Author Topic: Player feedback request: Crime removal.  (Read 3603 times)

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2013, 02:20:34 pm »
 I don't think the current system is bad, it's the higher number with difficulty that constricts your options.  Fixing the rate w.r.t. difficulty will help.

 On the woes front, I think "removing X, use woes" is really too much faith in woes (something that we haven't seen in-game) - they're not a fix-all, and I do think the game can use a different regular pressure to bandits.  Perhaps increasing crime causes losses in resource income, kicking in from 20% - that may be worth trying.  Increases in difficulty then affects just bandit spawn-rates, and not crime-rates.

Quote
Going with Mick's idea on the bandits thing, what if we revamped how bandits are spawned?  Right now it's just a global number and bandits appear periodically based on the number, always on new tiles that are coming into the game (aside from the dead forest spawns, which are a different matter).  What if, instead:

1. There was no global "bandit spawn counter."
2. Instead there was a "percent chance of bandit spawn" on each tile on the map.  This starts at 0% and counts up every turn for every tile.
3. Every time a military unit is produced, the bandit spawn counter is reduced a certain amount in a certain radius.
4. If the percent chance gets high enough that a bandit spawns on a tile, then all the tiles within a certain radius of the tile that just got the bandit revert to 0% chance of a bandit for now.


There's a good chance that would be a #$^$& to balance, though...
 

 Definitely suspect this is going to be a #$^$& to balance, and not all that intuitive either. I like the location-based mechanism though.

 Taking both the suggestion and the desire to see a mini-woe out of it, would it be more intuitive to:
 - suppress the spawn rate based on the presence of military units (so they pop up where you are not actively protecting, and actively encourages more military without being able to directly specify where that protection is).
 - When bandits spawn, have a chance to spawn multiple of them at once based on nearby tiles (emulating a mini-woe, so that woes don't have the burden of creating bandit-threat).
 - Set chance to zero afterwards as before?

 More bandits at once will naturally make them a bigger influence, and the presence of military set-up will encourage them to spawn near the back-edges of the map.

  = = =
 More thoughts:

 With crime, what do people think of this simplification/alternative formulation:
 - When there's a military unit in/next to a town, crime goes down (fast).
 - When there's no military unit in town, crime goes up (slow).
 
 What this does is to:
 - free a town from having to make a military building at all.
 - but it also places higher crime pressure against the current habit of setting up protected resources towns in the back. Encourages placement of military buildings at the back of all of your towns, which will change as you expand deeper and makes relative arrangement of towns a larger factor.
 - Give players an interactive/dynamic control over crime by altering military flow-paths, as they act like patrols. Players are free to build all-resource towns in the back if they periodically place tokens/ruins to suppress crime there. Or, they can build it at the front, in the line of fire. Or, they build military buildings in every town.

 I think it's more intuitive to say that the continual presence of police forces encourage on-time payment of taxes/spawning of bandits, than the creation of said force. Depends on how you think of crime in the game.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 02:38:59 pm by zharmad »

Offline Mick

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2013, 02:44:39 pm »
I think of AI War, and how fun that would be if building up turrets and military meant that the AI sent waves less often or with less ships in it.


In case this wasn't clear, I was implying it would be less fun.

Offline x4000

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2013, 02:46:38 pm »
Okay, let's take a step back here:

1. Opinion is pretty divided.
2. At best, anything suggested (including my thing and all the others) is going to be a @#%#$ to balance, and possibly/probably still divisive.
3. Time is finite.
4. There are other things (woes, etc) that everyone is more excited for.
5. Therefore crime should be removed and nothing put back in its place (woes and bandits kind of fill that niche anyhow).

Thoughts?
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Offline Mick

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2013, 02:48:55 pm »
Okay, let's take a step back here:

1. Opinion is pretty divided.
2. At best, anything suggested (including my thing and all the others) is going to be a @#%#$ to balance, and possibly/probably still divisive.
3. Time is finite.
4. There are other things (woes, etc) that everyone is more excited for.
5. Therefore crime should be removed and nothing put back in its place (woes and bandits kind of fill that niche anyhow).

Thoughts?

Agree!

Offline Pepisolo

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2013, 02:52:31 pm »
Yeah, just remove it, and concentrate on Woes instead. I don't think you're going to lose anything major. Just gain a bit more simplicity.

Offline Greywolf22

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2013, 03:01:49 pm »
Yep I agree as well.

Offline SRombauts

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2013, 03:06:49 pm »
5. Therefore crime should be removed and nothing put back in its place (woes and bandits kind of fill that niche anyhow).

Thoughts?

So you are thinking of removing the crime rates, but keeping bandits? Then how would you spawn them?

KISS principle!
What I would suggest is  :
- have a fixed/deterministic Base Bandit Spawn Rate (base on current difficulty level and round, like the actual crime rate)
- make it clear, show it on a corner?
- have nothing influence it
- then spawn bandits in any tile based on this Rate, with factor like "dead forest have 8x the base crime rate"

What do you think?

edit: so I agree on removing the Crime Rate, but still spawn bandits, they add a lot to the fun when you have to deal with them!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 03:08:39 pm by SRombauts »

Offline SRombauts

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2013, 03:13:56 pm »
Okay, that's exactly it:
http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Skyward_Collapse_-_Pre-Beta_Release_Notes#Crime_Free.21

Quote from: x4000
Crime Free!
- The concept of crime has been entirely removed from the game, as it was fiddly and didn't add to fun or strategy at this point.
-- Thanks to Misery for inspiring this change.
- Embassies did contribute to crime previously, so those had to be rethought a bit:
--For each embassy on the map, bandit spawn rates are increased by 1x the base rate. So with one embassy the spawn rates are twice as fast, two embassies are thrice as fast, etc.

Cheers!

Offline Mick

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2013, 03:14:45 pm »


So you are thinking of removing the crime rates, but keeping bandits? Then how would you spawn them?


I believe they already spawned independent of crime. Crime was just something that caused buildings to flip to them.

Offline SRombauts

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2013, 03:20:10 pm »
I believe they already spawned independent of crime. Crime was just something that caused buildings to flip to them.

Oh, yeah, you are right, I remember reading that... now I understand why my last game, yesterday, was having bandits while I was sure having a very low crime rate.

Then the Crime removal will make the whole thing a lot more clear.

Offline SRombauts

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2013, 03:23:35 pm »
Then, next step will be Bandits capturing the buildings instead of destroying them;

=> When a building reach 0 HP, they could just flip to the yellow flag instead of the white one if there is a bandit around!

I'm exited about this idea :)

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2013, 03:25:03 pm »
Okay, good call - go for it.

Don't forget that removal of crime will ease the pressure on players' military - upping the base spawn rate of bandits, or rather group them up a bit more, would compensate. Potentially add this to bandits capturing buildings. More chaos, plz. ;P

Offline Cinth

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2013, 03:49:39 pm »
Crime => gone

Use the difficulty and rounds to increase the rate bandits spawn.

Difficulty sets the base, so the higher the difficulty, the more bandits that spawn.
Rounds should act as a small multiplier.  Round one not so bad, Round 3 (Expert 4) they are coming out of the woodwork :)


You could even give existing tiles a % chance to spawn unless you want to keep that as a dead forest thing.
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2013, 04:52:14 pm »
Okay, let's take a step back here:

1. Opinion is pretty divided.
2. At best, anything suggested (including my thing and all the others) is going to be a @#%#$ to balance, and possibly/probably still divisive.
3. Time is finite.
4. There are other things (woes, etc) that everyone is more excited for.
5. Therefore crime should be removed and nothing put back in its place (woes and bandits kind of fill that niche anyhow).

Thoughts?


I would suggest 'beefing up' crime to a more substantial point to make it effective in the early turns and tweak it as best you can for now. Yanking systems only makes the game more simplistic and reduces the number of interesting interactions in the game, which while perhaps not perfect, is better than a simple game.

I would prefer to keep as many 'systems' in the game to keep the gameplay and mechanics varied as much as possible.

just mho
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Offline x4000

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Re: Player feedback request: Crime removal.
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2013, 05:01:06 pm »
Regarding bandit beefiness and chaos from that: I've not upped that at all, so you're right that the military pressure is lower.  But let's not get carried away until the woes are in place; those are going to be adding some big-time pressure on your military as it is, so I have a feeling those will more than make up for crime.
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