Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!

[x4000]

Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2013/05/skyward-collapse-1004-rise-of-valkyrie.html

This one is quite small, as it's still a holiday weekend for us here in the US.  However, we'll be back to our regular schedule tomorrow.

The biggest changes in this version concern mythological units:
1. The Norse mythologicals in general have gotten a huge buff against other mythologicals.
2. The Greek mythologicals lost all bonuses against buildings.
3. The bandit keeps are now immune to mythologicals (!!!), but the health of said keeps have also been reduced by half.

Also fixed two multiplayer issues, and a bug with the undo function in certain circumstances.

Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the  in-game updater itself, if you already have any version of the game.  When you  launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.

[nas1m]

Now that was quick !

[chemical_art]

It's weird, SC may be the first where I choose not to update past 1.0.

It gives some cool UI improvements, but it has almost nerfed all my pre 1.0 strategies to the ground, and for some reason I feel no itching desire to basically relearn the game strategy.

[Castruccio]

Great update!   Is the direct action "command" working yet? 

[Misery]

Hmm, I gotta say, I'm kinda baffled at the immunity thing.

The one problem with bandit keeps is that they can appear *anywhere*.   But there is no way to direct/encourage units to different areas, which is where the myth guys come in, allowing you to hit spots that the normal units' pathing simply isnt taking them near.

Generally I prefer to use siege units against keeps as it is, since anything that isnt a minotaur just takes too bloody long attacking the things, but.... yeah, that actually becomes impossible about 50% of the time without building an entire new city JUST to fire a siege unit or two at a particular bandit keep.   I've had this one happen really dang often already, where there simply isnt any other way to attack the things other than with myth units.   Unless there's some loopy way of shoving human units in specific directions that I'm missing here.  I dont have time to mess with the game at the moment, but this one sounds like it could lead to irritating situations with bandits that you cant even attack without building a whole city to do it (which seems kinda dumb to me) or using god tokens.

[Mick]

I think commandment needs to work on keeps as well. (Well, it also needs to work in general...)

[Misery]

I think commandment needs to work on keeps as well. (Well, it also needs to work in general...)

Aye, this might do, perhaps.   I feel like it'll need some testing though; the original reason commandment got changed was because it was cheese-tastic, after all.   That likely wont be the case if it cant target red/blue things (at least, I cant really think of how it COULD be), and you cant really leave bandit keeps alone long without them covering the area in doom, but just in case, probably needs alot of testing if that idea is put in.   I wonder if, in addition to this, Commandment should get a cost, maybe?  Another multi-action sort of thing?  Not sure.

Having looked at the other thread though, I think the cheese tactic that caused this change really HEAVILY depended on the Minotaur's monstrous power, particularly against buildings.  They'd been nerfed, but they werent nerfed nearly hard enough.  They were still taking out 4 buildings with a single blow, AND they tend to be easier to place than a chimera even (due to the cost), so knocking over bandit keeps, or basically anything, with them was very easy.


EDIT:  I will say though that the change to the bonuses on the myth units sounds like a very good idea.  It was a bit TOO easy to smash buildings with the greek ones and the bonus on the Ice Giant in particular didn't help much.  That and making the Norse myth units able to hit really hard against the Greek ones fits the balance ideas for both armies.

[nas1m]

I think commandment needs to work on keeps as well. (Well, it also needs to work in general...)

I would definitely support this. Something that dangerous should be explicitly targetable...

[Mánagarmr]

It's weird, SC may be the first where I choose not to update past 1.0.

It gives some cool UI improvements, but it has almost nerfed all my pre 1.0 strategies to the ground, and for some reason I feel no itching desire to basically relearn the game strategy.

Why would you not want exploits fixed? The mountain issue for instance makes the game ridiculously easy. Bandits? No problem! Surround them with mountains!
 
Red beating blue? No problem, make a chokepoint with mountains!

[Pepisolo]

Here's a question... would making it so that you couldn't place Mountains or Lakes adjacent to Mountains or Lakes prevent cheesy tactics?

[Misery]

It's weird, SC may be the first where I choose not to update past 1.0.

It gives some cool UI improvements, but it has almost nerfed all my pre 1.0 strategies to the ground, and for some reason I feel no itching desire to basically relearn the game strategy.

Why would you not want exploits fixed? The mountain issue for instance makes the game ridiculously easy. Bandits? No problem! Surround them with mountains!
 
Red beating blue? No problem, make a chokepoint with mountains!

Yeah.   To be honest, stuff like that was SO cheesy, that if I were to for whatever reason use such a tactic and then make it to the end, I would still consider it not actually a win.   Like beating Doom with God Mode on for half the game.   It was THAT bad.  You could stop almost any unit or threat with mountains.    Heck, I cant even consider that one a strategy at this point. 

I'd been kinda against the mountain/lake removal even from higher difficulties at first, but..... yeah, the game really is better with those out of the placement menu.


And as for the changes to unit stats, that's all just a balancing thing, to get the units to where they were intended to be in the first place, yes?   That's been the impression I've had with those.  And the game has just been better since.

Here's a question... would making it so that you couldn't place Mountains or Lakes adjacent to Mountains or Lakes prevent cheesy tactics?

Probably not.   I can think of a few ways to do it even with that rule in place.   It'd be hard to explain in text though and I dont feel like typing out a long post to explain it (just about meal time for me here).

I'm thinking that the removal of them from the placement menu was a good idea overall.


And you can still make chokepoints in different ways, such as smiting tiles, or creating long thin bridges to spots you're going to place new cities, so it's not like you cant do chokepoints at all anymore.  It just means they arent ultra reliable as the game loves to stick more tiles around them when you dont want it to, and it doesnt stop ranged units from firing onto them from the sides (which mountains did).

[Pepisolo]

I'm thinking that the removal of them from the placement menu was a good idea overall.

As an anti-cheese move it definitely was a good idea. I just think that there might be a better way to prevent this cheese than to excise mountain and lake placement from all but sandbox mode. Not being able to put down mountains or lakes just doesn't feel very Creator-y. Disallowing mountains or lakes from being placed adjacent to each other seems like it might at the very least be an idea worthy of discussion, although from what you say it seems like even with this rule in effect the cheese factor might still be there.

[nas1m]

I'm thinking that the removal of them from the placement menu was a good idea overall.

As an anti-cheese move it definitely was a good idea. I just think that there might be a better way to prevent this cheese than to excise mountain and lake placement from all but sandbox mode. Not being able to put down mountains or lakes just doesn't feel very Creator-y. Disallowing mountains or lakes from being placed adjacent to each other seems like it might at the very least be an idea worthy of discussion, although from what you say it seems like even with this rule in effect the cheese factor might still be there.

Maybe the best approach really would be to stick a price tag on placing them. At 3 to 9 actions per mountain/lake walling off towns would be a costly road to take indeed. I kinda miss being able to place them as well - sparingly.

Just a random idea: Would limiting the number of mountains/lakes that can be placed in a game to a specific amount (say 10 mountains, 10 lakes) work to prevent cheese while still allowing the occasional "divine intervention" on behalf of weaker side?
Sounds like a best-of-both-worlds approach to me...

[chemical_art]

My comment were more along the lines that rather then the game trying to compensate.for the edge strategies, they simply are being eliminated.
 First it was mountains. Pursuing a full on chokepoint strategy hinders points a lot. The whole point of score gating was to discourage, but not prevent, this.  There have been plenty of ideas purposed to prevent full on isolation of towns. Instead, they have just been eliminated. This is not good enough, but in a game where you are supposed to be creator it just feels...wrong.

Now that bandit keeps are immune to anything but sieges, that just sounds annoying. They.have been buffed plenty enough with their higher firepower. Myths are meant to be your rapid response force. They arent after these changes good against buildings anyway...and what if they hide.by a bamdit keep killing thee spawns, but cant attack the keep itself?

[Mánagarmr]

I'm thinking that the removal of them from the placement menu was a good idea overall.

As an anti-cheese move it definitely was a good idea. I just think that there might be a better way to prevent this cheese than to excise mountain and lake placement from all but sandbox mode. Not being able to put down mountains or lakes just doesn't feel very Creator-y. Disallowing mountains or lakes from being placed adjacent to each other seems like it might at the very least be an idea worthy of discussion, although from what you say it seems like even with this rule in effect the cheese factor might still be there.

And it's still a limitation on your "god-ness", even with your suggestion. Which, again, makes no sense