Rock Paper Collapse

[x4000]

What is interesting is that the last time there was an article about AI War on RPS, it was filled with love.  This was just a few months ago.  So... what?  I guess we're just a one-hit wonder to them or something.

[madcow]

RPS commenter's opinion on Arcen seems to be, "What this isn't more AI Wars? I hate it. Also its not pretty enough for me." With a sprinkling of love thrown in of course.

[iozay]

The thing with human nature is that they are usually sceptical against things that are.... Different. Yet people can turn 180 degrees whenever they try it(As long it is not too different, and depending on the kind of people). Usually the negative criticism is much more than the positive one as negativity is simply a more dominant feeling.

Nonetheless, the game is great and has improved a lot over a small time, you should be proud

[madcow]

The other thing about human nature is that people on the internet love to <expletive deleted> all over things, especially things they haven't tried and don't know anything about or have any sort of -informed- opinion on.

[iozay]

Welcome to the art of trolling Better to ignore it and go for what counts(The honest opinions). I feel sad for developers considering they tend to put their heart and souls into the products they develop and yet people tend to burn it over every small disagreement in a non-constructive manner(Which might sometimes come down to personal taste).

In the case of Arcen it is especially sad considering Arcen as a company is quite open by nature and clearly focusses to adapt on all forms of constructive criticism if possible. - Something that only the most passionate people (in their jobs) are able to do.

[Professor Paul1290]

To give my take on this I'll have to play the part of the a**hole again. (oh boy, I'm gonna regret this)

AVWW 1+2 and SH were not very well received at all on RPS, IndieGame, and some similar sites, and people there did not like how they looked nor how they played. The only game that was both well received and well known there is AI War (Tidalis barely exists for this purpose).

AVWW 2 and SH really made this worse. The former is seen as an attempt to correct it's predecessor that also failed again, and the latter seems like a cheap GameMaker game (whether it is or not doesn't matter here, people see it that way) that isn't well reviewed enough to be worth checking out.
Regardless of what happens internally or community-wise, from an outsider's perspective that looks very bad.

On top of that Arcen has a taste in aesthetics that, while not a bad thing in itself, does not conform to what is generally accepted as good compared to similar examples.
Unfortunately for that the majority matters in this case, and since the majority thinks it looks bad then it is bad for most intents and purposes regardless of the intentions behind it.


With the above perspective in mind, it's easy to see why RPS, IndieGames, and similar sites are not going to be very friendly, and that skepticism and even dislike are to be expected.
With the exception of AI War, Arcen does not have a positive reputation there anymore.


Anyway, that's more than enough of a**hole mode, time for more "Bang! You live here now and you worship this guy!".

[doctorfrog]

I can understand why Chris might not want to read negative comments, dude's got a game to make and doesn't want to lose steam for no good reason.

I can understand why some here will dismiss the comments as trolling, but I still feel that some of them, brutal though they may be, are legitimate criticisms of what they're seeing so far, and potentially represent typical customer responses. It would be as big a mistake to dismiss them as it would be to be too influenced by them.

Some of the RPS comments reflect how I've felt myself upon viewing the trailer. I think they are legit complaints and concerns. I've paraphrased/compiled them here:

• "Soon as I saw the combat my heart sank." "...Monty Python." This is due to the lack of unit animation, and weird "flying off the board" death. The units, as nice as the individual sprites may look, have a lifeless and 2-dimensional look. I (doctorfrog) literally laughed out loud when I saw the end of the trailer, secretly hoping it was just alpha footage. The look is of unintentional hilarity, more sad than endearing.
• "...the only things that looked wrong to me were the lack of animation (and the unit death effect) and one GUI window I saw there (gold border, black inside?)" Outside of AI War, there is generally something ugly about the UI of most other Arcen games. It can be hard to pin down what this is, but overall the UI's feel bulky and blurry, partly due to font choice and style (cartoonish with a thick outline) and partly due to garish color styling. I remember when x4 started putting in vividly bright planets in the background of AI War, it looked terrible, until enough folks complained to have a fader put in. My advice is to err on the side of blandness when it comes to UI elements and backgrounds, and leave the brashness to individual units on the map. You don't have to empty the crayon box on every inch of the screen, it just looks messy.
• "I hate — HATE — the font in all Arcen games. It’s the #1 thing that turns me off of their otherwise generally very interesting ideas, gameplay wise." See my previous comment. I feel like x4 may be investing too much color, texture, and personality in GUI elements, and a blander, less obvious UI is a worthwhile pursuit.
• "My enthusiasm for ArcEn has waned a bit. But another AI War expansion sounds about right. I really, really enjoyed the Ancient Shadow one." It would be a mistake for Arcen to think of itself as a one-hit-wonder. But undeniably, AI War is its best idea, and its best game.
• "I’m quite fond of AVWW and AI War (though admittedly rather more in a ‘these have really neat ideas’ way than actually being remotely competent at them)..." AI War was lightning in a bottle, capturing a great, revolutionary idea and creating a complex, fun game. The rest of the catalog seems to have tried other great twists in ideas, but somehow fail to capture that first shot of magic. What does this mean? Are the games too ambitiously different, "too interesting," and not enough fun? Do they just need enough developer love and consumer patience (and supplemental funding) to reach maturity? Is Arcen truly playing to its strengths? It's so hard to say; this would keep me awake nights.

Take 'em or leave 'em, but these are genuine feelings for a sizable chunk of audience, lots of whom will never post on these rather small forums. In my view, Arcen is indeed getting a reputation for interesting, but cheap-looking and easily-dismissed games, albeit with a small and faithful core audience. Is that a critical issue though? After all, Spiderweb software is still around, still putting out the narrow band of games they're known for, and have graphics issues aplenty. Perhaps it is because when they do what they do, they dive deep, knowing (or perhaps, not caring) that their core audience will be back for something that can't be had anywhere else.

[Teal_Blue]

This is an opinion only, and i probably am wrong, but i am trying to be helpful...

1.
         if RPS and other sites think Arcen is AIWar and they aren't even looking at the other games (which is a shame, because for variety and change Tidalis, AVWW1, AVWW2 and Shattered Haven all offer different feelings and styles and game play mechanics which is a cool thing to have in a studio, right? I like Variety!) Anyway, why not target to narrow and specific targets rather than broad base? Instead of Steam and everyone and get slammed by the griefers, why not find the strategy sites specifically and ignore the RPS and other whining sites for the Skyward Collapse promotionals?

1b.
        And really market to your own fan-base, which is us! By making pleas! Offering Specials and credits, and by putting peoples names in the game as characters? (I know it sounds tacky, but my college does it for bricks on campus to raise money for the school, by selling to the parents and alum, so i thought it might drum up a certain amount of revenue.

2.
         Also... and this sounds... well... one trick pony-ish, but if that is what they say, then why not ride that horse into the sunset and all the way to the bank? By that what i mean, is first of all, make more AIWar expansions (which you are already doing) and maybe a AIWar lite? I mean, like Bud, only less filling?   I know, i'm being silly, but what i mean is a you know, small, 'distilled' version of AIWar maybe, with fewer options and tricks and meant to be played in small 30-45 minute chunks, just an idea?

Maybe start up EoTM again, and even revamp AVWW1 & 2 and cast them in a AIWar environment, a land based 2D side-scroller with the normal characters, but all the enemies as AI bots?

Come out with a AIWar 2... where you play as the AI? (now that is an idea i really, really like)   

In other words, ride that horse on anything and everything and throw it in as spice on the projects that aren't AIWar just as seasoning. 

3.
         Take AI War and remake it, as a Western, with wagons and indians! As a Naval Battle Game! With Horatio Hornblower and Gregory Peck Duking it out on the High Seas! Turn AI War into a land-based tank and soldiers game with deserts and mountains and rivers to cross, where the tanks sometimes get caught in the rivers and get ruined, or the soldiers sit in the mountains and take rifle pot-shots at the convoys on the roads below and take out quite a few of the bad guys! 

Make AI War a Zeppelin game with old timey canon shots that fall off the mark, and ill-kept gunpowder that sometimes blows too soon, and sometimes too late! 

In other words beat that horse until you get past all this 'i'm making this game and their hating on me!' syndrome and you can get up in the morning and pay your bills and go on vacation and not have to sweat the griefers. And make your games in the AI War image, and maybe branch out into the strategy and tactics image, and eventually into the general 'Hey I feel like making a Dance game! kind of thing and you can do it, because you've got a base big enough to do what you want and not sweat it.' 

I know all this may sound silly, but I mean it, for real, i really do! And i would love it when RPS comes asking for a 'exclusive' and you tell them, "Sorry guys, I've got another mag that understands what i'm doing better, but thanks for the thought, you know?"



-Teal

[x4000]

I don't get the font complaints, specifically because almost all of our games have used different fonts. AI War started out with just Arial, for goodness sake.  "I don't like the font" is so incredibly nonspecific under those circumstances. We choose fonts that are clear, but have slightly more personality than a spreadsheet. Too much more and legibility goes in the hole.

In terms of animations or whatnot, if that holds someone back from getting a game then there's literally nothing I can do about it. Either that person isn't my customer, or they'll change their mind when they hear how awesome the game is. Point is, I try not to dwell on what I can't change.

Regarding our reputation at rps and indiegames.com, note that's only with the vocal commenters, and not even all of them. Clearly the sites think a lot more of us, or at least that we're newsworthy in general, as we get an inordinate volume of coverage there. I think that's also a factor in the decisions of the people who decide they don't like us.

In the end, Arcen doesn't and can't compete on art. Period. Maybe someday we can, and I certainly hope so, but right now it's a wash. We compete on gameplay and ideas, and overall that's worked out well for us so far.

Part of running a business is knowing your strengths and playing to them. We're not strong on art and never have been. We're taking steps to try to remedy that, but it's tough because we don't have a profit margin that makes that very easy. I could try to shift more budget from actual game development to just art, but that would be stupid since that would be diverting money from what we're best at to what we're worst at. Odds are we'd wind up with something pretty blah across the board there. So we take the slow approach, improving art as we can, and otherwise focusing on wowing with our ideas and gameplay.

All we can do, really. It's why I don't read the comments there -- there's no point. I know full well what they want: lush visuals fully animated at 60fps, preferably in 3d. That's just not feasible, so why torture myself with the comments? That doesn't make any sense.

Oh, as to the "Arcen aesthetic," I also find that amusing since that's so inconsistent as well. AI War looks like none of the others. Tidalis is a thing all to itself, and I think it looks gorgeous. It's all Phil Chabot. Valley 1 is all 3d stock art with filters on it, making it really distinctive (for good and ill). Valley 2 is all larger painterly stuff by HCS, who was completely new to us on that. Shattered Haven was also by HCS, but completely different artists in a completely different style. Skyward Collapse has more in common with Valley 2 than anything else, but still is really distinct and I think is our best looking title tied with Tidalis. Exodus is our last project with HCS, and it's a little familiar in certain aspects of style but in general it's own thing. And beyond that we'll be working with new artists, so who knows what the future holds.

Anyhow, the idea of an "Arcen aesthetic" amuses me.

All in all it's stressful, but the opinions at rps and indiegames.com comments are thankfully not indicative of the general opinion. They hated Valley 1 at launch, and it grossed $130k in a month. So whatever they feel, hey may be with the market or not, but it's coincidence either way to some extent. The market has lots of people who never lost anywhere at all, and they make up their minds from a variety of sources.

[Misery]

All in all it's stressful, but the opinions at rps and indiegames.com comments are thankfully not indicative of the general opinion. They hated Valley 1 at launch, and it grossed $130k in a month. So whatever they feel, hey may be with the market or not, but it's coincidence either way to some extent. The market has lots of people who never lost anywhere at all, and they make up their minds from a variety of sources.

I think this is the most important thing to keep in mind.   Heck, I've noticed at indiegames.com that this always happens with your games, but it sure as heck isnt just your games that does it.   And it really is alot like Youtube comments:   People are going to be 1000x more likely to post if they have something unpleasant to say, while others (that are positive) WONT post because it's like sticking their heads in acid.  Heck, pretty much every time on indiegames.com, there'll be negative posts, and then there'll be some people that jump in saying "Ok, that's enough, you know, these games are good, and there's more to it than just graphics, and...." and such, and they'll IMMEDIATELY get attacked by the negative ones with a holier-than-thou attitude, and.... ugh.   It's like clockwork.  And heck, you dont even have to do a "that's enough of that" kind of post to get that retaliation, you could just say "Wow, I think this looks pretty good" or "it looks like my kind of thing", and suddenly it's all screaming and yelling for the next 20 minutes.

I see it with Arcen titles, and I see it with.... well, honestly, *most* games I like that appear on there, as alot of games that I like end up being the ones that dont worry constantly about being hyper pretty.  I've learned to just not even bother with the comments.... as much as I really like indiegames.com for finding out about new games, the comments sections really are a major downer.   

And that thing about the fonts is probably the best example of that kind of stupidity.  I mean.... not buying or trying a game BECAUSE FONTS?!?   It sounds like a bad joke!  I've heard of some damn stupid reasons for not trying something, but that's got to be the absolute peak of it.

[x4000]

To make one further clarification: it's not that I don't care what people think; obviously, I think that's demonstrably not the case.  But when it comes to people who are complaining on certain sites, it seems like that does not correspond to sales or popularity for our titles. 

There doesn't seem to be much correlation to anything, really, which is I guess my original point: it's nerve-wracking each time because unless it's an expansion I have no idea what it's going to do.  For example, the following statements are all true:

- Our lowest metacritic-scored game (by a huge margin) is our second-highest earner, by a longshot (Valley 1).
- Our second-highest metacritic scored game (Tidalis) is our second-lowest earner, and likely will end up being our lowest earner once Shattered Haven has more time.
- Our biggest-budgeted game was our biggest loss in terms of net revenue (Valley 1).
- Our lowest-budget game (AI War) was our biggest earner and also our best-reviewed game on metacritic and elsewhere.
- Our most-loved game on sites like RPS and so forth (AI War) is our top-seller.
- Arguably our most-hated game on sites like RPS and so forth (Valley 1, though that's debatable; I'm basing it on most hate over the longest period of time) is our second-best seller by far.
- These days, Valley 1+2 make up about half our revenue, with AI War taking up about the other half, and the other games filling in the last 5% or so.  I.e., we depend on more than just AI War to stay alive nowadays.
- These days, a discount promotion on AI War or Valley 1+2 carries about the same weight in terms of earnings, a few outliers aside.
- Our least-publicized games prior to release were Tidalis, followed by Shattered Haven and then Valley 2.  (Note: I'm counting the AI War "release" as being its release on Steam.)
- Our lowest-earning games are, at the moment, Shattered Haven, followed by Tidalis, followed by Valley 2.  Though Tidalis and Shattered Haven are likely to flip long-term.
- If you ignore income from expansions and expansion-related life-extending effects on AI War, Valley 1 would be our top earner by a fair margin.
- All of the above was looking at net revenue, not at units sold (so it was ignoring the price of the games, which is probably a factor).
- If you look at units sold of the base games, Valley 1+2 stacks up more favorably compared to AI War.  Similarly, Tidalis and Shattered Haven stack up more favorably compared to all the rest, but still not very well.
- If you look at our catalog as a whole, ignoring specific games, our revenues have never failed to go up at least 20% in a year.  So we are doing something right.


Conclusions from this, which admittedly is a low amount of data:
1. Opinion on RPS and other sites does not seem to correlate to sales or popularity at all.
2. Ditto for metascore.
3. Amount of publicity and general marketing prior to release seems highly correlated.
4. AI War is our top seller largely because we've been growing it so avidly over the years, and fans have stuck with it.  We haven't really tried that with another property yet, though we probably will with Skyward unless it bombs.
5. Price doesn't seem to really be correlated either, although we're trying a low-price strategy with Skyward Collapse for a variety of reasons (market forces, among others).

[x4000]

@Misery: You ninja'd me, but that's another really good way of putting it.  I appreciate it.

[Mick]

4. AI War is our top seller largely because we've been growing it so avidly over the years, and fans have stuck with it.  We haven't really tried that with another property yet, though we probably will with Skyward unless it bombs.

Oh I really really hope it doesn't bomb. I see a ton of promise here, and a real gem if it ends up getting AI-War level love and attention.

[x4000]

I don't think it will bomb; the bar for this one is set very low in terms of what we have to earn for it to be profitable.  Lower than any game we've ever done other than AI War itself or an AI War expansion.  This is part of why the game is so inexpensive for customers, too.  Presuming we can break even with it, it only makes sense for us to at least try making this our first game other than AI War to see an expansion.  I have high hopes for the long-term viability of this game, too.  I really see this as being the third leg in the tripod supporting Arcen (AI War and Valley being the other two).  Knock on wood!

[Misery]

4. AI War is our top seller largely because we've been growing it so avidly over the years, and fans have stuck with it.  We haven't really tried that with another property yet, though we probably will with Skyward unless it bombs.

Oh I really really hope it doesn't bomb. I see a ton of promise here, and a real gem if it ends up getting AI-War level love and attention.

Aye, this.


I've played the Valley series absolutely to death, and would love to see more in that down the line, and SH turned out pretty good as well, but...  I think Skyward is the one that's grabbed me the most.  I love the overall concept and ideas, I love the way the strategy works out.... sort of a "Ok, my options are to nuke myself, or eat a pile of bees... how in the heck can I make use of THAT?" followed by that grand moment of suddenly figuring it out...  and I also love that hilarious "CRUNCH" sound units make when they die (seriously, never stop using those sound effects, that one has cracked me up pretty consistently).     AKA, I'd absolutely love to see expansions to this game.    I'll be disappointed as heck if it ends up not selling well enough for that, simply because.... because derp, that's why, which seems to sum up enough of the reasons for people NOT trying it out.