Developers requesting feedback: Which Woes are too woe-inducing?

[x4000]

Hello there!  From this:

Honestly it seems like what people are most interested for the game at this point is refinements of that sort of nature, versus more woes.  I'm becoming increasingly inclined to put more woes mostly on hold until post-1.0, and instead focus on that sort of thing.  What are people's reactions to that?  Are the current woes varied enough to not get stale for the time being?

And this:

I think Woes could probably wait. Woes could be amazing, and I'd really like you to take as much time as possible on them. Maybe a quick review of the current Woes would be good and a bit of Woe polishing, but that's about it. Adding new Woes doesn't seem like it's imperative at the moment. It might not be too bad an idea to post another developers question regarding the current Woes. Which ones work, are the most fun etc. Hmmm, said Woe a lot there. "Whoa".

We get this thread.  Thoughts?

[Mick]

I feel like I'm going to have to take a stab at score gated version of the game to get a sense of the difficulty of things, but I know that in my last normal-1 game, Norse had a vegetarian uprising that lasted like 11-14 turns or something like that (I don't remember the exact number).

It pretty much could have been "you cannot build any military at all", because that's basically what it is. I was able to survive it by basically just building up my towns faster than the blue could destroy them - and they were doing it pretty fast because I had kinda stupidly made blue a whole ton of siege to take out a bandit. Still though, it wasn't TOO big a deal.

What surprised me though was that the effects of this woe were basically hitting you in three different ways:

* You could not make any military.
* Your meat producing buildings were all effectively "paused" for the entire duration, so they were useless.
* (This surprised me and I wasn't expecting it based on the description) My meat stockpile was destroyed completely.

The third one I thought was a little much. I wasn't really taking the woe into account, but if I was in late game or on a harder difficulty my natural reaction would be "well if we're not going to produce/consume meat, I better build up a big stockpile to be ready when the woe ends". Of course, my stockpile would be deleted and I'd then flip the table (well not literally).

So I think this woe needs to be modified, or the description needs to be changed to reflect what it does.

[Pepisolo]

One thing that I've noticed a few time regarding the Serial Killer Woe, which I believe is still the case, is that you hardly seem to notice it hit at all. When the Woe hits I keep expecting to see a serial killer unit appear on the screen and watch it taking out the various units, but nothing really seems to even happen. Or you don't seem to notice it anyway. Maybe the units that are about to be taken out should be focussed on one by one as they are eliminated. It seems like one of those very anti-climactic Woes at the moment.

[PokerChen]

I feel like I'm going to have to take a stab at score gated version of the game to get a sense of the difficulty of things, but I know that in my last normal-1 game, Norse had a vegetarian uprising that lasted like 11-14 turns or something like that (I don't remember the exact number).

I'm going to add to Mick's concerns here, although I haven't played woes at low frequencies: Do these resource denial woes last until the next woe strikes? If so, they become a lot more devastating the slower your woes come. Just reiterating a previous observation that woes(reduce variety of player influence) seem to be the least fun ones to have.  Will play soon to double-check.

[x4000]

I feel like I'm going to have to take a stab at score gated version of the game to get a sense of the difficulty of things, but I know that in my last normal-1 game, Norse had a vegetarian uprising that lasted like 11-14 turns or something like that (I don't remember the exact number).

I'm going to add to Mick's concerns here, although I haven't played woes at low frequencies: Do these resource denial woes last until the next woe strikes? If so, they become a lot more devastating the slower your woes come. Just reiterating a previous observation that woes(reduce variety of player influence) seem to be the least fun ones to have.  Will play soon to double-check.

That's what they used to do, but they no longer do that (unless there's some issue).  They instead have a random range of how long they will last, and that range is shortened if the next woe is coming in faster.  It may be that some of these need to be way shorter ranges, frankly.

[orzelek]

I have the vegetarian woe atm.

It's quite ok with already mentioned exception - it should not destroy your stockpiles. In current form you can't even prepare for it really. You can partially counter it with cornucopia.
Also it's in effect for 10 turns and will end back to back with human vanity. I have woes frequency on Normal (setting update itself from previous Medium 2).

[x4000]

It doesn't destroy your stockpiles, it simply hides them.  Which is confusing, I know.  If you post your save, I can adjust that so that it doesn't hide them anymore.

[orzelek]

I noticed that they were hidden after it ended.
I would simply reduce the woe length a bit - 10 turns with no units produced will be especially hard on Norse. Greeks have a save in cornucopia so they are in better shape when hit by this. If it was 10 turns on medium how long it would be on expert?

[x4000]

Done.

[Misery]

I'm thinking that adding in more woes to the game is very definitely a good idea (they do get a bit stale when you start seeing the same ones repeat often enough), but refining each group of them is important too, so this sort of thread is a good idea.


I cant comment too much on specific ones just yet, as I cant think of any that really are like super messed up or anything.   Though there are some that seem very situational, to where if they appear outside of certain situations, they effectively dont do anything.   Like that "collapse" one, I think it's called, the ones that makes mountains into hills and other stuff into.... other stuff.   I've had that one show up, but.... not have really much effect.  It's not that it didn't have alot of tiles to mess with, because it did, it's that messing with them simply didn't alter anything.  Terrain differences never seem to have enough overall effect on things as it is (not in my experience anyway), so this one just doesnt seem to do much. 

[Cinth]

If you use mountains to create choke points in the middle of the battlefield, Collapse will undo it all.  I've had it happen several times.  Thankfully, Skadi is usually around so I normally say HA! and have her make me some mountains

[Misery]

If you use mountains to create choke points in the middle of the battlefield, Collapse will undo it all.  I've had it happen several times.  Thankfully, Skadi is usually around so I normally say HA! and have her make me some mountains

Hm, yeah, I've had that thought on them too.... mountains though barely even show up if you're playing on the difficulty levels that dont allow you to place them, same with lakes (both of these, really, should show up more in general...).  Which ends up meaning that the woe is only effective if you're playing on the very specific maps that actually HAVE mountains and such (as the others have pretty much none, all the time).   When it appears on any map that ISNT the mountain one, it's less of a "woe", and more of a "free rest period" because it's doing so little damage.

[Cinth]

I get what you are saying.  It's like getting Flood for your first woe on GF.  Flood?  It's going to rain?  There no water on this map at all!!  Yep, I know what you are talking about.  It might be that these types of woe should also be tied to map types as well.  Flood is pointless on GF unless you add water tiles yourself. 

What say ye, Master?

[Teal_Blue]

I'm thinking that adding in more woes to the game is very definitely a good idea (they do get a bit stale when you start seeing the same ones repeat often enough), but refining each group of them is important too, so this sort of thread is a good idea.


I cant comment too much on specific ones just yet, as I cant think of any that really are like super messed up or anything.   Though there are some that seem very situational, to where if they appear outside of certain situations, they effectively dont do anything.   Like that "collapse" one, I think it's called, the ones that makes mountains into hills and other stuff into.... other stuff.   I've had that one show up, but.... not have really much effect.  It's not that it didn't have alot of tiles to mess with, because it did, it's that messing with them simply didn't alter anything.  Terrain differences never seem to have enough overall effect on things as it is (not in my experience anyway), so this one just doesnt seem to do much.

This is just a post 1.0 suggestion, but what if the tiles later have different effects on different pieces, by that i mean, what if swamps slow siege wagons. and mountains slow soldiers, and pits slow bandits, etc... so what we are effectively doing on a small scale is giving weak points to each of the units. We could also throw in boosts as well if you wanted where mountains slow soldiers, but because of their marching stamina, they are very quick at moving through swamps, and pits slow bandits, but grasslands speed up bandits speed by 20% or something minor boost like that, so that all the pieces on the board have pluses and minuses to their use as they cross different terrain. 
In that way, the type of tile a piece crosses, or the strategy a player brings into focus as they move their pieces about have effects that we need to align as well.
Can i save my squad that is fighting the god over there by moving my siege wagons to attack the god? Or is going through those marshes going to slow me down so that i am going to lose my men over there before i ever get re-inforcements to them? (I don't know what units are good against what, but this is just a metaphore for using terrain and unit strengths and weaknesses on those terrains as an extra element in the strategy equation. 

So does it sound workable, or too crazy?
-Teal

[Misery]

The "Human Vanity" one:   Completely pointless if you dont have the score gating on.   Without that, it is just another "free rest period" kind of thing, since the vast majority of the units will simply stop doing anything for awhile.