Author Topic: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion  (Read 3532 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2015, 08:29:54 pm »
Right, I agree that go-everywhere exploration in terms of your actual buildings is not a good goal.  There should be a variety of temptations out there, and you choose the ones that are most interesting to you.  Not quite so binary of a choice as in AI War in many ways, but same general idea.

In terms of why I'm not ready to share yet, it's usually because I don't 100% have every aspect of an idea fleshed out yet, and I'm not really prepared to debate/discuss it without further independent thought first. ;)
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Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2015, 08:46:41 pm »
The problem with giving problems to scouts is that either this is automated or it isn't.  The only reason to manually scout at the moment is if you want to look somewhere specific, which I think it is as it should be.  Otherwise you're just determining rate of scouting by how many stations you build.  Having scouts have a potential for failure really rubs me the wrong way, because it means I probably have to start paying attention to scouts, which I don't like.

Having an incentive to keep having scouts long-term, even after the map is fully scouted, has been brought up before.  Possibly having them have a chance for discovering rare stuff is good.

For the resources, most of them are extraordinarily rare, so having hard gating on them is not a great thing because in some games they won't even exist.  Having really solid reasons to go over to the natural wonders and to the resources and capture them is certainly the goal, though.  I had a flurry of ideas on that front after this thread popped up on my radar, but I'm not quite ready to share yet.
maybe have my idea as a an option to turn of or on?. (personally I just don't feel like theirs a reason to scout manually at the moment and having some incentive to have to pay attention to were I'm scouting at times would be nice then again maybe I'm just strange since I'm one of those odd people who actually liked sending scouts out in civ 5)
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Offline ptarth

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2015, 09:05:24 pm »
Count me as opposed to this.

What is exploration in a 4x?
MOO - Move ships around to discover planets, star lanes, locations of other races. Occasionally proc a special event.
Civ - Move units around to discover resources, other civilizations, goodie huts. Goodie huts proc a special event.
MOM - Move units around to discover resources, cities, other civilizations. No special events.
Endlesss X - Move units around to discover planets, star lanes, locations of other races. Occasionally proc a special event that leads to death by pirates.
Galactic Civ, Star Drive, etc, etc, etc.

SBR doesn't have the unit aspect of this, but other wise has the basic, discover other civilizations and resource aspects down. Special events are optional. So I think that while the Exploration is rather shallow, it isn't any less shallow than other games.
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Offline tbrass

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2015, 09:57:16 pm »
More seriously, I haven't actually found the lack of exploration incentive to be much of an issue -- I have enough problems at home without sending forth scouts to bring me exciting foreign problems to deal with as well. I suspect resources and natural wonders will change this somewhat, but I don't think it's necessary to encourage anyone to explore the whole map the way one tends to do in AI War where an extra ARS or something could make a real difference to survival.

My concern is that right now exploration is... uninspired. Excitement in games comes from making choices - do you go right or left, jump or uppercut, rock paper or scissors, learn a spell or improve swordplay. Right now exploration just is. You can take or leave it. And if you take it, everything is automated, there is no reason to do anything manually.

Chris - the idea of scout loss is not to force people to do manual scouting, but add some potential, occasional benefit to manual scouting.

Offline ptarth

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2015, 10:43:27 pm »
Don't all contemporary 4xs have a automatic explore command for units?
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Offline tbrass

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2015, 12:35:07 am »
Ptarth - I don't want to eliminate automatic scouting -- I don't think anyone is suggesting that. CRM goes so far as to say he'd want the ability to shut off auto.

Currently, I like the fact that exploration is automatic but I have incentive to explore in certain directions rather than others. And beyond that, I'd like exploration to be a bigger part of the game. . .

Offline ptarth

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2015, 01:28:59 am »
Sorry, I try to be brief and sometimes that means my point is lost.

I don't like the failed scouting idea. It just delays things a turn, I'm not really noticing when it happens anyway. I'm certainly not going to do anything about it, plus there isn't really anything I could do about it (except send another scout, which is going to happen next turn anyway).

My point about automated scouting is that exploration in 4x games is boring. And it has been generally accepted that this is the case, and so it is automated.

Your major focus of exploration is finding out where the other races are at, identifying choke points, and finding important resources. Then expanding to kill them all. Currently SBR does this. There is currently a problem with mobility and second city generation, but the fundamentals are there.

I do occasionally direct my scouting personally, when I run into neighbour or when I want to explore in a certain direction for resource or expansion purposes. Otherwise I leave it on auto all game long.

The question is, what would make exploration interesting? And I don't know if anyone has an answer for it. Civ & Co tried the goodie hut strategy, guiding scouts out to find the bonuses. That makes things pretty swingy, but I guess it is interesting. Endless space has such large variability in goodie huts that you can lose the game if you pop one. Sword of the Stars had the same problem.

Perhaps the requirement for Exploration to become interesting lies in Expansion. One of the many highly controversial things I've thought is that we need roads. If we could build a chain of roads quickly across the map to establish new cities next to areas of interest, that would be interesting.  We can technically do that will helipads, however there are a couple of problems: helipads are expensive, generate crime, and generate pollution. In general they require a significant investment to become functional. One that I have a hard time making. With roads I would be more willing to pave my way to distant resources. I would also like the ability to make a starter pack for my new city at these distant resources. However, the setup is troublesome. I'd need engineers (lots of pollution and citizens needed for employment), hazmats (to fix the pollution), Riot Police to stop the crime, etc, etc, etc.... Actually, reading all of that... Perhaps what I want is for the Civic Centers to be better than the basic Lander. To actually be as good as a level 3+ lander, instead of the tiny thing it starts with. Or give us the ability to pump resources into the city from our main city. Perhaps when a Civic Center is placed it claims all friendly buildings within 5-10 hexes of itself? That make growing a new city much easier.

Another idea would be to increase the size of the natural wonders. Currently 1 hex, maximum affected tiles is 6. What if the wonders were 1-6 in size. That's suddenly a much larger and significant bonus to explore. I'd probably even go out of my way to do something about them. Perhaps the same for resource clusters? But then resources aren't a functional part of the economy yet.
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Offline tombik

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2015, 05:20:06 am »
What I can think of an additional usage for scouts is basically Fog of War.

In the current system once you explore a tile, it is there , you see it, and actually it provides informaiton about which enemy does what, crushes who etc.

What I can think of it is like the following:

- Each tile has 1/5 chance of being terra incognito again. (we dont know what lies in there)
- If enemy owns that tile. then the chance if 1/3.
- If enemy builds some specific structures for hiding (specific to Boarines maybe?) then the chance is 1/2.

The numbers does not make sense I know, but this approach can make even non-automated scouts sense sometimes. In current setup, there is basically no reason to not automate them.

And one can even think of some technology for decreasing this chances etc.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 08:17:55 am by tombik »

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2015, 11:53:08 am »
Ptarth - I don't want to eliminate automatic scouting -- I don't think anyone is suggesting that. CRM goes so far as to say he'd want the ability to shut off auto.
I have to correct you there having the option to turn of automatic scouting wouldn't really mean anything I was referring to my idea of scouts having a chance to fail I can see that some people would find that annoying but I would personally like that so I suggested It as a option that can disabled or enabled.
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Offline x4000

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2015, 02:13:44 pm »
It's a tough sort of thing, I understand that.  I am hoping that the variety of resources and natural wonders that we now have will make the inspiration to travel to different locations a big thing.  Having several footholds around the map, based on what I've discovered, is the more exciting thing to me.  Doing the actual scouting myself is less so, because I always just put things on auto-scout except in the super early game in other 4X games.  And so here I made it with the explorer camps at first to provide that experience early on.

In terms of a feeling of excitement in discovering things, my thought has been that perhaps there could be little events or something that you find when going to natural wonders with a scout, or something like that.  But even that gets funky.  So perhaps by getting over there and building a building next to it.  With chains of seaports and helipads that makes for interesting terrain navigation, which is a form of exploration that interests me (dodging enemies to go find something unknown -- in this case to unlock some secret random bonus from the natural wonder that is separate from whatever the adjacency bonuses are.  I think that would give me personally a really good sense of exploration, without any changes to the scouts whatsoever.
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Offline nas1m

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2015, 02:24:08 pm »
In terms of a feeling of excitement in discovering things, my thought has been that perhaps there could be little events or something that you find when going to natural wonders with a scout, or something like that.  But even that gets funky.  So perhaps by getting over there and building a building next to it.  With chains of seaports and helipads that makes for interesting terrain navigation, which is a form of exploration that interests me (dodging enemies to go find something unknown -- in this case to unlock some secret random bonus from the natural wonder that is separate from whatever the adjacency bonuses are.  I think that would give me personally a really good sense of exploration, without any changes to the scouts whatsoever.
Definitely sounds like a worthwhile addition to me.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: 3X, not 4X: eXploration - improvement discussion
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2015, 02:51:01 pm »
Chris, take a peek at Offworld Trading Company.  The exploration phase is generally pretty short, but it has a set of mechanics that are quite solid.  Gives the player both interesting choice, informed choice, and the option to let the passive scan do its thing.