Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.950

[x4000]

Who loves you: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Skyward_Collapse_-_Pre-Beta_Release_Notes#Alpha_0.950

This one is some awesomesauce, I have to say.  The game is sooo much more fun all of a sudden, even for me.  And the game itself didn't really change at all.  It's almost all interface work, aside from some multiplayer polish and a few odds and ends that were reported.

Big deal stuff:

1. Placing town centers and really all buildings in general is a lot clearer and way more fun, just from an interface standpoint (no underlying rules changes).

2. Holy moly the new filters are the bee's knees.  I love these things; they help me find stuff, and they look cool.

3. Oh man was I tired of walls of popup text that I couldn't read.  That's now disabled by default, though you can turn it back on.  Now there are "battle sites" that get logged everywhere there's a fight, and which last until the next turn.  You can review everything that happened on that tile, in proper sequence, and it's way easier to understand and see.

4. Health bars!  I was skeptical -- very skeptical -- about this.  But man oh man now I'm wondering how this went so long without them.  Performance seems fine so I didn't even make them optional.  I can if someone wants/needs it.

5. Zoom!  You can get way further out now, which is useful on so many levels.

There's still more stuff I'd like to do, like the hotkeys for cycling through towns and battle sites and such, but those are comparably minor after all these other changes, I think.  Looks like we're looking good for a press build, and of course I'll be further refining things as the week progresses, anyhow.  I'm very excited about this one, if you can't tell.

[YoukaiCountry]

This update sounds great! I'll be able to try it out and give feedback in a few hours here!

[Pepisolo]

Could only have a quick play before sleeping, but wow! Probably the most impressive update I've seen. The difficulty menu looks really nice now -- the options look fun things to tweak, too (oh that was a few updates ago...still cool). Those battle marker things seem really useful, wasn't expecting those. Getting rid of all that pop-up text makes things look so much nicer. The ability to zoom out is great. Health bars are soooo useful and they look very nice! Seriously impressive polish work in this one! Haven't even played with the filters, yet. Oh, and placing a new town was so much easier with the new overlay. Really coming together nicely over the last few days. Very well done!

[Cinth]

Who loves you:

My kids for one  

Guess I'm going to comb the desert on this one (yup.. put that scene in your mind).

[Mick]

First impressions.

1) Yes, town center placement is like a million times easier now. Little things like this make it so much more of a pleasure to play.

2) Filters are cool. I think they should be a menu instead of having to toggle though them though. And having hot keys to switch to the modes (could just use the numbers) would be great.

3/4) Love health bars. LOVE THEM! I still use damage numbers though, just personal preference. Getting rid of resource numbers is nice though.

5) Neat.

This whole release feels like a watershed moment. The UI is just improved on so many levels. I think this stuff is important, and I'm very glad that it got in before the press release.

Oh, I love having the score gating goal. It really forces me to have to care a lot more about what I build. Previous versions I just kinda threw tiles around willy nilly and "survived". Can't really judge how balanced it is yet, but I think balancing scores is a lot easier than balancing a binary survive/die condition.

Speaking of which. I really hate arsonists, and I hate that in order to make ballistas I have to create the same buildings that arsonists use. I seem to get arsonists a lot more than I get ballistas (actually I'm trying to think if I EVER see a ballista).

Really need those siege units to KEPOW those buildings if I want to get points, and arsonists just kinda touch them with their torch. What happened to the building multiplier anyway? I'm better off attacking buildings with melee it seems.

EDIT: Arsonists are particularly awful when you got a bandit keep nearby. They are like lightning bugs flying into a zapper.

[chemical_art]

Decided to wade back in now that you have made some interface improvements.

Firstly...trying to update 6 patches at once was...wierd. There were no graphics on the setup launcher once the game quit, meaning I had to through trial and error press different sections of transparant sections till the game installed. But it did install fine! So it worked out.

=====Notes from tutorial game=====

resources generated from last turn would be nice:

I want it to go a step further. If you select a city, the numbers shift to within the city, as relevent, and a checkmark or something to identify if it can make a certain resource provided the resources. Would save a lot of time.

Even better for new players, that you can see what your total production would be as you place buildings. This ensures you don't miss something early on. Saves a lot of math.


Descriptions need to be fleshed out. So wheat is made into bread. Cool. But what is bread used for? Not found in the baker description.


As annoying as it is, can the tutorial be reversed? Currently the one side you are guided by needs very few resources to make military, the freeform one needs many more things to make military. Would cause less headaches to reverse them unless you want to start rebranding units. That said, Greeks should have a cheap unit avialable. Call it a peasant or something. Heck, make them use the old chapman graphic I kid.

An undo button, please, for the start. So if I make a mistake I can fix it quickly. Even if just on the tutorial.

Game said I could copy norse building, but I clearly can't. The units needing more resources, different resources, combined with a lack of an undo button, forced me to try the tutorial a lot more intensely then I would like for a first time. And seemed to give no recourse but to restart.


========

I've decided that due to limited time, I would address this game like it was some random game. Meaning when I felt the urge to quit, I would.

I quit once I realized I could not undo my greek building flaws, there was no redo button I could find, and I had no manner to retry the tutorial aside from the game explaining everything again from the very beginning.

==============

Verdict on tutorial:
1.Things are explained a lot better from start, but still flawed in things like saying you can copy the two towns.
2. In addition, as a general interface issue, not finding a method to undo the setup causes extreme aggravation.
3. Since the tutorial, as far as I can tell, isn't broken up into parts, for example, tutorial: Norse setup and tutorial: Greek setup, in addition to 1 and 2, causes game quitting unfunness.

All the other parts are just things that would help improved interface.

[Aklyon]

So many updates!

[Mick]

10 turns before the end of round one and I had about 40 units around the board all fighting. I need 3000 more points to make the gate (it's normal level). I bust out yggdrasil.

I am happy. THIS is the game that was advertised.

EDIT: Score achieved on turn 37. Phew!

EDIT2: Attached a save for anyone interested. Pure chaos.

[Cinth]

And this is why I hate the gating.

[Misery]

10 turns before the end of round one and I had about 40 units around the board all fighting. I need 3000 more points to make the gate (it's normal level). I bust out yggdrasil.

I am happy. THIS is the game that was advertised.

EDIT: Score achieved on turn 37. Phew!

EDIT2: Attached a save for anyone interested. Pure chaos.

Hm, I'm already finding that the points may be WAY out of wack here;   Yggdrasil, as far as I can tell, is the *only* way to reach certain numbers of points in certain situations (not a good thing!).   I cant imagine how in the bloody hell I could possibly get 5000 at the end of the first age WITHOUT it, because there's just no way to get that many units out that fast, and tokens arent really worth anything anymore (seriously, you could actually just take the score off of those at this point).  The low score on the tokens also seems to create alot less reason to use those:  Alot of tokens actually DO NOT result in more kills to buildings/units (and thus more points), they simply shift the balance so the kills are happening on one side as opposed to the other;  only tokens that actually CREATE more units can really affect score all that much. Alot less of a risk/reward thing now, it's back to a risk/necessity sort of idea.  Again, Yggdrasil seems to be the only exception, and MAYBE Eldhrimner to a point (but it's a muuuuuch weaker effect).   The score gates seem like they were very definitely balanced (or at least somewhat balanced, hah) around the original score values of the tokens and such.   ....is it just me, or is a single kill worth exactly FIVE points?   I'm pretty sure that's what I'm seeing here.  I hadnt really looked at the numbers that hard before.

And that's all BEFORE taking woes into effect.    My current game is starting me with the serial murderer one, which..... yeah, that aint gonna help here, heh.   Might have to actually turn the score gating off here for now.

And this is why I hate the gating.

In all honesty, I think the score gating is a great idea;  it's just not balanced currently, that's all.   It *was* pretty much JUST stuck in there, so there's bound to be some craziness with it for a time.  At least you can turn it off though.

[Mick]

10 turns before the end of round one and I had about 40 units around the board all fighting. I need 3000 more points to make the gate (it's normal level). I bust out yggdrasil.

I am happy. THIS is the game that was advertised.

EDIT: Score achieved on turn 37. Phew!

EDIT2: Attached a save for anyone interested. Pure chaos.

Hm, I'm already finding that the points may be WAY out of wack here;   Yggdrasil, as far as I can tell, is the *only* way to reach certain numbers of points in certain situations (not a good thing!).   I cant imagine how in the bloody hell I could possibly get 5000 at the end of the first age WITHOUT it, because there's just no way to get that many units out that fast, and tokens arent really worth anything anymore (seriously, you could actually just take the score off of those at this point).  The low score on the tokens also seems to create alot less reason to use those:  Alot of tokens actually DO NOT result in more kills to buildings/units (and thus more points), they simply shift the balance so the kills are happening on one side as opposed to the other;  only tokens that actually CREATE more units can really affect score all that much. Alot less of a risk/reward thing now, it's back to a risk/necessity sort of idea.  Again, Yggdrasil seems to be the only exception, and MAYBE Eldhrimner to a point (but it's a muuuuuch weaker effect).   The score gates seem like they were very definitely balanced (or at least somewhat balanced, hah) around the original score values of the tokens and such.   ....is it just me, or is a single kill worth exactly FIVE points?   I'm pretty sure that's what I'm seeing here.  I hadnt really looked at the numbers that hard before.

And that's all BEFORE taking woes into effect.    My current game is starting me with the serial murderer one, which..... yeah, that aint gonna help here, heh.   Might have to actually turn the score gating off here for now.

5000 points is just 50 building deaths. So you really need to go crazy with the siege units. If buildings don't get killed you won't get close to what you need.

[Misery]

10 turns before the end of round one and I had about 40 units around the board all fighting. I need 3000 more points to make the gate (it's normal level). I bust out yggdrasil.

I am happy. THIS is the game that was advertised.

EDIT: Score achieved on turn 37. Phew!

EDIT2: Attached a save for anyone interested. Pure chaos.

Hm, I'm already finding that the points may be WAY out of wack here;   Yggdrasil, as far as I can tell, is the *only* way to reach certain numbers of points in certain situations (not a good thing!).   I cant imagine how in the bloody hell I could possibly get 5000 at the end of the first age WITHOUT it, because there's just no way to get that many units out that fast, and tokens arent really worth anything anymore (seriously, you could actually just take the score off of those at this point).  The low score on the tokens also seems to create alot less reason to use those:  Alot of tokens actually DO NOT result in more kills to buildings/units (and thus more points), they simply shift the balance so the kills are happening on one side as opposed to the other;  only tokens that actually CREATE more units can really affect score all that much. Alot less of a risk/reward thing now, it's back to a risk/necessity sort of idea.  Again, Yggdrasil seems to be the only exception, and MAYBE Eldhrimner to a point (but it's a muuuuuch weaker effect).   The score gates seem like they were very definitely balanced (or at least somewhat balanced, hah) around the original score values of the tokens and such.   ....is it just me, or is a single kill worth exactly FIVE points?   I'm pretty sure that's what I'm seeing here.  I hadnt really looked at the numbers that hard before.

And that's all BEFORE taking woes into effect.    My current game is starting me with the serial murderer one, which..... yeah, that aint gonna help here, heh.   Might have to actually turn the score gating off here for now.

5000 points is just 50 building deaths. So you really need to go crazy with the siege units. If buildings don't get killed you won't get close to what you need.

Hmm.... still seems really unbalanced to me.  "Spam siege units" isnt a very interesting strategy, not to mention that FIFTY buildings in one go is....  well, particularly in the first age, I'd basically be creating entire cities JUST to allow them to be wrecked.   AKA, build cities made of nothing but the cheapest buildings, no military at all (so they cant defend and thus slow it down), and put them in the dumbest possible spots (the spots that make it super easy for enemies to get there).   Definitely seems to still be a major problem.

And this, of course, is assuming that the siege units do their job without being wrecked by stuff (unlikely!).   I think Cinth's screenshot there is a good example of the current unbalance.

For now, I am indeed just turning it off.... the numbers are much too screwed up at the moment.    Again though, I dont think the system itself should be changed whatsoever, I absolutely love the idea.... it's just the actual numbers that need tweaking.

[Mick]

10 turns before the end of round one and I had about 40 units around the board all fighting. I need 3000 more points to make the gate (it's normal level). I bust out yggdrasil.

I am happy. THIS is the game that was advertised.

EDIT: Score achieved on turn 37. Phew!

EDIT2: Attached a save for anyone interested. Pure chaos.

Hm, I'm already finding that the points may be WAY out of wack here;   Yggdrasil, as far as I can tell, is the *only* way to reach certain numbers of points in certain situations (not a good thing!).   I cant imagine how in the bloody hell I could possibly get 5000 at the end of the first age WITHOUT it, because there's just no way to get that many units out that fast, and tokens arent really worth anything anymore (seriously, you could actually just take the score off of those at this point).  The low score on the tokens also seems to create alot less reason to use those:  Alot of tokens actually DO NOT result in more kills to buildings/units (and thus more points), they simply shift the balance so the kills are happening on one side as opposed to the other;  only tokens that actually CREATE more units can really affect score all that much. Alot less of a risk/reward thing now, it's back to a risk/necessity sort of idea.  Again, Yggdrasil seems to be the only exception, and MAYBE Eldhrimner to a point (but it's a muuuuuch weaker effect).   The score gates seem like they were very definitely balanced (or at least somewhat balanced, hah) around the original score values of the tokens and such.   ....is it just me, or is a single kill worth exactly FIVE points?   I'm pretty sure that's what I'm seeing here.  I hadnt really looked at the numbers that hard before.

And that's all BEFORE taking woes into effect.    My current game is starting me with the serial murderer one, which..... yeah, that aint gonna help here, heh.   Might have to actually turn the score gating off here for now.

5000 points is just 50 building deaths. So you really need to go crazy with the siege units. If buildings don't get killed you won't get close to what you need.

Hmm.... still seems really unbalanced to me.  "Spam siege units" isnt a very interesting strategy, not to mention that FIFTY buildings in one go is....  well, particularly in the first age, I'd basically be creating entire cities JUST to allow them to be wrecked.   AKA, build cities made of nothing but the cheapest buildings, no military at all (so they cant defend and thus slow it down), and put them in the dumbest possible spots (the spots that make it super easy for enemies to get there).   Definitely seems to still be a major problem.

And this, of course, is assuming that the siege units do their job without being wrecked by stuff (unlikely!).   I think Cinth's screenshot there is a good example of the current unbalance.

For now, I am indeed just turning it off.... the numbers are much too screwed up at the moment.    Again though, I dont think the system itself should be changed whatsoever, I absolutely love the idea.... it's just the actual numbers that need tweaking.

The funny thing is, you're describing very well why a survival victory condition is completely broken. You have to go really out of your way just to get stuff destroyed. Notice in my save game how everything is nuts and complete destruction of a faction is not even close to happening.

[Cinth]

What I posted above was the result of woes.  Vanity was first followed by a strike.  I spent a lot of turns with no or very little combat and it carried through out the age.  I never drop mythologicals in the age of man but it was the only way to pressure those bandits. 

Killing 50 buildings in 30 turns is a crazy amount of turnover and resource cost (that happens twice over).  I can easily meet the 20k required for the final gate (I had 15k ignoring everything over the last 40 turns).  Players need time to get the ball rolling.

We should discuss this further. maybe in its own thread?

[Misery]

I'm still going with "numbers are all off".   I've actually had quite a bit of combat in my current game despite the "vanity" thing, and I have.... 65 points on turn 20.   Without the vanity it'd likely be more like 120-ish, based on how many units have been produced.

The funny thing is, you're describing very well why a survival victory condition is completely broken. You have to go really out of your way just to get stuff destroyed. Notice in my save game how everything is nuts and complete destruction of a faction is not even close to happening.

Hm, it seems like individual units and buildings actually fall pretty easily.... but as the game goes on, the sheer numbers of each keep going up.   The more buildings there are, the harder it is to destroy the other guys completely... but the more UNITS there are, the more of a crowded mess the map gets, and the less building destruction is possible.

Overall then, I do agree with you on that one;  it's part of the reason why I love the score gate idea so much.  I get that the idea of the game is that if one side gets too strong, they'll start snowballing over the other side, eventually leading to destruction, but this is actually a pretty slow process and so far, not too hard to stop.   It's actually pretty easy to bolster the unit count of a given side, as military buildings (and heck, new cities entirely) are pretty easy to make.  You can also use mythological units of course, but not really in big numbers.... it's easy to get big numbers of human units to add to a side though.   And of course it's not JUST these.... you've got things like the big god powers that can fix things fast.  Heimdall's "kill everything" horn for instance can do this.

EDIT:   And there's also bandits!  Logically bandits should add to the danger, but I find that they tend to instead add to the DISTRACTION:  Units fighting bandits are NOT attacking the other side and thus not throwing off the balance at all.

I have to wonder if a different condition other than the "total destruction" one is necessary (and the score gate would be left in place).  Because you're right, it seems like it just doesnt quite work that way.  Not from my experience so far anyway.   I dont have any suggestions on what such a condition might be though.

The score one though is the one that interests me the most anyway.