Author Topic: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!  (Read 8308 times)

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,511
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2013, 11:24:43 am »
Quote
And it's still a limitation on your "god-ness", even with your suggestion. Which, again, makes no sense

Hey, at least it's a lesser limitation, more in the vein of the Town Center rules of placement rather than a "No Mountains For You!!! Next!" But, of course, still not ideal.

Any love for the increasing the costs of Mountains or Lakes to 3AP idea? I would certainly think twice about placing mountains or lakes at those prices. Or is the consensus that this wouldn't prove strong enough.

Quote
Which, again, makes no sense

Just to clarify are you saying that the adjacency rule makes no sense or it makes no sense to have limits on your "god-ness"?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 11:28:03 am by Pepisolo »

Offline nas1m

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,268
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2013, 11:30:47 am »
Any love for the increasing the costs of Mountains or Lakes to 3AP idea? I would certainly think twice about placing mountains or lakes at those prices. Or is the consensus that this wouldn't prove strong enough.

Yes ;).

Maybe the best approach really would be to stick a price tag on placing them. At 3 to 9 actions per mountain/lake walling off towns would be a costly road to take indeed. I kinda miss being able to place them as well - sparingly.

Just a random idea: Would limiting the number of mountains/lakes that can be placed in a game to a specific amount (say 10 mountains, 10 lakes) work to prevent cheese while still allowing the occasional "divine intervention" on behalf of weaker side?
Sounds like a best-of-both-worlds approach to me...
Craving some more color and variety in your next Bionic run? Grab a boost and a couple of custom floors!

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,511
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2013, 11:37:34 am »
Oops, should have said any love for Nas1m's idea...

Offline nas1m

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,268
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2013, 11:45:23 am »
Oops, should have said any love for Nas1m's idea...

No worries.
Any thoughts on the "fixed contingent" idea? The longer I think about it the more I like it...
Craving some more color and variety in your next Bionic run? Grab a boost and a couple of custom floors!

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,511
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2013, 12:11:00 pm »
Quote
Any thoughts on the "fixed contingent" idea? The longer I think about it the more I like it...

Seems pretty good to me, although some of the more experienced players' feedback would be vastly more useful, Mick, Misery, Zharmad, Cinth etc. Definitely seems worth discussing, though.

I suppose the biggest flaw is in implementing a kind of a new system specifically for a couple of tile types would decrease the uniformity of the game mechanics and overcomplicate things a little.

Offline nas1m

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,268
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 12:12:49 pm »
Quote
Any thoughts on the "fixed contingent" idea? The longer I think about it the more I like it...

Seems pretty good to me, although some of the more experienced players' feedback would be vastly more useful, Mick, Misery, Zharmad, Cinth etc. Definitely seems worth discussing, though.

I suppose the biggest flaw is in implementing a kind of a new system specifically for a couple of tile types would decrease the uniformity of the game mechanics and overcomplicate things a little.

I agree, it might turn out to be a handy system for future improvements/extensions, though ;)...
Craving some more color and variety in your next Bionic run? Grab a boost and a couple of custom floors!

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2013, 12:20:22 pm »
My comment were more along the lines that rather then the game trying to compensate.for the edge strategies, they simply are being eliminated.
 First it was mountains. Pursuing a full on chokepoint strategy hinders points a lot. The whole point of score gating was to discourage, but not prevent, this.  There have been plenty of ideas purposed to prevent full on isolation of towns. Instead, they have just been eliminated. This is not good enough, but in a game where you are supposed to be creator it just feels...wrong.


Actually, a chokepoint strategy.... or outright barring off an area.... doesnt have to hinder points whatsoever, which was part of the problem with these tactics.  You need only protect one town with the unbreakable-type tactic in order to freely win..... which leaves all of your OTHER towns plenty of room to go crazy and spam points for you.  It might actually make it EASIER to get points that way.

Not to mention.... the Creator guy in the game clearly isnt COMPLETELY powerful;  he still ends up relying on the people quite a bit for a lot of things.   There's lots of stuff the player cannot do directly or control directly, so I dont think it goes against the feel of the game too much.   



As for the idea of increasing mountain/lake cost, I dont think it'd work.   Why?  You still only need so many mountains to produce the unbreakable ring or whatever..... actually, considering the current rules and loss conditions, I'm pretty sure you can, technically, do this type of strategy with only FOUR mountains on either side, for a total of 8 to wall up on both sides.  This only just now occurred to me, but.... yeah, it'd work.   Even if that wasnt the case, and you had to ring an entire town, it still wouldnt be THAT hard, really.   You might take some damage elsewhere as a result of the used AP, but.... not necessarily, and chances are you'd finish the ring long before things got bad, at which point it'd stop mattering.   Particularly during calmer points.

As for the fixed numbers idea, it'd have to be a bloody small number to really stop the problem.

Also, from a mechanical standpoint, I dont think it's actually necessary at all for the mountains and such to be there, any more than it is for the dead forests to be in there.  And the player really does already have alot of options with the tiles that ARE there.  Adding them back in just to have them seems to create enough problems to just make it not worth the hassle.  Particularly if other things then get changed just because of that (which could then lead to MORE problems).



And one other brief related note:  Skadi's "mountains everywhere" token ability, that one can cause this whole problem pretty much instantly.   I had cause to use it in my game earlier, and.... yeeeeaahhh.   If you've already hit the right score when you use that (which I had), all threat is pretty much stopped once that ability fires off because everything is downright covered in mountains.  Figured I'd mention it before I forget.


Enough input from me for now though, I'm off to bed.   I'll be interested to see what comes of all of this later.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2013, 12:25:51 pm »
Thing is, you can circumvent not being able to place mountains. You can still just smite stuff to make holes. Those are just as efficient.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline nas1m

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,268
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 12:26:30 pm »
I must admit that I do not understand how you would create an invincible town with only four mountains (or even a complete ring of them - there are things like Bloodlust and Mountain Crosser after all, especially on Hard and above) . You could hinder regular units using mountains and lakes, sure - but I do not see how a limited amount of mountains/lakes would be game breaking...
What am I missing ????

Also, from a mechanical standpoint, I dont think it's actually necessary at all for the mountains and such to be there, any more than it is for the dead forests to be in there.  And the player really does already have alot of options with the tiles that ARE there.  Adding them back in just to have them seems to create enough problems to just make it not worth the hassle.  Particularly if other things then get changed just because of that (which could then lead to MORE problems).

I think I just love the notion of being able to raise mountains and dig lakes - very godly ;).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 12:29:53 pm by nas1m »
Craving some more color and variety in your next Bionic run? Grab a boost and a couple of custom floors!

Offline Mick

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2013, 12:28:06 pm »
If you go with with the fixed contingent idea, I'll just submit the "UNDO does not return spent mountain/lake tile" bug ahead of time.  ;D

Offline nas1m

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,268
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2013, 12:30:50 pm »
If you go with with the fixed contingent idea, I'll just submit the "UNDO does not return spent mountain/lake tile" bug ahead of time.  ;D

And you would quite surely be right about it ;D.
Craving some more color and variety in your next Bionic run? Grab a boost and a couple of custom floors!

Offline FallingStar

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2013, 12:45:51 pm »
Have to toss in a quick wonder about the no mythologicals vs bandits keeps addition.  I guess I'll need to try it before I can really say anything, but I wonder if a woe like ultima is basically now a game over card in any higher difficulty if it hits you in latter ages.  Admittedly, most mythologicals weren't very good vs keeps before, but at least you had a chance.

Its also a bit counter intuitive, to have units that can kill other faction buildings and town centers but can't kill neutral buildings.  I'm sure you'll get some new players saying "what . . my spear wielding human can attack a bandit keep but my storm giant can't?!?!?!  I can attack it with a slingshot but not with a fireball?  What?"

Anyways, will be sure to try it out before I gripe too much.  But just a kneejerk reaction that this might cause a few more issues than it solves.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2013, 01:18:57 pm »
Have to toss in a quick wonder about the no mythologicals vs bandits keeps addition.  I guess I'll need to try it before I can really say anything, but I wonder if a woe like ultima is basically now a game over card in any higher difficulty if it hits you in latter ages.  Admittedly, most mythologicals weren't very good vs keeps before, but at least you had a chance.

Its also a bit counter intuitive, to have units that can kill other faction buildings and town centers but can't kill neutral buildings.  I'm sure you'll get some new players saying "what . . my spear wielding human can attack a bandit keep but my storm giant can't?!?!?!  I can attack it with a slingshot but not with a fireball?  What?"

Anyways, will be sure to try it out before I gripe too much.  But just a kneejerk reaction that this might cause a few more issues than it solves.
Yeah, I'm with you on this. Having myths not hit bandits is...well, it doesn't ring well from any perspective. But as you say, I'm not going to grab my pitchfork until I've actually played with it.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,511
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2013, 01:22:15 pm »
Quote
Its also a bit counter intuitive, to have units that can kill other faction buildings and town centers but can't kill neutral buildings.  I'm sure you'll get some new players saying "what . . my spear wielding human can attack a bandit keep but my storm giant can't?!?!?!  I can attack it with a slingshot but not with a fireball?  What?"

Yeah, I don't really like this change for this reason. It's going to feel really strange when a player plops down a minotaur to clean up some bandit keeps and they do nothing. Definitely seems a bit odd and is going to elicit a "Well, that's bizarre" response.

Shouldn't mythologicals have just received a nerf against bandit keeps rather than keeps receiving full immunity. Again, haven't actually played it, yet, though.

Offline Professor Paul1290

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Re: Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2013, 01:31:12 pm »
Is there a way to detect if the path to the other town is less than 2 tiles wide?
If there was a way to do that then maybe the units should eventually just pick a lake or mountain then bridge over or build a path through it if the path is too constricted.

Alternatively, and probably more simply, you could make any tile that isn't a flat tile cost a certain amount of score. Maybe placing a mountain can be -300 points while a lake can be -200 points for example.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 01:35:43 pm by Professor Paul1290 »