Arcen Games
General Category => Skyward Collapse => Topic started by: x4000 on July 03, 2013, 05:09:24 pm
-
Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2013/07/skyward-collapse-1402-beta-man-defenses.html
If you've not yet read about the general changes in the 1.4 beta line, now is a good time to do so. It's expected that we'll stay in beta for the 1.4 line until the week of July 29th, when we'll do an official release called 1.5. A lot is different here, so we want to make sure and give this time to mature before we put this out to everyone.
This one is the second release of the day, and probably the last until Friday unless something drastic happens (tomorrow is a holiday here in the US).
This release has the remainder of the gameplay features that I'd wanted to get into the 1.4 line, but hadn't had time for before. Both of these features are heavily defensive-oriented.
The first lets you put garrisons in your military production buildings and your town centers, which makes the placement of these suddenly relevant. And it makes yet one more thing competing for your currency resource.
The second makes flowers actually useful now, by giving them the ability to add auto-heal on buildings in their towns. This again is quite useful if you're not wanting your structures destroyed (often you are). This isn't going to save you from the sorts of heavy-hitters who come over and stomp a building in one or two hits, but it will build your towns back up after they take some glancing blows, making it harder to wear down a well-defended town through accidental attrition from non-siege units.
Of course, both of these compete with existing things for your resources. The upgrades compete for your currency, and the flower gardens compete for your AP and the space in your town (and, to a lesser degree, pottery; but that's easier to come by, relatively speaking).
There are a couple of other fixes and tweaks in here, too.
More to come soon. Enjoy!
This is a standard update that you can download through the in-game updater itself, if you already have any version of the game. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.
-
I approve! This definitely changes things up. Now defenses in towns makes sense. Thanks!
-
My pleasure. :)
-
Bugs, not necessarily regressions:
I'm on 1402 and just passed the first score gate on hard score without meeting the requirement (2680/3450 on turn 30 and my demigods appeared) Oops, looks like it's on the turn after that, which is counter intuitive (if my gods appear, you are very unambiguously communicating that I have successfully moved to the next phase). I pressed "done" for both factions, and got the failed message, and then the turn played out. Presumably, since it's already done calculating everything before it plays out, it had decided that I would not meet the score gate after playback, and I had failed. It should play everything out, give me my final score and then say I failed.
On the miner revolt which prevents usage of mined things (iron), I can still create melee weapons with smithy
If you have the resources to build a particular barracks unit, and you mouse over the barracks, it doesn't alert you to any missing buildings for that unit, even if you, say, don't actually have any pig farms currently (but have a stock of pigs and therefore bacon). This is in contrast to if you have 10 wood but no woodcutters and you mouse over stone quarry on the build list, it will let you build it of course but it will also say you have no wood cutters. I think the latter is the better behavior and it should be consistent everywhere.
Subjective crap:
Units with 0.1 defense are kind of ridiculous. I understand I am in control of what gets built and they could be used by a skilled player in a pinch to defend against an imbalance of units, but really...
I still don't like "oldest units attack first" in conjunction with barracks units in terms of being responsive. The best thing I can possibly do is build a barracks and already have the resources ready. In this case, the enemy I am trying to counter is going to move twice before my new barracks unit moves once (my guy spawns, enemy acts, my guy doesn't move this turn; next turn, enemy acts, then my guy finally acts). This is in contrast to glorious mythological unit overlords that get to act the turn you place them (and they go where you want!).
Why do mythologicals only give 15 points base (in first tier, rank 1) when they die? That's how much a crappy human gives.
-
On the subjective stuff:
In what way do you find the .1 defense ridiculous? Can you clarify? That means that damage from the source in question is reduced by 90%, and this that kind of unit is not effective at all on them. These are multipliers, so the smaller the number the more effective their defenses. I had worried this would be confusing, but I couldn't think of a better way to represent it.
Why don't you like the oldest units attacking first? The new ones being-flat footed makes some sense to me. I understand what you mean on the defensive difficulties, but if you flip hat around then offense gets harder. This is a game of aggression, so it makes some good sense to me to do it this way. But I'm open to discussing it.
Mythologicals give the same number of points as humans, yes. A mythological is its own reward. ;) more specifically, they don't need a points multiplier to encourage their use, because they are already so useful and powerful.
-
Ok, a couple of things here:
First off, wood seems very hard to get and maintain. I'm 16 turns into the game, having restarted with this recent patch, and BOTH sides are constantly either out of wood, or about to be. I only have two towns on each side and not that many military buildings.... mostly due to lack of wood.... And the Norse side has a whole 9 woodcutters, split evenly, and even then, they're STILL always out. Wheras rock is piling up on both sides.
Secondly, Xiphos: It just occurred to me that this unit is basically invincible against other human units... or so close to it as to not be much of a difference. The only way to hurt them from the Norse side seems to be myth units... I dunno if this was your intent with them or not, so figured I'd bring it up.
And finally, I've got human units ignoring available tokens again, even when there's nothing to attack in the immediate area. Dropped a Nemean Lion right next to Norse siege buildings, but the siege units just drive right over it and wont grab it.
-
Quick post. Just won my first game with the latest version on N/N/E scoring 900,000ish. Pretty fun. The variety of enemies is great now. It was tough going and I had to reload a couple of times, so it seems like the difficulty has increased a bit. Managed to change the tide of battle using some of my souls to convert a powerful Drykal (think that's what it's called) to the other side. Great skill that.
I don't really see the point of the Mythos having a soul cost yet. Just seems like an over-complication to me. Currently all the Souls skills require only souls, but Mythos require souls and other resources. This doesn't seem very clean to me unless you plan on having other Souls skills also require auxiliary resources. I don't like the mixing of resources like this conceptually. Then there is of course the fact that you can't do a Mytho only game now. Seems to be taking away options, and over-complicating systems, for no perceivable benefit -- at least I haven't noticed any yet. Not for me anyway, although it is early days.
Overall it seems like the changes work so far, although I didn't even notice the currency resource. Still haven't explored that yet. That's all for now a bit pressed for time. Oh, one thing, should resources be rounded down on the side bar? I noticed on the sidebar that I had 3 moonstone, just enough to put a Raven down, so I made all my prep moves and then when I went to put down a Raven I didn't actually have 3, but 2.78 or something, which was a bit annoying. Maybe rounding down would be better?
All-in-all good work I think, I'm really just loving all the different bandit/monster types now. I haven't really gotten deep into the mechanic changes. Good work, anyway.
-
On the subjective stuff:
In what way do you find the .1 defense ridiculous? Can you clarify? That means that damage from the source in question is reduced by 90%, and this that kind of unit is not effective at all on them. These are multipliers, so the smaller the number the more effective their defenses. I had worried this would be confusing, but I couldn't think of a better way to represent it.
Sorry it was late. I just find it comical that a dude with 0.1 infantry defense is going to hang out and take 30 from all infantry. I won't make that mistake again (ended up with both teams having units with infantry defense bonuses and a 20 v 20 battle where no unit ever died). I guess with all the craziness going on it's not too outlandish thematically.
Why don't you like the oldest units attacking first? The new ones being-flat footed makes some sense to me. I understand what you mean on the defensive difficulties, but if you flip hat around then offense gets harder. This is a game of aggression, so it makes some good sense to me to do it this way. But I'm open to discussing it.
It's mostly because of what I said - an enemy gets at least 2 turns of action before your guy, because the enemy acts this turn while your guy spawns and has summoning sickness, then next turn the enemy acts before your guy due to age. Maybe make units able to act the turn they are spawned from the barracks?
-
I think the point of adding a souls cost to mythos makes a mytho only game impossible, because that's exactly what it was intended to do. In my opinion, that's not an option, but a near-exploit, so I love this change.
-
Uh... yeah... about that...
I'm on turn 65 of insane/insane/hard with mytho-only game holding pretty strong.
Strategy: same as before (build tons of mytho mats only like incense at the start), just build my woodcutters near the front of my base and wait for a bandit to kill one of my woodcutters then spawn a minotaur on his face.
I started with 2 bases and 1 tower per base. Making the 1 tower per base was a mistake I think because it delayed them from killing one of my buildings (giving me free points and a soul), letting bandits accumulate for slightly longer than optimal.
-
I think the point of adding a souls cost to mythos makes a mytho only game impossible, because that's exactly what it was intended to do. In my opinion, that's not an option, but a near-exploit, so I love this change.
If that is the intention, then it is a good change although mixing resource requirements still seems odd to me. Personally, I don't see Mytho only games as an exploit, just a different style of game. I've played a couple of Mytho only games in the past and it was fun, but I don't recall it being necessarily vastly easier than any of my other games. It was just a different experience. 95% of my games are played more traditionally and the game naturally promotes this type of play. I just like the option to occasionally mix things up.
-
So just playin' I've got a lot more feedback. Do you prefer me to spam out your bug tracker tool or are posts here OK?
-
So just playin' I've got a lot more feedback. Do you prefer me to spam out your bug tracker tool or are posts here OK?
I think mantis is the preferred course of action here ;)...
-
If it's a gameplay idea, you can discuss it here first if you want. Otherwise, just go straight to the bug tracker. Bugs don't really need discussion, unless they'd be better off remaining features.
-
Uh... yeah... about that...
I'm on turn 65 of insane/insane/hard with mytho-only game holding pretty strong.
Completely missed this post yesterday. If this is the case then mixing resource costs is definitely an over-complication at the current soul level. If you really want to stamp out Mytho use then the cost is going to need to go up to 3-5 souls (maybe more). I would hate this as I really don't particularly care if a player sets up their game from the start to use Mythos and I wouldn't like the restrictions myself.
Question for Vehementi. Was that Mytho-only game you played fun or did it feel like an exploit? Or both?
-
Whew, lots of things. Some stuff I've just already fixed in the release notes. For the other things:
1. Regarding human units ignoring available tokens, I'd need a savegame to look into that. No idea why that would be.
2. Regarding soul cost of mytho units: honestly "messiness" has never really been a concern for me. I think that there will be more stuff that mixes in soul costs, and certainly resource costs. All-soul costs was never something that was completely intended, that's just how it started because I can't retroactively add a cost like that without care or I risk pissing people off. I think that the current style of soul costs helps make the mytho game slightly more challenging to do, but I knew it would not stamp it out since buildings also give souls.
-
2. Regarding soul cost of mytho units: honestly "messiness" has never really been a concern for me. I think that there will be more stuff that mixes in soul costs, and certainly resource costs. All-soul costs was never something that was completely intended, that's just how it started because I can't retroactively add a cost like that without care or I risk pissing people off. I think that the current style of soul costs helps make the mytho game slightly more challenging to do, but I knew it would not stamp it out since buildings also give souls.
This is totally okay - at least in my book... I see the soul cost of mythos as a welcome, almost purely thematic, addition really.
-
Great!
-
2. Regarding soul cost of mytho units: honestly "messiness" has never really been a concern for me. I think that there will be more stuff that mixes in soul costs, and certainly resource costs. All-soul costs was never something that was completely intended, that's just how it started because I can't retroactively add a cost like that without care or I risk pissing people off. I think that the current style of soul costs helps make the mytho game slightly more challenging to do, but I knew it would not stamp it out since buildings also give souls.
I'll leave this issue then, although I do disagree with the current implementation. Some Mythos now have four resource requirements which I think is a little too much. I like to keep things as simple as possible, and I don't think there's much benefit to the added soul cost, especially with only a near nominal 1 soul price. Still an unnecessary overcomplication in my book. That's probably my last thought on the subject, though.
-
2. Regarding soul cost of mytho units: honestly "messiness" has never really been a concern for me. I think that there will be more stuff that mixes in soul costs, and certainly resource costs. All-soul costs was never something that was completely intended, that's just how it started because I can't retroactively add a cost like that without care or I risk pissing people off. I think that the current style of soul costs helps make the mytho game slightly more challenging to do, but I knew it would not stamp it out since buildings also give souls.
I'll leave this issue then, although I do disagree with the current implementation. Some Mythos now have four resource requirements which I think is a little too much. I like to keep things as simple as possible, and I don't think there's much benefit to the added soul cost, especially with only a near nominal 1 soul price. Still an unnecessary overcomplication in my book. That's probably my last thought on the subject, though.
It may be that we wind up doing the simplifying. I think it's worth exploring in the meantime, though, because there are some more things in the works that may affect the soul availability and thus make the cost on mythos a lot more relevant. That said I also agree that four resource costs are in general too much, and so that's only on some mythos and in relatively rare cases. Everything else is three max.
-
It may be that we wind up doing the simplifying. I think it's worth exploring in the meantime, though, because there are some more things in the works that may affect the soul availability and thus make the cost on mythos a lot more relevant. That said I also agree that four resource costs are in general too much, and so that's only on some mythos and in relatively rare cases. Everything else is three max.
Alright, we'll leave it for the time being as I don't know what's coming up in future changes. My spidey sense is telling me that there are fundamental cracks in the Mytho material resource mechanic/costs that is being papered over with the addition of the souls cost. As you say, though, let's see how it develops. Actually, I'm a little worried that this Souls thing might become a general band-aid for various fundamental problems that could otherwise be fixed in a simpler manner.
I do like the general Souls give you rare uber powers mechanic, though.
-
I don't think that the mythos are generally too uber, honestly; even the few people who play with them excessively aren't finding the game broken or something. It's not like the mountains defense strategy. This was just a minor tweak in terms of balancing a bit better; in a way that affects edge cases moderately, and most cases minorly. I do wish to integrate the souls into the game more and more, and in a lot of senses yes they'd be for tuning balance in various ways. But I don't think of them as a band-aid in particular (and also, if there are simpler approaches to whatever tuning, I'm always all ears).
-
I don't think that the mythos are generally too uber, honestly; even the few people who play with them excessively aren't finding the game broken or something. It's not like the mountains defense strategy.
Exactly. That's one of the reasons I don't like the Soul cost thing, I just keep thinking "is this really necessary?" The mountains solution you came up with was tremendous, actually making that type of mountain defense strategy a welcomed part of the game rather than just stamping it out completely.
I do wish to integrate the souls into the game more and more, and in a lot of senses yes they'd be for tuning balance in various ways.
I actually quite like the current separation of the resources and souls costs. It makes things simple. You've got a list of uber skills that cost only souls, so have at it, but choose wisely. That alone works for me. I'll wait and see what you come up with, though.
But I don't think of them as a band-aid in particular (and also, if there are simpler approaches to whatever tuning, I'm always all ears).
I was hoping the removal of the Mytho free upgrades would have been enough. Not quite, I guess.
-
New one! http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13599.0.html