I have an exception. I also need to test if hazmat removal is doubled.). That plus combined with Scrubbing Values being 1/10 of the listed value is what was wrong with the model

[Captain Jack]

Well, it's basically the Civilopedia mixed with the Codex from Mass Effect. Certain actions and discoveries (ie achievements) unlock persistent entries in the Big Book of Planetary Colonization. For example, fully translating a language could give an anecdote about that language. Militarily subjugating a race copies their (AI) military buildings into the book, while economic dominance could do the same for their population centers. Winning a game as a race gets you information on their racial tendencies (IE Felyn terraforming). The special victory conditions unlock information tangent to that victory.

A lot of this could and should be copied from elsewhere, or summarized. The building stuff should be the ctrl+click panes in their entirety, for example, while what you get from the Cobalt Bomber could be a further explanation of the principles behind the bomb. Or it could talk about previous civilizations on the planet (presumably that destroyed themselves with superweapons).

[ptarth]

Okay, I think I've captured all the pollution mechanics. I'm not seeing any more aberrant behaviors. The initial post has been updated with the documented system.

The next question is: When is pollution worth it?

As it stands, pollution isn't worth having. It provides increasingly worsening penalties. It can be entirely removed, especially since Chris is putting the scrubbing after the generation. In effect all towns will be designed the same, to be carbon-neutral. As Chris has said in another thread, (paraphrased) there should be some pollution around as the cost of doing business. Currently, there just isn't anything.

I was going to have an impressive list here listing ways of increasing the pollution, but the ones I had didn't seem to pan out. My best idea is to create high density and low density factories and rebalance commerce. Low density factories would be the preferred industry for Peltians and Fenyns. It would produce half the amount of crowns, goods, and pollution. High density for Krolim and Burlusts would produce double the crowns, good, and pollution. Alternatively, perhaps, a 75% reduction and 300% increase in pollution for them. Also, replacing Hazmats for the Fenyn with their terraformed terrain that offers hazmat like (radius 1) scrubbing.