Author Topic: Rock Paper Collapse  (Read 8889 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2013, 09:21:15 pm »
Yea, we do try to factor in the feedback we get from the more hostile crowds, it's just a lot harder because there's so many more layers of interference to deal with:

1) Some are genuine trolls, who would take more pleasure in our failing than our succeeding.

2) Most are offering feedback from varying levels of desire to be helpful (at least to other potential customers, if not to us).

3) But even those who have some inkling of desire to help don't generally want to take responsibility for what they say: 
- They often speak in a very "armchair developer" tone like they have tons more ability-to-know than we do.  In some cases that's probably justified because it's not like we're experts in everything, but by the way it all sounds you'd think we were 5th graders doing game projects with class and the commenters were Valve developers coming in to give advice.  Actually the Valve developers would probably be less condescending in that situation.
- If someone makes a criticism that's based on some wildly inaccurate premise and we point that out, they don't generally admit that (or potentially even respond) or work with us in the kind of iterative back-and-forth that's necessary for both sides to legitimate points that the other has.

So to echo Chris: it's not a channel of feedback that we just ignore, but it's just a lot harder to get the kind of value out of it that we can here.  Feedback is a two-way street, both parties have to work at it for it to be genuinely fruitful.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2013, 09:26:58 pm »
And to add to that: we've had some extremely hostile folks on various forums that we engaged with, and they turned out to be huge supporters of the game later.  But it required that two-way street.  A hugely influential member of the Valley 1 community came to us in just that manner.  He was pissed, he felt like we were doing a lot of things in a suboptimal way, and he came and told us what he thought.  And you know what?  He was right in a lot of the cases.  Not always with the solutions he had in mind (though often there too), but definitely in identifying problems.

So something that starts caustic can certainly turn fruitful for all parties involved.  I just have yet to see it from those two community comments sections in particular.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 09:33:39 pm »
Yea, hostile isn't always bad.  Some of the most helpful AIW feedback I get is from folks who think a lot of what we've done is... well, their opinion isn't all that favorable ;)  But we can work with that, as there's a kind of mutual respect between us and those particular people.  If someone from the RPS crowd or whoever wants to reach out to us with that level of respect and willingness to work through the issues with us in that kind of back-and-forth fashion, then I think that would be a good thing.
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Offline Oralordos

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2013, 10:15:59 pm »
3) But even those who have some inkling of desire to help don't generally want to take responsibility for what they say: 
- They often speak in a very "armchair developer" tone like they have tons more ability-to-know than we do.  In some cases that's probably justified because it's not like we're experts in everything, but by the way it all sounds you'd think we were 5th graders doing game projects with class and the commenters were Valve developers coming in to give advice.  Actually the Valve developers would probably be less condescending in that situation.
Valve actually is less condescending, they put your stuff on Steam without needing Greenlight or anything. So apparently they think you are doing something right.

P.S. I agree you are doing something right. I hope that Valley 2 gets revisited for an expansion sometime in the future too.

Offline lutherblissett

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2013, 10:22:17 pm »
Wow this game looks great.  I've been out of the loop - no time for games but RPS brought me back to check this out.
I'd say the broader majority of RPS commenters at the moment are adolescent boys, men who act like adolescent boys and trolls.  Which is a shame since the contributors are all pretty cool.  Quarter to Three forum's have a much higher ratio of enthusiastic human being to troll idiot ratio. 
Here is an interesting diagram of a Troll :- http://dangerousminds.net/comments/internet_troll_diagram_nsfw-ish
I'm looking forward to Skyward Collapse - love building games and looks like interesting strategy as well.
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Offline doctorfrog

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2013, 10:48:48 pm »
To Keith and Chris: your responses to this thread are a big reason why the community you have continues to exist. You're clearly willing to put effort into responding to even the most taxing of inquiries, and are both open and willing to filter through criticism to see what you're able to use.

I can also see sometimes the strain of wanting to implement some of the vague changes the "armchair developers" want, and bending over backwards to explain why it's not accessible at present... or ever.

For what it's worth, I think you're on the right track as a developer. Even when I look at games that I don't necessarily love the way I do AI War, I know the level of dedication that Arcen has to their games, means that games aren't just products that are pushed out, milked, cataloged, discarded, but treated as projects in a continual state of improvement. But I've also seen other companies I really like rise and fall, and I don't want the same to happen to you guys. I think you know where I'm coming from.

For some games, like Valley 1 and 2, I sometimes hope they will, over time, see similar growth to AI War. AI War is almost totally unrecognizable as a game from its inception, it's had a hell of a journey so far. The big names in the Arcen catalog have an arc that you don't see from big industry, or the usual indie darlings.

This is a pretty difficult/impossible thing to communicate to others, it's something that gathers over time. Phil Fish's method was to keep working on Fez until he thought it was perfect, and he got a lot of flak over that... some of it deserved. So clearly you can't have everything you want.

To conclude, my summary post from RPS wasn't a "fix this now" list, but a service that I, a community member and infrequent contributer, but longtime supporter, am trying to bring some outside commentary. I think you guys are receiving it in just the right way.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2013, 11:34:38 pm »
You know, speaking of AI War's journey, how far back do the version notes go on the wiki? That might be a interesting thing to look at sometime if I have a lot of time and nothing to do otherwise.

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2013, 12:12:19 am »
I don't know if I could read something like that, but a navelgazing retrospective on the game and it's twists and turns would be fun to read.

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2013, 01:33:05 am »
Case in point: Miasmata is a game that gets a lot of forgiveness due to potential and being indie. Still not sure why it does...

Maybe because they nailed it on the environment graphics? Hmm, it goes back to graphics again... Hopefully that's not it!

About Skyward Collapse, I was actually impressed with the way the game looks, but as long as the gameplay is good who cares. That's what your games are about anyhow.

The environmental graphics are...well...suboptimal at best, pre-Half Life 2 at worst. And the fact that I'm still comparing graphics in games to HL2 really needs to stop one of these days. But I digress. You are probably right. It's something I've noticed a LOT lately that people will get blinded by "amazing graphics" to the point that they ignore the gameplay itself. Bioshock Infinite is the prime example I can pull up but I can also say Aliens: Colonial Marines, Star Trek (the game) and other movie-tie ins. People get this idea that because it has a great graphics to it, it's the best game evar. Surprise: it isn't. And it's why I've been getting more critical about games that try and throw shiny graphics at me without providing solid gameplay. Gawds, Miasmata was the most disappointing game of this year. I actually had the creature's AI break on me and I scrapped the game shortly after that happened because it broke the immersion. I heavily criticized the developer in a review on the game later...

It's why I don't plan on buying Infinite because I've taken some really extensive looks at the gameplay and there are way too many warning bells for me to want to try it at this point. Lackluster combat, lack of exploration, fairly on-rails. Not what I want in an FPS. It's unfortunate that games seem to be heading towards movie formulas lately. Throw tons of graphics at the player, put it on rails, add a "great" story and people will buy it up. Disappointing as heck. If I wanted a movie experience, I'd go see a movie.

So to Chris, I say bring on the gameplay rich games and don't worry about shiny graphics. Because I'm fed up with shiny graphics. I want game mechanics that legitimately keep me interested for a long time. It's why I've played AI War for over 213 hours over the past four years and I'm not done with that game. It looks like the next expansion will keep me just as interested.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:38:47 am by KingIsaacLinksr »
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Offline Misery

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2013, 02:16:40 am »

I'd say the broader majority of RPS commenters at the moment are adolescent boys, men who act like adolescent boys and trolls.  Which is a shame since the contributors are all pretty cool.  Quarter to Three forum's have a much higher ratio of enthusiastic human being to troll idiot ratio. 


Yeah, pretty much.  Though, that's often the same with pretty much any site, the commenters are usually like that.

There's a specific line I like to repeat in relation to the negativity issue:  "The negative players are always the most vocal".  It's something that's worth remembering on any site that involves comments, or a forum, regardless of the game involved.   The Minecraft forums are always my favorite example:  Just by reading those, you'd think it was an entire community of people that HAAAAAAATE the game.  It's that bad.  But while the negative ones constantly post, well.... the positive ones are off enjoying the game and doing other things.

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2013, 05:50:25 am »
Quote
For what it's worth, I think you're on the right track as a developer. Even when I look at games that I don't necessarily love the way I do AI War, I know the level of dedication that Arcen has to their games, means that games aren't just products that are pushed out, milked, cataloged, discarded, but treated as projects in a continual state of improvement.

I completely agree that Arcen are on the right track. They have tremendous integrity, great concepts, huge work ethic, and the degree that they interact with fans is unparalleled. However, my one main bugbear with them is that they absolutely are "push out" developers. At least from what I've seen during the making of AVWW2, SH, and SC. Rather than adopt a "it's finished when it's finished" mentality, Arcen's mentality seems more like "it's finished whenever the next harsh deadline comes around -- no matter what (we have to cut)". Of course, I'm sure that this is partly due to the financial pressures that the company has been under this year, which is why I'm rooting for SC to be a huge hit so that the company can get a bit more breathing room, but rushing games out is certainly something I associate with Arcen. I can't say what the situation was like for AIWar or AVWW1, though, as I wasn't around the boards then.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 06:01:12 am by Pepisolo »

Offline x4000

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2013, 07:51:49 am »
Thanks folks. :)

Regarding "it's done when it's done." There are exactly two kinds of developers who can do that: those who don't need the income from their games to survive because it is not their main job; and those that don't need the income from their next game because they are already incredibly rich.

The reality is that almost all developers are "push out" developers, as are most software developers in general. It's called a budget and a schedule, and we actually take more liberties wih ours than most developers are able to. Valley 2 was delayed by 3 months because it wasn't good enough prior to that. Shattered Haven was put on ice for 4 years while I figured out its needs. Skyward Collapse has always been meant to be small and focused, and there's nothing that has been cut that I'd want to put back in if I had more time. Google "kill your darlings," seriously.

I think the reason you have this impression of Arcen being "push out" where you might not with other developers is two fold. First, we're open about the process rather than closed. Do you think the PR dudes at most big companies would ever let us even hint at these things? Everything is rosy until the day the studio suddenly folds. And with indie developers, loads of them never make a second game, let alone a sixth. And many of those that do are under just as much deadline pressure as us, if not more. Some have mentioned it, others keep it mum except among colleagues.

Secondly, we don't really toot constantly about our own financial pressures until they start coming to a head. Valley 1 went 6 months over schedule to make sure it was as good as possible at the end, and we had -$6k in money when it launched. Less when Valley 2 launched. I completely avoided taking a salary this year until this month to make sure that the projects could get out in a quality way while we also didn't shed staff.

With Skyward we're showing more discipline, have a stronger central idea, and are not letting scope creep take over the project. Nothing from our original beta-level designs has been cut except for crime, which was a late addition and turned out neither to be fun nor needed. Well, chapmen and traders were also cut for the same reasons, but they were not exactly direct gameplay in the decision making sense. Edicts were cut, but those were not in the original design and they've been actually replaced by something both more complex to code and more interesting. Same with score getting wrapped into that. All of that falls under prototyping iterations rather than cutting for time, anyhow.

Anyway, none of these are the attributes of a developer just pushing stuff out willy nilly. If I had more money then of course I'd take another month at least. Some of that would be extra playtesting time and time for minor polish, and the rest would be so that I could skip working nights and weekends. Other than that... feature-wise nothing would change. That's the idea here: Skyward is tight and interesting, and we'll see how it does. If well, then expansions. It will take multiple expansions to reach the price of a copy of just the base game of Valley 1, and I think this model is smarter for both us and consumers in general.

Hopefully that makes sense. I guess one of the pitfalls about being more publicly open than average is that people attribute industry-wide things just to us. I can tell you that most studios are rushing at least as much as, if not more than, us. If you want some depressing validation of that statement from public anonymous sources, read the submissions to The Trenches. But privately I've heard much the same from developers of all sizes. I want to be able to rise above that like, say, Valve. But I think that Valve Time shows that even that has drawbacks. Still it's what I aspire to, but which only a handful of game developers seem to have achieved. The rest are just blowing sunshine and rainbows in your face while I'm not. ;) i think it's interesting to show how the hotdog is made, even though its mess messy messy. Seriously, check out The Trenches.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 08:03:35 am by x4000 »
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Offline Mick

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2013, 08:00:02 am »
Google "kill your darlings," seriously.

The phrase appears to be about some Harry Potter movie.

Offline x4000

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2013, 08:12:58 am »
Google "kill your darlings," seriously.

The phrase appears to be about some Harry Potter movie.

Okay, wow. That movie is new and has google-bombed a super common phrase. I mean it in the sense of writing. It's originally a William Faulkner quote.

http://writerunboxed.com/2013/03/31/killing-your-darlings-is-not-enough/

Usually the interpretation I've had is that you have to excise those "personal favorite" bits of a project that nonetheless don't fit with the project as a whole and make it flabby. Many novels that reach publication see a minor character and their entire plotline excised, for instance. Why? They added little to the book and therefore needed to go.
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Offline madcow

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Re: Rock Paper Collapse
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2013, 08:55:46 am »
Haha, I was getting that it was a 2013 movie in the Sundance Film Festival. I was thinking, interesting - I'm not sure how that's relevant but very chic of you!

And yeah, I've read those stories about the big publishers that burn people out on the crunch time. Or Indie Game the Movie and its delving into the plight of game devs. It's still easy to forget when there's the likes of Valve and (depending on the game) Blizzard with their mantra.  Always good to get a bit of a reminder though. It somewhat reminds me of grad school actually! Working nights/weekends locked away for barely any money, pouring your heart/soul into it, the bad reviews and occasional 'bout of soul crushing depressing ;)