Author Topic: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.  (Read 4218 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
So, one of the unexpected-but-not-really effects of the whole scorched-earth thing with towns is that late in the game it takes a bloody long time for military guys to get from one town to the next.  All this dead space in the middle of the board.  So, a few thoughts on that worth considering:

1. Is this even a problem?  Presuming that you are producing guys at a fixed rate at all of your towns, they will arrive at the enemy at a steady pace no matter what.  The only thing that changes is the reactiveness of changes you make to production; rather than a change you make affecting the mix of units at the enemy town in a turn or two, it's in four or five turns.  That's actually pretty cool.  If anyone has played the game Killer Bunnies, that sort of "make a decision, then have a delayed effect from it" mechanic is pretty interesting.  And it certainly makes the late game distinct from the early game.

2. If it is a problem, how do we help mitigate that?  I have a few ideas, but you might have more.

3. The most obvious thing is to have some collapses in the middle of the board, and then the tiles move back together to make a smaller continent again.  This has some problems, though, as it would be computationally very complex, potentially mess with what you are doing as a player, and potentially be unworkable anyhow depending on how you placed your towns (without REALLY messing with your continent).  So I think that this one is pretty much Right Out.

4. The next idea is to have some form of Portals system, that basically work like those in Valley 2.  Your guys can walk into any portal to get to any other portal.  The pathfinding for that is easy, and they would still target enemy towns just like they wanted.  Now, the problem here is that this is a little bit complex, and it could be frustrating if these portals are getting plopped down without your permission.  So it could be a form of land tile that only you can place directly (except perhaps on a new portal-tastic new map type, which would be cool).  This would solve the distance problem, but only if you WANTED it solved.  But the question is: what if the distance problem should be solved against your will?  Aka, to maintain balance?  There's no way to handle this in a non-frustrating way.

5. The next idea is to have kind of a "moving floor" system -- think those things in airports.  Your guys have a long way to go, so something accelerates them when they are on long stretches out in the middle of nowhere.  This could simply giving a 0 AP cost to move across building ruins.  And in fact, building ruins might gradually expand out from towns that are completely destroyed or something.  Thus the middle of the map eventually becomes just this barren post-apocalyptic barren system of ruins.  Kind of interesting, but maybe too much.  Obsidian could also benefit from the 0 AP to cross idea.  But how to justify this in terms of game themes?  It seems kind of silly, although mechanically it works pretty well.

6. As each age progresses, on medium difficulty and up only, the AP of all your human units could go up quite a bit.  Doubled in the second age, tripled in the third age?  Perhaps their AP costs for attacks should also scale by that same amount, to keep things from getting crazy.  Of course, then things that reduce the AP costs of attacks to 1 get even more insane.  So this causes some balance problems pretty fast.  This one would be easy to thematically justify, though.


Probably my favorite idea is #5, if this is even a problem at all.  Although the portals thing would be the best idea if it's a matter of you WANTING less distance between towns but not being able to do that.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2013, 10:55:17 am »
Ah?  Whered this one come from?


Havent had any issues with it myself.   Typically it's as you say, generally have outer towns producing units and marching them in.... and of course near the end game you have more token-related options, so that can make up for response time with human units.


And of course it's possible that the player DOES still have a town or two closer to the center.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2013, 10:58:10 am »
I haven't had a huge time to playtest yet, but this isn't something that have been a problem to me.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Mick

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 11:09:57 am »
I'm more concerned that my town layouts tend to look the same. A long line of parallel towns.

Offline Greywolf22

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 12:02:36 pm »
I also haven't had an issue with this.  I guess maybe I'm simply more patient then some players and accept that if I have outlying towns that it may take some time for my troops to march in and attack?

I'm not opposed to changes that will help people overall and keep the pace going, but I haven't really seen this as a particular issue myself.

Offline Pepisolo

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,511
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 01:26:50 pm »
To echo the others' thoughts, I haven't seen any problem with this from my own play or after viewing Let's Play Videos. Probably doesn't need any changing at this stage.

Offline Valeroth

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 01:32:33 pm »
I also don't think this is a problem. 

Offline FallingStar

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 01:47:26 pm »
I mentioned something like this in another thread, so I'll just toss in my thoughts.  I tend to also make parallel lines of towns, which have long travel times from one end to another.  If my endgame is in a near loss state (one side starting to snowball), for me its generally not symetric, but due to a concentration of units or one particularly nasty unit that goes down one end of the line and takes quite a bit of time to get back up to the other.  At which point you can plop a new town at the far end and make em march back.

So I have the issue a bit.  My last couple games I've bumped up woes to hard to go with the rest, and its lessened the effect, since woes that scramble unit clumps (ie units getting resurrected in random spots on the map) or that add enemies in random clumps (elven war) happen more often.

If its not just me, I'd probably go with something like #5, maybe reduced moves through ruins.  Probably not obsidian, or some woes would turn the map into an ice skating rink.

It could also be that a tweak to town placement mechanics, or even stockpiling mechanics might obviate the cases where I've noticed the distance/ movement time issue.

Its seeming like its mostly just me and my playstlye, though, at which point there's no reason to change things.

Offline Teal_Blue

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 03:39:26 pm »
I would really prefer to just leave this one alone. There is no problem here and no need to fix anything.

-Teal

p.s.  Actually, you know, having a longer distance and having to go around other stuff, might be more interesting and different, leading to difficulties with troops attacking, or defending, or even just simply trying to get somewhere. What if a place is cut off? Now that is cool!!  :)

« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 03:54:57 pm by Teal_Blue »

Offline Winge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 03:58:43 pm »
So, one of the unexpected-but-not-really effects of the whole scorched-earth thing with towns is that late in the game it takes a bloody long time for military guys to get from one town to the next.  All this dead space in the middle of the board.  So, a few thoughts on that worth considering:

1. Is this even a problem?  Presuming that you are producing guys at a fixed rate at all of your towns, they will arrive at the enemy at a steady pace no matter what.  The only thing that changes is the reactiveness of changes you make to production; rather than a change you make affecting the mix of units at the enemy town in a turn or two, it's in four or five turns.  That's actually pretty cool.  If anyone has played the game Killer Bunnies, that sort of "make a decision, then have a delayed effect from it" mechanic is pretty interesting.  And it certainly makes the late game distinct from the early game.

I might not be the one to ask, but I'll put it out there:  on average, I use Midgar's serpent Twice in one game, and my town lines build back more than out--my map looks more like a box than a thin rectangle.  I don't really have a problem with distance between towns, although sometimes I have to rebuild the paths in between them ;)

That said, I totally want an expansion with futuristic tiles, armies, and, of course, portals.  I vote Sharks with Lasers as the first mythological unit!
My other bonus ship is a TARDIS.

Offline lyntarbsvid

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2013, 04:44:01 pm »
The player can mitigate this problem by rebuilding the scorched center, instead of just expanding ever further outwards. Then again, like others have said, this really doesn't feel like problem at all.

Also, from my experience at least on higher difficulties there seems to be very few problems getting your troops killed even in the late game, there's always some bandit or enemy mythological nearby or nasty woe incoming.

Offline nas1m

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,268
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2013, 02:12:44 am »
Not really a problem for me as well at the moment.
Craving some more color and variety in your next Bionic run? Grab a boost and a couple of custom floors!

Offline zespri

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,109
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2013, 02:21:38 am »
Haven't come across this problem, but if it is a problem, why don't we do this:

Let ruins "regenerate", make it so that you can build over them again but after a long time (say 40 turns). Will this work?

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2013, 02:40:23 am »
I think you could make portals work if the portals just spawned at each destroyed town center. Then again, I also think that would massively increase chaos and result in a whole lot of behind-the-lines infiltration.

Offline nas1m

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,268
Re: Developers requesting feedback: Late game distances between towns.
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2013, 03:32:04 am »
Haven't come across this problem, but if it is a problem, why don't we do this:

Let ruins "regenerate", make it so that you can build over them again but after a long time (say 40 turns). Will this work?
I like this idea.
Craving some more color and variety in your next Bionic run? Grab a boost and a couple of custom floors!