Skyward Collapse 1.004 "Rise of the Valkyrie" Released!

[chemical_art]

Just to add and clarify.

Quick changes are fine.
Dramatic changes are fine.

The two go together fine in a alpha / beta leading up to a release or expansion.

After release? The two do not go together.


Doubly, if not triply so, in a game where imbalance is intentional.

[Misery]

And on another note.... I just realized how much the devs are going to be coming back to, after their holiday is over!


I'll apologize in advance for that, and say.... "good luck" 

[zespri]

3. The bandit keeps are now immune to mythologicals (!!!), but the health of said keeps have also been reduced by half.

I'm guessing I have to put the game aside for the time being and play Reus instead, while things stabilize here a bit with Skyward Collapse. A bit unexpected change just a few days after the release. My gut feeling is that with this level of changes, there are bound to be other changes to "compensate" for this one and this might take a few release cycles. I will be following the development here on the forums though =).

[Misery]

3. The bandit keeps are now immune to mythologicals (!!!), but the health of said keeps have also been reduced by half.

I'm guessing I have to put the game aside for the time being and play Reus instead, while things stabilize here a bit with Skyward Collapse. A bit unexpected change just a few days after the release. My gut feeling is that with this level of changes, there are bound to be other changes to "compensate" for this one and this might take a few release cycles. I will be following the development here on the forums though =).

I'm hoping that that particular change will simply be revoked.   There's enough problems with it to warrant that.   Not to mention, that it did indeed really seem to come from some messed up stats from the myth units;  those guys arent supposed to outright stomp such high HP buildings like that!   And it was only even happening on the Greek side, mostly with the minotaurs;  the Norse myth units, strong and versatile as they are, had much more trouble taking out a keep by themselves;  the best strategy I'd found for that was often to get an ice giant and an elf to keep the bandits in check until some siege units could somehow be made to arrive and take out the building.     Of course, it wasnt always possible to get siege units out to the proper area since they generally have their own ideas, so being able to place a larger number of myth units to fully take the thing down was important.  And that was always risky anyway;  because after that task was done, suddenly I'd have this big group of giants and things that would then need to be dealt with!     Anyway, with the various stat changes to bring the myth units back into line with where they were supposed to be, I think any exploits related to them and bandit keeps will be gone. 

Until some more can be done on the issue, I'm simply refraining from updating so I can continue my current game as I was.   Best to wait until the devs get back and have a chance to go over everything. 

[Echo35]

I only just got the game and haven't even made it past the first age without killing myself or severely breaking my engine somehow, so take my suggestion with a giant chunk of salt, but would something as simple as a unit cap on mythological units work for this purpose, without making the bandits immune to them and all that?

[Misery]

I only just got the game and haven't even made it past the first age without killing myself or severely breaking my engine somehow, so take my suggestion with a giant chunk of salt, but would something as simple as a unit cap on mythological units work for this purpose, without making the bandits immune to them and all that?

I doubt it's necessary.  Not to mention that the idea is the more units you have, the harder they are to control and can cause damage that you dont want easier.  Going totally nuts with them in most situations will only make things worse.  Myth units are bloody strong, so you have to be careful with them.

I do think some costs could be tweaked a bit (Minotaur costs too little!).  But that's about it.   The changes to their stats should go a long way towards fixing problems with them.

[Mick]

I don't think a unit cap would be a good idea. It would severely hamper the whole 'chaos' aspect of the game if there was some max limit to the amount of chaos that could exist.

Here are my thoughts on the whole situation:

I'm generally happier if games evolve (it's why I like Arcen games so much), so I'm not upset that things get changed after release.

That being said, I think sometimes a softer touch is better (move numbers around, change mechanics less), and I think the bandit keep immunity to myth is swinging a bit too hard at the problem. A softer solution may be to have bandit keeps be a new 'type' of building, which myth units get a fractional damage "bonus" to (say, 1/2).

I like the keep health reduction because I think these things are too hard to take down, but I also think it's more of a mechanical thing, not a number thing. They are hard to take down because the red and blue dudes like to bypass them too much.

The 'exploit' that was originally targeted is also showing a broader issue I think (and it's something I've been feeling more and more as I play). It's not really just about bandit keeps, it's that myth units are just so much BETTER than the human units. Now, I know you might think "Well aren't they supposed to be?!", and that would be right. However, I've found that when I play my general progression seems to be:

1) build up standard military economy
2) build up economy to support myth units
3) pretty much only use myth units the remainder of the game and don't care if all human units are dead

I'm pretty sure after a few more games my strategy would have evolved pretty much to "go to step 3 immediately" as well.

I kinda hate the human units. They do dumb things, it seems like a miracle if they kill a bandit, most of the time they FEED the bandits (if you are playing with veteran mode on, hard and above), and they block each other pretty much all the time.

I try to play the game I feel I want to play it (and should be rewarded for playing it), which is to build a ton of military units, and then I feel punished because it's such a terrible strategy. Schools help a little, but you are held back by age, and by the time universities open up, I have the resources to throw myth tokens and use god abilities anyway.

---

The mountain thing.

I know I may be the minority here, but I like that mountains are gone, but that's more because I dislike game mechanics changing too much between difficulties. I'd rather have mountains available at all levels and be balanced around it, or none at all.

I think a 3 AP mountain/lake cost at all difficulties would be a good compromise. After all, there is precedent for it because ruins cost the same as well.

Blocking things with mountains is not really any more overpowered than using a Cerberus or placing a god token in the way. Bandits cross them anyway in hard, so blocking off your town with mountains in the higher difficulties pretty much makes no sense anyway.

[x4000]

Okay, okay.  Whew.  This thread certainly blew up while I wasn't looking.  "Thanks Holiday Day Off!" 

Anyhow, points taken, and new version: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13233.0.html


More discussion is welcome, but I don't know that this unstructured thread is the best place.  I'll make a new thread to discuss the kind of core thing that I'm mulling at the moment.

[Mánagarmr]

But yeah.... too many changes too fast that cause too much re-learning is probably not a good idea, particularly with this game being complex as it is.   The response to the game as a whole has been pretty darn good, BUT, alot of players at the same time still have difficulty learning it.    So it's important to be careful with these changes.

And this is why you have beta releases I think we should put these in for Skyward.

[x4000]

But yeah.... too many changes too fast that cause too much re-learning is probably not a good idea, particularly with this game being complex as it is.   The response to the game as a whole has been pretty darn good, BUT, alot of players at the same time still have difficulty learning it.    So it's important to be careful with these changes.

And this is why you have beta releases I think we should put these in for Skyward.

I probably will at some point, but in the meantime I think it's important to get players to the important changes sooner than later.  Bugfixes and smaller balance changes really can't and shouldn't wait, for a new game like this in particular.

[Mánagarmr]

I probably will at some point, but in the meantime I think it's important to get players to the important changes sooner than later.  Bugfixes and smaller balance changes really can't and shouldn't wait, for a new game like this in particular.

Good point

[x4000]

I probably will at some point, but in the meantime I think it's important to get players to the important changes sooner than later.  Bugfixes and smaller balance changes really can't and shouldn't wait, for a new game like this in particular.

Good point

And I think that chemical_art's point about not rocking the boat too much and too fast stands in general.  The game is solid, the game is fun, and there's not a rush to squash the edge cases from the sound of it what I'm hearing in the main.  The problem is that it's very difficult to separate out the signal from the noise, and a lot of times the complaints are what ring loudest in my ears.  That's not always... accurate.

[Mánagarmr]

And I think that chemical_art's point about not rocking the boat too much and too fast stands in general.  The game is solid, the game is fun, and there's not a rush to squash the edge cases from the sound of it what I'm hearing in the main.  The problem is that it's very difficult to separate out the signal from the noise, and a lot of times the complaints are what ring loudest in my ears.  That's not always... accurate.

We're simply very good at yelling.

[chemical_art]

And I think that chemical_art's point about not rocking the boat too much and too fast stands in general.  The game is solid, the game is fun, and there's not a rush to squash the edge cases from the sound of it what I'm hearing in the main.  The problem is that it's very difficult to separate out the signal from the noise, and a lot of times the complaints are what ring loudest in my ears.  That's not always... accurate.

Appreciate it Chris.

Keep in mind that most of your changes are fine and don't need a huge amount of vetting. Tweaking units for better game balance is fine, like your example of mythological losing bonuses to buildings.

It's when tactics are *eliminated*, rather then made harder/easier that a more methodical approach is needed.

[x4000]

Cheers chemical_art, I appreciate it in return.  And I think you're spot on there.