Author Topic: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951  (Read 5391 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2013, 08:04:10 pm »
I had looked at the siege units in depth with the shift to AP, but not the archery or barracks.  The mythological needed a buff anyhow, so it's good they now have it.  Anyway, the changes coming up:

* Some rebalance to archery range units:
** Toxotes: AP attack cost 3 -> 5
** Akontistai: AP attack cost 3 -> 7
** Lithovoloi: AP attack cost 3 -> 7
** Norse Archer: AP attack power down (but still same AP attack cost)
** Axe Thrower: AP attack cost 3 -> 4
** Longbowman: AP attack cost 3 -> 2
** Hippo Toxotes: AP attack cost 3 -> 7

* Some rebalance to barracks units:
** Peltast bacon cost increased 30%.
** Prodromos: AP attack cost 3 -> 5
** Huscarl: AP attack cost 3 -> 6
** Marauder: AP attack cost 3 -> 5

The great thing about the AP system is that it can be tuned, whereas the other system really couldn't be in terms of number of attacks; it was super binary.  So I'm quite happy with the new system, even if it's going to take some fiddling to get things ideal with it balance-wise.  I hate doing that sort of thing in the 11th hour, but it's better than switching to an AP system when non-alpha players have to relearn it.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2013, 08:08:32 pm »
I wouldn't quite call this on the 11th hour :)  Still a full day before the big show.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2013, 08:10:22 pm »
Yeah... so long as you guys beat on it lots and we actually find the balance issues, that's one thing.  But there's only so much time in the day for all of us, etc, and it's not like it's your job or something.  And the press have it in their hands (some of them), so I want to make a good impression there.  I get the impression the balance isn't so off as to be bewildering to someone new, but it's certainly not preferred when it's like that.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2013, 08:15:50 pm »
Yup, I have 24 hours available to do pretty much whatever (no job, should explain the odd hours I'm online).  Heh, my life is all kinds of mess.  Anywho.  I'm actually about to fire this last set of changes up and see what I see.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Mick

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2013, 08:16:09 pm »
I hope this isn't too much of a nerf. I really liked how fast things were getting burned down left and right, it actually made me worried that things could get out of hand if I wasn't careful.

EDIT: Ah I see siege units were untouched, so that's probably OK.

Offline x4000

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2013, 08:17:38 pm »
Thanks Cinth -- although, very sorry to hear about the circumstances there.  :(

@Mick: yeah, I'm not really trying to nerf things, but if melee become useless that's a third of our units pointless.  And with things skewed a bit more toward mythological, I think that's good.  Also, movement speed bonuses are now AP bonuses, which means that giving a boost of that sort to a unit makes them really supercharged.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2013, 08:18:54 pm »
I love how the first woe lined up for this next match is Inside Job... Greeks are already going to get messed with hard and right off the bat :)
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Misery

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2013, 08:41:49 pm »
How does enlightenment work now in regard to all the recent changes? It's a feature I have pretty much not played with at all since many many versions ago.

Same as always.  It's super useful, actually, if you can get it working between two economically-focused towns.  Then you have these strongholds that simply can't be torn down.

Incidentally... somehow this never crossed my mind before... once we took out the score stuff, enlightenment became a "you automatically win" condition because those TCs can't be destroyed.  That's still the case when the score requirement is turned off.


Wait, isnt this a bad thing though?  As I understand it, in a non-score-gated game, once you hit enlightenment.... the game is basically over, you've won, and the remaining turns become pointless.     Even in a score-gated game you could then take actions without much risk, spamming units and tokens everywhere for points.

That's how it seems to me at least, based on my understanding of it.  Though I've not messed with this mechanic at all.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2013, 09:03:32 pm »
That is until Edge of Civ or Ultima hits your "enlightened" town.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline x4000

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2013, 09:04:04 pm »
How does enlightenment work now in regard to all the recent changes? It's a feature I have pretty much not played with at all since many many versions ago.

Same as always.  It's super useful, actually, if you can get it working between two economically-focused towns.  Then you have these strongholds that simply can't be torn down.

Incidentally... somehow this never crossed my mind before... once we took out the score stuff, enlightenment became a "you automatically win" condition because those TCs can't be destroyed.  That's still the case when the score requirement is turned off.


Wait, isnt this a bad thing though?  As I understand it, in a non-score-gated game, once you hit enlightenment.... the game is basically over, you've won, and the remaining turns become pointless.     Even in a score-gated game you could then take actions without much risk, spamming units and tokens everywhere for points.

That's how it seems to me at least, based on my understanding of it.  Though I've not messed with this mechanic at all.

Yes, that is basically an accurate summation.  And I do agree that's bad.  However:

1. I view the non-score-gated games as being a bit of a sandbox mode at this point.  To SOME extent.

2. Enlightenment is hard to reach.  Really REALLY hard.  So if you can pull it off, you probably deserve the victory.  Even there, how well you win is a challenge.  Reasons diplomacy is hard:
- Diplomats are expensive, and have to walk through the war zone to do their work.
- When diplomats die in general, or buildings die in that town, enlightenment drops.
- For every embassy on the map, the bandit spawn rate goes up by 1x the number of embassies.  And you need a minimum of two embassies to do diplomacy at all.  That's a 3x bandit spawn rate right there.
- You can only have one diplomat per embassy, so if you want to hurry the process along you're going to be flooded with bandits.

3. Yay, you reached enlightenment!  Let's say.  Woes can still affect the towns in question, even destroying them.


So while I agree the "you 'automatically' win with enlightenment" thing is less than ideal, I am not too fussed about it in the short term because I think it's super hard to do on any difficulty of substance.  So I don't think it's too exploitable, and in my opinion really is almost like an alternate victory condition.  A really, really hard one.  If someone figures out how to exploit it, then obviously changes will be made.  But I've not had anyone do that yet, not even remotely.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2013, 09:07:47 pm »
Then maybe the golden fleece needs to be looked at?  50% enlightenment on use?  That either needs to be borderline crazy expensive and only usable once per game (I know Posieden is a major god).  If enlightenment should be a suitably difficult task, then this token is an extreme shortcut.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline x4000

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2013, 09:10:51 pm »
Very good point.  This should do it:

* The Golden Fleece now only grants 20 enlightenment to every town, not 50 like it was before.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2013, 09:13:49 pm »
I think I'll swap over and do a sandbox. 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2013, 10:21:03 pm »
Talaria and Chariot mention movement points still.

Gulltopper might need a quick review.  Doubled AP might be a bit much (can't see cost in sandbox).

Singasteinn: Spending movement points per attack? AP per attack.

That's what I could see in the tokens
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Winge

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.951
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2013, 10:24:58 pm »
Very good point.  This should do it:

* The Golden Fleece now only grants 20 enlightenment to every town, not 50 like it was before.

Last time I tried it, it would not actually give any enlightenment points over 50...almost like it was setting the number instead of adding it.  However, that was in the 0.8 era...
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