Author Topic: Developer question: What god powers or mythological tokens don't you use?  (Read 4314 times)

Offline Winge

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I've used Labyrinth for a few extra points and to level the playing field a bit.  Note, however, that I had Heimdall's Ragnarok ready as soon as the effect ended.  Overall, using Labyrinth is very difficult to justify.

I don't often use Yggdrasil, but it is major fun when I do.  I haven't used Fenrir much either, but I will start to use him more near the end of the game to earn a few extra points.

I've yet to seriously use Palladium, for obvious reasons.  That one feels like it needs a higher score attached to it.  I stopped using Nemean Lion after Gods no longer automatically attacked units--I think the invulnerability to human attacks needs to be changed, but I am not sure how.
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Offline PokerChen

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New myth tokens analysis list for 0.954 (Expert/Insane):

Greek side
Quite situational:
- Labyrinth. I did use this quite a bit before scoring. Now, the bandit fortresses and a new-found desire to level towns with only red/blue units have replaced my previous need to keep the red and blue army fighting on the field. It was fun boosting their health 10x with Ares and then converting them for a free unstoppable cow-herd, but otherwise no. I see situational use for these only if I can convert the bandit minotaurs with a minor God.
- Nemean Lion. I prefer Pandora's current stats. It's weaker, harder to control, and with no boost to health there's a fairly high chance that a bandit mythological creature is going to come along and undo this handiwork.
- Hebes. A weaker version of Heimdall's passive, and with the Greek's stronger human military, this doesn't quite belong in their arsenal. I will bust one out if I need a few chimeras to do their wrecking ball work. Cerebii has always been somewhat useless since if they're guarding a choke you can't pass allied military through. Minotaurs are generally locked, but can also be boosted likewise. Centaurs don't need Hebe. Gods don't get targeted!

Sometime use:
- Adamantium. You'll need it to bust through a set of fortresses (at 30K health, seems to be much more efficient than trying to grow resources for multiple siege units). Control issue is fine as non-siege units can be readily worn down.
- Cornucopia. The Greek have been dominating and see no need for it in previous games.

High likelihood of use:
- Chair of Forget. Definite go-to to when stalling the bandit onslaught.
- Palladium. Same stalling mechanism as above.
- Pandora's Box. Generally superior to other analogous tokens.

Norse Side
Quite situational:
- Fenrir. Only used for killing Gods at the end of the game.
- Hlidskjalf. Range doubling generally make the game-flow harder to control on the attack. It is sometimes necessary to rescue a Norse game on the edge of destruction.

Sometime use:
- Yggdrasil and Eldhrimnir. These two go together. They could use a power boost (see mantis), like the previous mythological creatures, Idunn, Athena and Odin, the units that pop out become increasingly irrelevant in the Age of Gods. No one cares about a lone lvl 1 shotput in an enemy town. So, these are generally relegated to distraction duty.
- Brokkr. The amount of stone and wood that a Norse army chews through!
- Singastein. This one feels okay - but limited by (1) ranged units don't receive return damage and (2) bandits move before red or blue can obsolete it, like the Nemean Lion. Will still use Pandora from the opposing side before this.

High likelihood:
- Midgard. Smiting building ruins with this one is now highly desired. Random tiles falling away will also isolate towns and keep them safe from marauding hordes.
- Norns. Because summoning 9 frost giants on your first free turn isn't wonderful.


General comments
The Fey Moon woe comments obsoletes all human-boosting tokens. You don't want them alive when they turn yellow. At least with Black Plague they all die instead, giving you control of the board.
To me, Greek tokens feel a little more potent across the board. Norse tokens are qualitatively different, and are generally more expensive. Greek tokens are universal boosts to units and complete impunity to building destruction. The fact that Greeks can control building destruction and Norse can't, might make a Norse/Norse game very difficult and Greek/Greek game very easy.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 04:47:27 am by zharmad »

Offline Misery

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New myth tokens analysis list for 0.954 (Expert/Insane):

Greek side
Quite situational:
- Labyrinth. I did use this quite a bit before scoring. Now, the bandit fortresses and a new-found desire to level towns with only red/blue units have replaced my previous need to keep the red and blue army fighting on the field. It was fun boosting their health 10x with Ares and then converting them for a free unstoppable cow-herd, but otherwise no. I see situational use for these only if I can convert the bandit minotaurs with a minor God.
- Nemean Lion. I prefer Pandora's current stats. It's weaker, harder to control, and with no boost to health there's a fairly high chance that a bandit mythological creature is going to come along and undo this handiwork.
- Hebes. A weaker version of Heimdall's passive, and with the Greek's stronger human military, this doesn't quite belong in their arsenal. I will bust one out if I need a few chimeras to do their wrecking ball work. Cerebii has always been somewhat useless since if they're guarding a choke you can't pass allied military through. Minotaurs are generally locked, but can also be boosted likewise. Centaurs don't need Hebe. Gods don't get targeted!

Sometime use:
- Adamantium. You'll need it to bust through a set of fortresses (at 30K health, seems to be much more efficient than trying to grow resources for multiple siege units). Control issue is fine as non-siege units can be readily worn down.
- Cornucopia. The Greek have been dominating and see no need for it in previous games.

High likelihood of use:
- Chair of Forget. Definite go-to to when stalling the bandit onslaught.
- Palladium. Same stalling mechanism as above.
- Pandora's Box. Generally superior to other analogous tokens.

Norse Side
Quite situational:
- Fenrir. Only used for killing Gods at the end of the game.
- Hlidskjalf. Range doubling generally make the game-flow harder to control on the attack. It is sometimes necessary to rescue a Norse game on the edge of destruction.

Sometime use:
- Yggdrasil and Eldhrimnir. These two go together. They could use a power boost (see mantis), like the previous mythological creatures, Idunn and Odin, the units that pop out become increasingly irrelevant in the Age of Gods. No one cares about a lone lvl 1 shotput in an enemy town. So, these are generally relegated to distraction duty.
- Brokkr. The amount of stone and wood that a Norse army chews through!
- Singastein. This one feels okay - but limited by (1) ranged units don't receive return damage and (2) bandits move before red or blue can obsolete it, like the Nemean Lion. Will still use Pandora from the opposing side before this.

High likelihood:
- Midgard. Smiting building ruins with this one is now highly desired. Random tiles falling away will also isolate towns and keep them safe from marauding hordes.
- Norns. Because summoning 9 frost giants on your first free turn isn't wonderful.


General comments
The Fey Moon woe comments obsoletes all human-boosting tokens. You don't want them alive when they turn yellow. At least with Black Plague they all die instead, giving you control of the board.
To me, Greek tokens feel a little more potent across the board. Norse tokens are qualitatively different, and are generally more expensive. Greek tokens are universal boosts to units and complete impunity to building destruction. The fact that Greeks can control building destruction and Norse can't, might make a Norse/Norse game very difficult and Greek/Greek game very easy.


Hmm, some interesting stuff here.

Agreed on Hebes.   The Greek already have a couple of very easy to use, passive-benefit types (Cornucopia, Palladium), and the effect of this one just also doesnt really have much in the way of impact.  No risk, either. 

Agreed on Fenrir as well.   I dont think I've ever once used that one.  I *might* use it to knock out Pan, possibly, but I havent done so yet.   Not sure just yet on other gods.   

Hlidskjalf (agh, that name, it's like someone named it by dropping a cat on a keyboard), this one actually seemed kinda weak to me... so it's interesting to see your thoughts on it here varying so much from mine.   In my own experience it doesnt have enough impact, and is too easy to control and doesnt have much push to the balance of the fight.

Pandora is the one that gives me trouble, I end up with hyper-boosted units rampaging all over the place.   Not that it should be CHANGED, mind you.  It's interesting, which is good.

Singastein I actually seem to use pretty often.

Midgard is great.  Sure can screw up the landscape though!  Really like that one.

Also agreed on Eldhrimner, level 1 units only matter early on.   Needs some sort of boost.

Offline PokerChen

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Hildskjalf is only good if you drop it on units with at least range 5 (long-bowmen and ballistae), and preferably also blood-lusted from Mars rising. Range 4 is so-so. Sniping from further than the sight-range and movement range of enemy units probably makes all the difference in the outcome, since the token provides no other protection.
Once the ballistae get unlocked, I'll have to try sniping bandit fortresses from 14 tiles away. Theoretically more efficient than trying to drive a battering ram through their unit spam.

My Norse openings usually end up with a town dedicated to their range-5 bowmen. I find that their human army needs concentration of ranged firepower to knock out the stronger greek forces, and then they'll level up due to the Veteran system. If I then give Hildskjalf to that, it gets difficult to maintain a Greek frontline away from their town centers (in general only 8 tiles away).

There's a Wesnoth analogy for this in terms of damage output per hex - factions with weaker units needs more firepower per target tile to tip the balance of a large-scale conflict. For every unit that is not range 5, I would prefer Pandoras given to low-level units.. ( Pandoras should only ever be given to melee units. ;) ) Dividing towns into synchronised and dedicated melee/ranged production is the best way to ensure that the right units get the right tokens.

Offline x4000

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Boom:

* Labyrinth has been updated to no longer spawn bandit minotaurs, but instead to spawn both one red and one blue minotaur at random places on the map.
** The cooldown on this token has also been greatly increased.

* The function of Nemean Lion has been greatly changed to make it more interesting:
** Grants the first five non-bandit humans to claim it a 3x attack bonus as well as full immunity attacks from bandits.

* The function of Hebe has been completely redone.
** All current and incoming woes are cancelled during the time she is active, and no new woes can arrive until she leaves.  Does not work against Catastrophic woes.
** She also now requires sunstone to be used, and has a super long cooldown.  Use her with care!

* Cornucopia now works on both factions, instead of just the faction that initiated it.

* Pandora's Box has been updated:
** Rather than spawning bandits each turn, it now causes the next woe countdown to happen thrice as fast each turn while it is active.

* Fixed a bug where Palladium was mistakenly making buildings of ALL sides invincible, rather than just the faction it belonged to.

* Completely changed how Fenrir works, since he was way too underwhelmingly situational. The new function:
** All military units from both factions temporarily get a 30x attack bonus against bandit units and bandit structures.
** The cooldown for him has been greatly increased, and he also now costs negative points.
** Related, the Skadi's Wolf token has had its cooldown increased as well.

* Yggdrasil has been updated to be more powerful later in the game:
** The level of the doppelgangers are now higher in later ages.

* Eldhrimnir has been updated to be more powerful later in the game:
** The level of the newly-alive unit increases as the ages go up.

* Singasteinn has been updated to be a bit more powerful.
** It also now grants immunity from ranged attacks.
** It's cooldown time has been correspondingly increased a bit.
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Offline x4000

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I hadn't planned on doing all that stuff this morning, but I want the abilities on the sidebar in particular to all be relevant and exciting right at release.  As the game evolved through alpha, a lot of these got super stale, so it was time for an update for sure to make them not feel oddly out of place.
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Offline chemical_art

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Sounds good Chris, so far I've only used Midgar as a temporary effect but that was satsifying enough. Did exactly as it said it would, and felt good.
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Offline x4000

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Awesome. :)  And glad the game has finally gelled for you, by the way; saw that note in another thread, but am still rushing around with last polish/balance stuff.
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Offline Misery

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Wow, all of these look much better now.   That should make things alot more interesting in general.