Author Topic: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804  (Read 9479 times)

Offline Misery

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2013, 11:45:34 pm »
I've been out of touch with development for a while here, so I may not have anything useful to say. But in general I will mention that I'm the type of person for whom points don't work at all as a motivator. They're just too arbitrary. I can't see much interest in score attack style games. I play through it once and I'm done. I just can't get even remotely interested in playing it again for a high score. If the points actually do something, anything, that's more interesting. If you have to get score > X to unlock a new gun/hat/whatever then that gives some purpose to it. But if, at the end, your only reward for scoring X points is having scored X points... well that's just too arbitrary for me to even understand.

Probably also doesn't help that a lot of games tack on a lot of pointless zeroes to the end of your score. I never did get that concept. That just takes the arbitrary and nonsensical nature of scores and really brings it front and center. But again, I don't really know much about this particular game aside from the basic marketing releases, so maybe there's something I missed that makes this whole diatribe of mine rather pointless. (rimshot)

That's the beauty of a scoring system though:  The player doesnt *have* to concern themselves with it if they dont want to, yet it adds alot more for those that DO like it.   It's a win/win situation, so long as the core gameplay doesnt attempt to FORCE players to get good scores (and it's very, very rare that they do).

In my case, alot of games simply dont have enough to them without it.  Like the shmups.   It's one thing to 1cc one of those.... that's cool and all, but it's not anywhere near as good (or as impressive) as beating it while at the same time scoring very high.   Particularly considering that scoring in those usually involves great risk, and takes great skill to do.   The point of scoring systems like that is usually challenge & accomplishment, as well as raising the skill ceiling.  Beating one while scoring high is always *much* more difficult than just beating it, and when the scoring is balanced enough, there's ALWAYS something you can do to improve your game even further.   It gets even better when you can compare and compete with other players.   And on top of all of that, it really dramatically increases the replay value.   A game like, say, Akai Katana (a danmaku shmup made by Cave), while a good shmup, is very easy to beat if played only for survival;  there's little challenge there when it's played like that, and it just does not take long to get good enough to beat the game.   Without the scoring in place, this would mean a VERY short game, after which there's literally nothing else to do with it.  That game though is designed from the ground up to be played for score, and it makes a MASSIVE difference.  It goes from being short and much too easy and simple, to very deep, challenging, and quite the time sink, as it takes much practice indeed to get good at it.   I can put hours and hours into that game, and yet still have plenty further that I can go with it, and this is a concept that I just love, and I'm definitely not the only one.


But with this game, it's a bit more than that.   The core of this game is the idea of maintaining balance against the constant imbalances that YOU purposely create.   That's a very, very interesting concept, and it works.... BUT, there *has* to be motivation there.   The game needs to give me reason to do things that screw up the balance, thus taking big risks.   If it's JUST a "fulfill win condition" game.... there's not much reason for me to throw in things that create the challenge that I'm supposed to use strategy to overcome.   There's bandits and all, sure, but that's it.... and past that, I've found it's actually not that hard to maintain balance, by simply keeping the overall power level of red and blue at about the same point, while not using major power shifters that can tilt it too much.

Heck, that's one problem right there:  Without enough REASON to tilt the balance, alot of the larger, more powerful things kinda break down, as they lose their purpose.   And this is a shame, because I went and had a look at what some of these new things do, and they're pretty freaking cool.  But during a game where the point is simply to last to the end, there's next to no reason to USE most of these super-powered items.... it's just not logical at this point.



I really dont think I can stress enough that there are ALOT of really, really strong reasons to keep a scoring system in the game as a whole.   The scoring wouldnt be perfectly balanced at first, obviously.... but it's the sort of thing that can just be tweaked over time, and would also be very EASY to tweak (as it's basically just changing some numbers around).  And really, there simply arent any downsides to doing it.

And beyond all that.... the more players this game can appeal to, the more it has a chance to SELL to.   Adding things like this only increases the value of the game to players that like such things.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2013, 11:57:52 pm »
Well said Misery.

In general without scoring, it will inevitably be a race toward to bottom of doing the bare minimal to win, so more and more things will have to be written to try to make the bottom not so low,  while with scoring there will be always be encouragement to try new things and to take more risks.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2013, 12:13:28 am »
Well said Misery.

In general without scoring, it will inevitably be a race toward to bottom of doing the bare minimal to win, so more and more things will have to be written to try to make the bottom not so low,  while with scoring there will be always be encouragement to try new things and to take more risks.


Exactly.

And the thing about taking risks in this game:   is that it's not just challenging, but also just FUN.   It to me is what makes the gameplay concepts really click and become awesome.  If the game gives me some encouragement to use such and such crazy mythical item that gives the blue guys great power over the reds for a time, that can be pretty darn entertaining.... and then both entertaining and challenging to then RECOVER from it and achieve balance again, possibly using some of red's own crazy mythical crap to attain this.... which could then push the balance the OTHER way, causing more mayhem and more challenge..... bloody brilliant, really.

But it just doesnt happen without that motivation.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2013, 12:16:23 am »
It's a win/win situation, so long as the core gameplay doesnt attempt to FORCE players to get good scores (and it's very, very rare that they do).
It isn't win/win if the scoring is the hook to keep you playing.  Then its lose/win.  People who care about their score get a re-playable game, everyone else gets a one-shot.  In most cases, Achievements are superior hooks to scores anyway.  Not to mention in the early stages of a game a lot is going to be changing balance-wise.  As a result, any score system they tried to implement would be largely arbitrary.  Until the game balance settles more, we aren't really going to know what's worth a lot of points and what's cheap.  They've got a ton to do, quite a bit of it balancing.  I don't think trying to force out a weakly balance point system is useful.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2013, 12:20:33 am »
It's a win/win situation, so long as the core gameplay doesnt attempt to FORCE players to get good scores (and it's very, very rare that they do).
It isn't win/win if the scoring is the hook to keep you playing.  Then its lose/win.  People who care about their score get a re-playable game, everyone else gets a one-shot.  In most cases, Achievements are superior hooks to scores anyway.  Not to mention in the early stages of a game a lot is going to be changing balance-wise.  As a result, any score system they tried to implement would be largely arbitrary.  Until the game balance settles more, we aren't really going to know what's worth a lot of points and what's cheap.  They've got a ton to do, quite a bit of it balancing.  I don't think trying to force out a weakly balance point system is useful.

Better then having no hook at all.

No score really cuts off the hook of a balance of power at the knees.
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Offline Greywolf22

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2013, 12:57:56 am »
What if instead of each side getting a score, why not simply have an overall score of how it's played?  A score for each side almost feels like (to me at least), that I'm playing a two player game against myself.  I'm no opposed to not having a score at all either, but a scoring mechanic of some sort may appeal to more people.

Offline Misery

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2013, 01:00:55 am »
It's a win/win situation, so long as the core gameplay doesnt attempt to FORCE players to get good scores (and it's very, very rare that they do).
It isn't win/win if the scoring is the hook to keep you playing.  Then its lose/win.  People who care about their score get a re-playable game, everyone else gets a one-shot.  In most cases, Achievements are superior hooks to scores anyway.  Not to mention in the early stages of a game a lot is going to be changing balance-wise.  As a result, any score system they tried to implement would be largely arbitrary.  Until the game balance settles more, we aren't really going to know what's worth a lot of points and what's cheap.  They've got a ton to do, quite a bit of it balancing.  I don't think trying to force out a weakly balance point system is useful.

Ah, but the exact same could be said about the achievement system.

To some players, it means alot.  I can understand this.

To others.... like myself.... it's utterly worthless. I ignore those, as I always have.  Frankly, I'd like it if games gave me the option to simply turn the accursed thing off.    Of all things I dislike in gaming, those are the absolute peak of it.   No amount of explanations or reasons will ever convince me otherwise.  I've loathed them since the moment they first appeared all those years ago.

Yet, adding achievements is still, even to me, a win-win situation, as with the scoring.... because I dont *have* to use them.  I can indeed utterly ignore them, and that wont impact the game for me at all.  It'll still be just as good to me without it.  Yet they will improve it for others.


You do not yourself have to understand why a system/mechanic/whatever like the scoring is a good idea for it to BE a good idea.   Part of the point is that it opens the game up to more players.   You may think the scoring arbitrary, but others will disagree.   And part of MY point is.... if you dont like the scoring, simply ignore it.   Hell, they could put an option in to simply turn it off.  There's little reason not to.    It's only a win-lose situation if it honestly impacts your gameplay to ignore it.... and since you seem to simply not care, and also since the game never forces any of it on you, that will never be the case.   But it *will* open the game up to more people if these things are included.  That's a simple fact.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2013, 01:12:51 am »
I'm just not understanding the point of playing the game without a score, or without some kind of win/lose system in its place.

Let's say that you just play to play...and you beat the game after 3 tries. Yay! Okay now what? Do I play it again and try something new? If I beat it the second time, how do I know if I did any better than the first time? If I play it a 3rd time, how do I know I did any better than the second time? Am I just playing to play? How can I even tell if I'm getting better? Does"better" even exist without a score or objective?

Seems something is missing, I probably just don't understand some aspect of the plan.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2013, 01:18:42 am »
I'm just not understanding the point of playing the game without a score, or without some kind of win/lose system in its place.

Let's say that you just play to play...and you beat the game after 3 tries. Yay! Okay now what? Do I play it again and try something new? If I beat it the second time, how do I know if I did any better than the first time? If I play it a 3rd time, how do I know I did any better than the second time? Am I just playing to play? How can I even tell if I'm getting better? Does"better" even exist without a score or objective?

Seems something is missing, I probably just don't understand some aspect of the plan.


Yeah, same here.   Not to mention, when I play it I always get the impression that it was designed from the ground up to be played with scoring or something along that line in place, since the challenges faced by the player are most of the time also purposely created by the player.   And why create those challenging situations in the first place?  Because it gets you something, which originally was a higher score.   Makes perfect sense to me.... doesnt really make sense without it.

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 02:24:56 am »
Different question for score-supporters:
 Is a broken-scoring system without high-scores and online-sharing better than no scoring system at release? You can't fix a broken score-board unless you invalidate all previous achievements - however, you can add in a scoreboard with a more balanced scoring system after release.

 The current problem is that scores for different activities do not reflect their difficulty at all.

Offline Misery

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2013, 02:30:39 am »
Different question for score-supporters:
 Is a broken-scoring system without high-scores and online-sharing better than no scoring system at release? You can't fix a broken score-board unless you invalidate all previous achievements - however, you can add in a scoreboard with a more balanced scoring system after release.

 The current problem is that scores for different activities do not reflect their difficulty at all.


I believe Tigersfan mentioned somewhere that the current score values and such were all just placeholders;  AKA the actual coding and mechanics of it are in place, but none of the values have really been set yet.

And yeah, additions to it can be made down the line if need be, I think.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2013, 02:40:25 am »
I believe Tigersfan mentioned somewhere that the current score values and such were all just placeholders;  AKA the actual coding and mechanics of it are in place, but none of the values have really been set yet.

And yeah, additions to it can be made down the line if need be, I think.
I remember him saying that also.  Let's not forget we still have several meta type stuff (edicts?) that haven't been added in.  That's pretty much what I'm looking forward to (fully fleshed out objectives) for reply value. Once we actually have the stuff that adds to the depth of the game, we could make that judgement.
On score specifically, wasn't that going to be how we leveled up our profiles?
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Offline tigersfan

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 07:37:07 am »
I believe Tigersfan mentioned somewhere that the current score values and such were all just placeholders;  AKA the actual coding and mechanics of it are in place, but none of the values have really been set yet.

And yeah, additions to it can be made down the line if need be, I think.

Yes, the coding/mechanics were in place, but, it was actually becoming increasingly difficult to really come up with a scoring system that made sense to me. Things like "Well, the edicts obviously need to effect the score, but, by how much? What about the challenges? Should the effect the score?" were actually really hard questions to answer in any way that made sense. It could probably have been done, but not without a LOT of back and forth and dial adjusting that likely would have taken months to get close to right. And, while right now, my money would be on them not returning, I try to not say never around here.

I remember him saying that also.  Let's not forget we still have several meta type stuff (edicts?) that haven't been added in.  That's pretty much what I'm looking forward to (fully fleshed out objectives) for reply value. Once we actually have the stuff that adds to the depth of the game, we could make that judgement.
On score specifically, wasn't that going to be how we leveled up our profiles?

Nope, this was always going to be via the challenges. Some of the challenges were based on score, and those need to be eliminated, obviously, but it was always going to be via challenges. Similar to 10,000,000 if you've ever played that.

Offline Mick

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 07:51:31 am »
I'd certainly like if score is replaced by more meaningful motivations to "play well". The edict system seems very AI-War, which I like a lot - and that's a game that has strong replay value without having a score.

My concern right now is how the game will play out. Score created a motivator (a weakish one I believe) to do things that seemed kinda dumb - like plop down overpowered myth tokens. Now, those tokens seems to serve more of the purpose of simply correcting imbalances, and are something you'd want to stay far far away from if things are mostly in equilibrium. Is this the goal?

Should I be building up a stockpile of hard to get resources to build these units, or should I ignore them completely and just "play well" so I never reach a situation where I need them. It sounds unfun to not try to build up for the powerful stuff.

Please keep in mind. I know things need to be implemented before I can judge the game as fun or not. All I can do not in the current state of the alpha is speculate.

What if every game had a big checklist of various things you can do for VPs (victory points). Like a point system, but with a variety of discrete objectives - where it's near impossible to complete all of them in a given game. For one example, you get 1 VP for every town center pair you have, up to a maximum of 10 (or whatever). You know, make points based off a set of very clear goals that the player can work toward, instead of them just finding goofy ways to game the system. This game has Euro-style board game roots, and VPs are a major part of that.

Offline Misery

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Re: Skyward Collapse Alpha 0.803/0.804
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2013, 08:08:51 am »
I believe Tigersfan mentioned somewhere that the current score values and such were all just placeholders;  AKA the actual coding and mechanics of it are in place, but none of the values have really been set yet.

And yeah, additions to it can be made down the line if need be, I think.

Yes, the coding/mechanics were in place, but, it was actually becoming increasingly difficult to really come up with a scoring system that made sense to me. Things like "Well, the edicts obviously need to effect the score, but, by how much? What about the challenges? Should the effect the score?" were actually really hard questions to answer in any way that made sense. It could probably have been done, but not without a LOT of back and forth and dial adjusting that likely would have taken months to get close to right. And, while right now, my money would be on them not returning, I try to not say never around here.

I remember him saying that also.  Let's not forget we still have several meta type stuff (edicts?) that haven't been added in.  That's pretty much what I'm looking forward to (fully fleshed out objectives) for reply value. Once we actually have the stuff that adds to the depth of the game, we could make that judgement.
On score specifically, wasn't that going to be how we leveled up our profiles?

Nope, this was always going to be via the challenges. Some of the challenges were based on score, and those need to be eliminated, obviously, but it was always going to be via challenges. Similar to 10,000,000 if you've ever played that.


Wouldnt it make more sense to simply set basic values for different units/structures, and leave it at that?  I cant see why Edicts and such would necessarily need to come into play as far as the scoring goes; they're more of a framework than anything else, from what I've seen of them.  Not to mention, keeping such a scoring system nice and simple would probably work best here;  that's about how I'd do it, anyway.    Heck, it doesnt even necessarily need to be a full-on scoring system.  It could end up being more like a tally system; keeping a total count of how many units/buildings/things were destroyed in total, with the encouragement to cause more and more of that.  Wouldnt be AS interesting, but it'd at least be something.


Hmm, that's a shame though.   I hate to say, but the game does kinda lose my interest at this point, I think.  Even just in my initial playthrough, I realized.... there's alot of cool options here, but I wasnt USING the majority of them, as I got further and further into that playthrough.  When things were already balanced.... which they were, it's not at all difficult to simply maintain balance in this.... there's no reason to use anything that isnt basic structures.  The game would have to forcibly warp the balance pretty darn hard on it's own to make many of those objects useful in a practical sense, but doing that sorta goes against the concept of the player being the one to cause the chaos.   

I know theoretically the player could use the big crazy things or whatever just to use them, in a sandboxy way, but that wont ever occur to me without reason.   Makes me think of disasters in the Simcity series.   Alot of players think those are fun..... but I never touched them, because they have no purpose or use.


For now, I'll just watch development of this one from the sidelines, I think, and see what happens with it as things continue.

 

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