Post by: x4000 on August 01, 2012, 10:19:17 pm
I've mentioned a couple of places now that I'm working on "another project." Shattered Haven is that project.
This project is already extremely far along, because savvy Arcen lore-fiends will recognize that this is a revival of my old Alden Ridge project under a new name and with a ton of revisions (including 100% new art from the ground up thanks to Heavy Cat studios). It's been a project that has been on hold since 2008, before I even started working on AI War or thought about founding Arcen. I'm extremely excited to be able to finally come back to it and to finish it with all that we at Arcen have learned since I was last working on it.
For now that's all I'll say about it, but now I can at least refer to it by name. We should have many more details for you within about a month, and we're currently hoping to have it to the preorder/beta phase by mid September.
Now you know what I'm working on, at any rate!
Post by: Walter Sullivan on August 01, 2012, 10:31:02 pm
"A top-down project that Arcen peg as “A game of survival”, it’ll see you completing objectives in areas filled with ravenous zombies that are immune to conventional weaponry, meaning it’s up to you to dispatch them using all the random bits and pieces in the environment."
I don't know if the idea of the game is still the same, but if it's anything along this lines, I'm sure I'm gonna love it :D
Post by: Volatar on August 01, 2012, 10:34:14 pm
Post by: Hearteater on August 01, 2012, 10:46:58 pm
Post by: tigersfan on August 01, 2012, 10:49:48 pm
Very excited, although I kinda liked calling it "The Project That Shall Not Be Named"
Well, we're a fan of acronyms around here, and SH is a lot faster to type than TPTSNBN, so we changed it. :)
Post by: Martyn van Buren on August 01, 2012, 10:56:38 pm
Post by: rallythelegions on August 01, 2012, 11:03:40 pm
but stories are cool, too.
I'm hoping this will be available for Mac?
Post by: x4000 on August 01, 2012, 11:05:13 pm
And yep, you got it right, Walter Sullivan -- I'd forgotten that RPS did that article. Co-Optimus did one on the game, too. Mechanically the game is pretty much the same as that one was, except streamlined in the controls in particular and with a bunch of other new content put in there. There were also a number of concepts that I'd been trying to merge together that weren't doing well together, and in 2008 I didn't yet know how to resolve those conflicts. I figured it out finally, last year, and just haven't been able to spare any time to get back to it. Now I can!
Volatar, in terms of DayZ that's really the opposite of the direction I'm headed. ;) There's nothing emergent or procedural about this game, although it does have some very excellent pathfinding. The "zombies" in the lore of this game aren't traditional zombies, but are actually somewhat different. They're called "Grays," and have a mythology all of their own. For instance, they can't be killed by most conventional weapons, which is part of why you have to use other stuff in the environment to kill them. Grenades still do work, though, since fire is one of the thing Grays are weak to.
Overall this is a game that would get an E10 rating, same as AVWW. There are some dark themes in the writing, but not in the fashion that most zombie games do it. There are so many zombie games out there that I always wanted this to have its own unique flavor. It's originally based on a novel I was writing, so all the ideas on the mythology and how the Grays work come from there.
For instance, when someone dies they become a New Gray and temporarily have extra strength, speed, or similar. And people don't turn into Grays by being eaten -- the Grays have no interest in your brains whatsoever. They just want to smash your face in in general. And the big problem is that everyone who dies -- in any way -- turns into a Gray. So you don't have to have a breach of your walls by Grays in order to have a zombie running around in your town, for instance -- someone just has to commit suicide and then they're on top of you as a New Gray. Yikes.
There are various other kinds of Grays that you'll run into that have various behaviors and traits. And then there's also quite a number of other monsters of various sorts. Some are nightmare monsters or spirits of various sorts, while others are animals or plants that have turned evil in a similar way to what happened with the Grays. All of this sounds grim and serious, but remember that this is a pixelart game. Visually, it's kind of a cross between Zelda 1, Lode Runner: The Legend Returns, and maybe something like FF6 in terms of color balance.
And now I've gone and said a whole lot about it. ;)
Anyway, yes, this will have a linear story with cutscenes and hidden levels and other secrets and so on. Every part of this game is hand-designed, in the exact opposite manner of AVWW. AVWW is our procedural game, whereas this is our hand-designed one. It also has a level editor which lets you create your own entire adventures complete with levels, cutscenes, and so forth. It's the exact tools we're using to create the main two adventures of the game.
Oh, and it's going to be local co-op only, since I'm apparently revealing details after all. Up to two players on the same keyboard, or with two gamepads. For anyone who scoffs at two people on one keyboard, they should remember their history -- I, for one, grew up playing games that way. Anyway, gamepads are prevalent enough anyhow, and are fully supported. Online co-op would really push this project out of scope for now, and I don't think it would control all that well, anyhow. Our next game after this one, the new TPTSNBN, should have online co-op. ;)
EDIT: Yep, will be available for OSX, like all our other games. :)
Post by: Volatar on August 01, 2012, 11:14:04 pm
Volatar, in terms of DayZ that's really the opposite of the direction I'm headed. ;) There's nothing emergent or procedural about this game, although it does have some very excellent pathfinding. The "zombies" in the lore of this game aren't traditional zombies, but are actually somewhat different. They're called "Grays," and have a mythology all of their own. For instance, they can't be killed by most conventional weapons, which is part of why you have to use other stuff in the environment to kill them. Grenades still do work, though, since fire is one of the thing Grays are weak to.
Awesome! That makes me happy to hear. You aren't one to jump on bandwagons, and I like that. I realized after playing DayZ, that while it makes for great stories to read online, playing the actual game is far too boring.
Post by: Coppermantis on August 01, 2012, 11:19:09 pm
Post by: x4000 on August 01, 2012, 11:22:34 pm
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on August 01, 2012, 11:26:09 pm
Post by: Cyborg on August 01, 2012, 11:27:39 pm
Nothing to be excited about yet… I don't see any information!
Post by: Oralordos on August 01, 2012, 11:29:20 pm
I think the simple fact that this game will be made by Arcen is good enough for me to get it. After all, I got Tidalis even though I don't like casual games like that just because it's Arcen. The music was worth the money.
Post by: tigersfan on August 01, 2012, 11:33:32 pm
So is this going to be a rougelike (ish) game?
Nope. Not really. All the levels are going to be hand-crafted.
Post by: x4000 on August 01, 2012, 11:34:01 pm
So is this going to be a rougelike (ish) game?
I don't really think that's an appropriate way to describe this game, but it depends on what exactly you mean by that I guess.
Facts not in favor of this being a roguelike:
- It's not procedural in any way.
- There's no permadeath in any way, and in fact the save system is automatic and really forgiving.
- It's realtime rather than turn-based, although I know that some rougelikes are that way also (100 Rogues was fun).
Facts that do make it seem kind of like a roguelike:
- Visually it looks kind of like a roguelike.
- You do have to use your brain to overcome tricky obstacles like in a roguelike... but these are hand-designed rather than procedural. Think Lode Runner: The Legend Returns more than roguelike.
- It is possible to get killed pretty fast if you make a few mistakes, although there is not insta-death. But since this has difficulty settings that varies by difficulty.
Other random tidbits sort of related:
- Each level is a self-contained thing with its own inventory that you have to collect and play with directly.
- There's an "overworld" that visually looks much the same as the levels, but connects them all together. You get no weapons/traps/etc out here, and instead have to flee and avoid various powerful monsters.
- Each level has a set of bonus conditions that you can complete in order to get a "gold" on that level. This is much harder than just beating the level, and often requires extra thinking.
- If I had to describe this as briefly as possible to someone who knows retro games, I'd describe it most succinctly as "like the love-child of Zelda 1 and Lode Runner:TLR, with a little bit of Secret of Mana thrown in there." Mechanically speaking, anyhow. Thematically speaking, it's like none of those.
Post by: tigersfan on August 01, 2012, 11:37:28 pm
So is this the reason why nothing has appeared on the change list for AI War today?
I think the main reason for this is that the work done on AI:War today was directly related to the expansion, and the change list is only for stuff that is changed in the released version of the game. I can assure you work was done on AI: War today. I can do this because I did some of said work. :)
Shattered Haven is something we've been working on a bit internally for a couple weeks now, today is just the first day we're really talking about it publicly.
Post by: x4000 on August 01, 2012, 11:39:29 pm
So is this the reason why nothing has appeared on the change list for AI War today?
Nope! Keith isn't working on this project at all until the new AI War expansion is complete. It's been all quiet on the AI War front today because Keith has been working on the AI War expansion and those don't get release notes yet. :)
I've been working on all manner of things lately, trying to clear my decks so that I can focus more fully on Shattered Haven. I'm finally done with all my art work for the new AI War expansion, so that's down to just my AVWW work for this week (which I'm nearly done with), and then various stuff with the AVWW Art Rework project, and then Shattered Haven.
Josh and Erik, meanwhile, have been all over the place, too. Josh is doing the far zoom icons for the new AI War expansion at the moment, and he also did his first Shattered Haven level today, as well as all his usual duties. It's going to be a busy time around here for a few months!
EDIT: Ninja'd!
Post by: KingIsaacLinksr on August 01, 2012, 11:40:35 pm
Sounds like a fun game, but for me you've always made fun games so dunno why you would stop now. :D
Post by: x4000 on August 01, 2012, 11:42:44 pm
Now I'm off for some sleep!
Post by: madcow on August 01, 2012, 11:54:14 pm
Post by: x4000 on August 01, 2012, 11:59:10 pm
The combat is mostly indirect -- traps and such. The few times you get something to attack directly with, it is actiony like in Zelda 1. But more often you flee and use your wits to set traps. :)
Post by: madcow on August 02, 2012, 12:00:29 am
Post by: Misery on August 02, 2012, 12:50:02 am
Dunno what to think of this one, really. On one hand, the mechanics sound interesting. Very interesting, actually. On the other hand, it sounds like much lower replay value than AVWW (I tend to stick to procedural stuff half the time due to very high replay value), and things like story and cutscenes lose my attention almost instantly.
Granted, level editor for replay value, but..... that only seems to really work that way if there's a large enough output of player-made stuffs, and even then, it's usually a monstrous pain to sift through badly made ones in search of the decent ones. Kinda makes me think of Knytt Stories in that respect; I love the game, but nearly never play it, as the levels that came with it were short as heck (and there's zero point in doing them more than once), and the vast majority of user-made levels are utterly horrible (or they're those "extreme platformer" types that I never liked). I'm not one for patience, with searching for good content. Well, I'm not one for patience period, really. I do like making stuff like that though, so that's something for me to consider.
For the time being, I probably wont pay too much attention to this one. I'll stick with AVWW, and jump on AI War if I can ever think up a good way to control it (and if I happen to be not too lazy to DO it at the time, hah).
Still, I'll have a closer look at this one when it's possible to do so. Are you guys gonna be doing some sort of beta or something with this?
EDIT: Actually, I might end up following this a bit closer after all, after pondering it a bit further. Those game mechanics sound absolutely fascinating, and I usually enjoy doing level design of my own, and if the mechanics shape up the way I'm thinking they might based on your description, that aspect could get..... interesting.
Well. Despite my usual negativity, I guess I end up convinced after all. Bloody amazing, really.
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 02, 2012, 02:33:11 am
Post by: Armanant on August 02, 2012, 03:29:35 am
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 06:37:06 am
I understand your concerns here. Our plan is to have a bunch (by that I mean not 1000s, but a lot) of levels on launch. Additionally, it's pretty likely that we'll be hand-picking the better levels and adding them to the game ourselves, so that folks won't have to do quite so much searching for them.
Dunno what to think of this one, really. On one hand, the mechanics sound interesting. Very interesting, actually. On the other hand, it sounds like much lower replay value than AVWW (I tend to stick to procedural stuff half the time due to very high replay value), and things like story and cutscenes lose my attention almost instantly.
Granted, level editor for replay value, but..... that only seems to really work that way if there's a large enough output of player-made stuffs, and even then, it's usually a monstrous pain to sift through badly made ones in search of the decent ones. Kinda makes me think of Knytt Stories in that respect; I love the game, but nearly never play it, as the levels that came with it were short as heck (and there's zero point in doing them more than once), and the vast majority of user-made levels are utterly horrible (or they're those "extreme platformer" types that I never liked). I'm not one for patience, with searching for good content. Well, I'm not one for patience period, really. I do like making stuff like that though, so that's something for me to consider.
Post by: zebramatt on August 02, 2012, 07:12:50 am
I'm expecting good things, to say the least.
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 07:24:38 am
Also, if I understand the intended dynamics of the game, it sounds like there's plenty of scope for multiple possible ways of completing tasks within levels. (And if it so happens that you can combine the use of your traps and items in the world in interesting emergent ways then it might even be fun just to muck about [see Gunpoint].) And if there are interesting achievements, unlockables and/or a high score to be had, replayability goes through the roof for me!
I'm expecting good things, to say the least.
I'm not sure that Gunpoint is the best example. I don't think it will be quite that emergent. That said, there are certainly many levels that are already in the game that have more than one solution, and some levels that have different tasks that you can complete in the level that are optional, and give you a higher score if you complete them.
Post by: zebramatt on August 02, 2012, 08:19:18 am
The aside was, of course, about when you transcend flexibility and delve into the realms of (structured) sandboxing, when things go from having decent replayability to being absolute time-sinks. (And Gunpoint just happens to be the most recent example to which I've been exposed.)
Post by: x4000 on August 02, 2012, 08:44:24 am
The levels are most directly inspired by Lode Runner:TLR (awesome game from the early 90s which is now freeware, by the way, if you've not played it) in terms of how they are basically flexible puzzles. However, Lode Runner: TLR puzzles tended to be pretty one-note in solo play in particular, really only opening up when you had two players playing at once (on one keyboard, ahem). Because SH is top-down rather than side-view, that lets us make better use of the space than a game like Lode Runner (or indeed AVWW) can.
It's just too different dynamics, and when you're talking about a single screen at a time (no panning) then having that screen real estate matters. The individual screens in SH have more tiles than Bomberman or Zelda 1, so each level can be more intricate. Like Zelda dungeons, a given level can also span more than one screen; but those are more the minority rather than the majority outside the overworld, because the multi-screen levels both take us a lot longer to design as well as are a lot more advanced-feeling to play.
Anyway, even Lode Runner is a pretty bad analogy when you get right down to it. This game is much more action-oriented than that in terms of how you execute your plans, but also more planning-oriented in how you set up your plans. Each level starts out with you invincible like happens in AVWW (or Zelda 1), and then you get to look around as long as you want, then make a run for it. The roofs on buildings, or darkness or hidden tools/traps in destructible objects, usually makes it so that you can't plan out everything if you haven't tried the level ever before, though. There is a pause function that lets you still see everything that's going on on the screen, and in fact it shows little denotations for what kind of Grays each on-screen Gray is.
Depending on how a level has been designed (and the 80+ levels we already have in place really vary in this, a trend I expect to see continue), the level of linearity can really vary. Some levels really do just have one intricate sequence of events that you have to go through, but how you deal with the monsters along the way determines if you meet the bonus objectives or not. A few levels are very open-ended and can be tackled in numerous ways, mostly involving more skill than tactics. Most levels are more in the middle, requiring a mix of skill and tactics, and allowing for some flexibility in order of operations that can make a great difference in the overall outcome.
At core, this is kind of a puzzle game in the same sense that AI War or Zelda 1 are puzzle games: there's all this realtime action-y stuff in all three games, and longer-term goals that you're trying to accomplish (self-set in AI War, set by the adventure storyline in Zelda and SH), and then there's these individual spaces that you come across that have environmental puzzles for you to unravel (procedurally assigned planets in AI War, dungeons or specific screens in Zelda, levels in SH).
It's a bit hard to compare it to other games, because honestly I don't know of anything else that does things like this. But I did start from the premise of wanting to make a Lode Runner type of game from the top-down rather than the traditional side view, and the rest of the game grew from there (in the same sense that I wanted to make something kind of like Supreme Commander in space when I made AI War). As with AI War (and indeed, before AI War even existed), SH grew like crazy compared to its original concept and took on much more unique overtones.
Post by: Misery on August 02, 2012, 09:13:22 am
So, trying to get a grasp of what you're saying here.... if I'm understanding correctly, the game has a certain similar feel/whatever to Lode Runner (without having very similar mechanics). That game had puzzle-y stuff, but also had the constant enemies chasing you, yet the player was never really able to directly attack them; you had to be good about getting them stuck in holes (and often had to be careful about WHERE you had them get stuck), while at the same time navigating the level and getting the gold. So it took some planning and thought instead of just jabbing everything with a sword, but still required some degree of actual skill.
Which, to me, is more interesting. Essentially using the level structure & objects to keep the baddies in check, while going after your goal. Is that the same sort of idea you're going with here? Though I'm guessing with at least the difference that the enemies in this one can be killed, whereas the baddies in Lode Runner were immortal, you could delay them, but they WOULD always come back.
If that's the case, then I can see where the appeal of this one is going to lie.
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 09:15:22 am
If you're gonna get inspiration from somewhere, Lode Runner (any of them) is a pretty darn good one to choose.
So, trying to get a grasp of what you're saying here.... if I'm understanding correctly, the game has a certain similar feel/whatever to Lode Runner (without having very similar mechanics). That game had puzzle-y stuff, but also had the constant enemies chasing you, yet the player was never really able to directly attack them; you had to be good about getting them stuck in holes (and often had to be careful about WHERE you had them get stuck), while at the same time navigating the level and getting the gold. So it took some planning and thought instead of just jabbing everything with a sword, but still required some degree of actual skill.
Which, to me, is more interesting. Essentially using the level structure & objects to keep the baddies in check, while going after your goal. Is that the same sort of idea you're going with here? Though I'm guessing with at least the difference that the enemies in this one can be killed, whereas the baddies in Lode Runner were immortal, you could delay them, but they WOULD always come back.
If that's the case, then I can see where the appeal of this one is going to lie.
This is pretty close actually, but with one major change. In SH, killing the enemies IS the goal, and the gold is the bonus.
Post by: x4000 on August 02, 2012, 09:20:50 am
One other big difference is that in Lode Runner you can use the base terrain to trap or kill the enemies that are constantly chasing you. In SH, you can't do that (you have no default actions when you're not holding an item, other than moving around or interacting with things like switches). So early in each level you can do nothing but run around and pick up items while avoiding enemies. Sometimes they are actively pursuing you in a Lode Runner fashion, other times they have various behaviors; there are about two dozen enemy types that all act differently. Versus it all being the mad monks in lode runner.
That makes each level into a mix of acquisition and avoidance and attacking. Once you kill an enemy in a level in SH, it's gone for good until you restart the level (unlike LR, where the mad monks respawn immediately). As Josh noted, killing the enemies without getting killed yourself is the puzzle here -- the "gold" equivalent items are all for bonuses and score and getting a gold completion marker on the level.
Post by: Misery on August 02, 2012, 09:37:44 am
What about stuff like level sharing and such? Like, you know, being able to upload to and download from some.... er.... place, from within the game, rather than having to scour boards or something to find new ones (which is often annoying as heck, as with games like Knytt Stories). The gameplay formula is sounding like it's gonna really cater towards that kind of thing, making levels with the editor, just like Lode Runner always has.
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 09:46:16 am
As for the question about being able to share from within the game, that's not in there now. I'll let Chris answer whether or not that's feasible for 1.0.
Post by: x4000 on August 02, 2012, 09:48:12 am
In terms of having a central place to share levels from... maybe, but probably not at 1.0 of the game, and possibly not at all.
What we instead intend to do is take the AVWW approach: letting players post their stuff either to the forums or to mantis, and then we (mostly Josh) curates those things and we integrate them into the game and distribute them to all players. With that sort of process we can request revisions from the players if there is something amiss that they didn't notice, and they can either choose to ignore that (and thus have it just through the forums that it is distributed, which is fine), or they can choose to make slight tweaks to bring it up to the final quality we'd want to have in the game (or if they are willing, we can make the tweaks, but often people don't want someone else messing with their levels).
That way everyone gets the new content just by upgrading their version of the game, and they know that it's gone through the normal Arcen QA process that any level we'd created directly would have gone through. That gives a lot of high-quality content directly, rather than having you have to sort through a massive pile of lower-quality content in something like what Little Big Planet did. Given that this game supports the creation of whole adventures in addition to standalone levels, that's also something that we may see some of (depends on how into this people get).
Having the process be curated does create some extra load for us, but I think that it results in a higher quality experience for players.
Post by: Aklyon on August 02, 2012, 09:52:34 am
Sounds interesting anyway, though.
Post by: madcow on August 02, 2012, 10:11:42 am
Edit: Just read some of the above posts, a combination of steamware with a "dev's choice" option could work.
Post by: yllamana on August 02, 2012, 10:15:27 am
A sort of puzzly anti-zombie thing sounds very entertaining and enjoyable.
Post by: zebramatt on August 02, 2012, 10:37:53 am
I'd say curation, especially at the frequency Arcen would probably do it, is amazing. Definite win, there.
But I also know that if it picks up much of a dedicated community then a forum for player-created content is a must, and an online database just makes the whole thing hang together in a much more friendly fashion.
Post by: Wingflier on August 02, 2012, 11:04:10 am
I hope your new "The Game that Shall Not Be Named" is the Final Fantasy Tactics-type game. Seriously in the 10+ years since then, nobody has made a game even on par with it. Arcen could reinvent that entire genre.
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 11:07:50 am
Sounds exciting, I can't wait!
I hope your new "The Game that Shall Not Be Named" is the Final Fantasy Tactics-type game. Seriously in the 10+ years since then, nobody has made a game even on par with it. Arcen could reinvent that entire genre.
That game is so early in the process that it's completely pointless to talk about, TBH. :)
Post by: Tankor Smash on August 02, 2012, 11:23:16 am
Post by: LayZboy on August 02, 2012, 01:54:01 pm
for instance -- someone just has to commit suicide and then they're on top of you as a New Gray. Yikes.
Sounds like it'd get really annoying really fast :/
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 01:56:40 pm
for instance -- someone just has to commit suicide and then they're on top of you as a New Gray. Yikes.
Sounds like it'd get really annoying really fast :/
Bear in mind, that refers to the lore of the game. I'm not aware of any game mechanic that involves turning into a gray at all. If you die in a level, you just start it over.
Post by: Volatar on August 02, 2012, 02:39:21 pm
for instance -- someone just has to commit suicide and then they're on top of you as a New Gray. Yikes.
Sounds like it'd get really annoying really fast :/
I smell hilarious coop shenanigans.
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 02, 2012, 03:10:38 pm
I wonder what kinds of traps we'll be able to play with... =D
Post by: BenMiff on August 02, 2012, 03:48:15 pm
It also has a level editor which lets you create your own entire adventures complete with levels, cutscenes, and so forth. It's the exact tools we're using to create the main two adventures of the game....yeeeah, I can see myself spending time with that if the game "hooks" me in. How extensive is the level editor likely to be is the bit I'm curious about currently, predominantly whether or not it will allow the creation of new Grays / objects / whatever or whether it will be limited to existing resources...
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 04:00:21 pm
It also has a level editor which lets you create your own entire adventures complete with levels, cutscenes, and so forth. It's the exact tools we're using to create the main two adventures of the game....yeeeah, I can see myself spending time with that if the game "hooks" me in. How extensive is the level editor likely to be is the bit I'm curious about currently, predominantly whether or not it will allow the creation of new Grays / objects / whatever or whether it will be limited to existing resources...
It's limited to existing resources, a big reason why is because there'd need to be new art for each new resource.
Post by: Volatar on August 02, 2012, 04:38:45 pm
It also has a level editor which lets you create your own entire adventures complete with levels, cutscenes, and so forth. It's the exact tools we're using to create the main two adventures of the game....yeeeah, I can see myself spending time with that if the game "hooks" me in. How extensive is the level editor likely to be is the bit I'm curious about currently, predominantly whether or not it will allow the creation of new Grays / objects / whatever or whether it will be limited to existing resources...
It's limited to existing resources, a big reason why is because there'd need to be new art for each new resource.
The Community™ is very good at making new graphics assets if you allow people to add them/package them with a map.
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 04:45:13 pm
It also has a level editor which lets you create your own entire adventures complete with levels, cutscenes, and so forth. It's the exact tools we're using to create the main two adventures of the game....yeeeah, I can see myself spending time with that if the game "hooks" me in. How extensive is the level editor likely to be is the bit I'm curious about currently, predominantly whether or not it will allow the creation of new Grays / objects / whatever or whether it will be limited to existing resources...
It's limited to existing resources, a big reason why is because there'd need to be new art for each new resource.
The Community™ is very good at making new graphics assets if you allow people to add them/package them with a map.
While I don't disagree, personally, I'm not sure this would be a good idea here. The reason being that when you have art from multiple sources the art can lack cohesion. Which is one of the gripes that folks had with A Valley Without Wind. This time, the art is all coming from the same studio, and I believe we have a contract with them so that if/when we want more later, we can go back to them and get it, so we can keep some cohesion.
That said, long term, who knows what will happen. Things can change, and, if our record is any indication, things will change post-release with this game too.
Post by: Coppermantis on August 02, 2012, 05:01:35 pm
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 05:06:52 pm
When you say "traps", it Orcs Must Die style traps that are actual traps you place or like the traps in games such as Half-Life 2 that are usually pre-existing environmental hazards that you can take advantage of?
Mostly the former, but some of the later as well.
Post by: Cyborg on August 02, 2012, 09:36:15 pm
It also has a level editor which lets you create your own entire adventures complete with levels, cutscenes, and so forth. It's the exact tools we're using to create the main two adventures of the game....yeeeah, I can see myself spending time with that if the game "hooks" me in. How extensive is the level editor likely to be is the bit I'm curious about currently, predominantly whether or not it will allow the creation of new Grays / objects / whatever or whether it will be limited to existing resources...
It's limited to existing resources, a big reason why is because there'd need to be new art for each new resource.
The Community™ is very good at making new graphics assets if you allow people to add them/package them with a map.
While I don't disagree, personally, I'm not sure this would be a good idea here. The reason being that when you have art from multiple sources the art can lack cohesion. Which is one of the gripes that folks had with A Valley Without Wind. This time, the art is all coming from the same studio, and I believe we have a contract with them so that if/when we want more later, we can go back to them and get it, so we can keep some cohesion.
That said, long term, who knows what will happen. Things can change, and, if our record is any indication, things will change post-release with this game too.
I think they're talking about modding; being able to add your own art with the level editor.
Post by: yllamana on August 02, 2012, 09:54:37 pm
Post by: tigersfan on August 02, 2012, 10:30:49 pm
Weird question: does the coop take place on the same levels as the single player?
Yes. Basically when you design the level, you can add in additional enemies and/or additional weapons/tools that only appear when there are two players.
Post by: Teal_Blue on August 02, 2012, 11:13:05 pm
And just my two cents, but i think your 3-4 (or even 5-6) month develop time per game is probably much better both time and expense wise, and as you said, lots of projects mean more of a chance of balancing out any financial hiccups in one project or another. :) Good to hear all the good news and looking forward to all the new stuff.
:) I am very happy!
-Teal
Post by: Fiskbit on August 03, 2012, 01:07:17 am
Okay, on hearing more about it, I'm definitely behind the idea. Gotta have my time to think. Tidalis just killed me in that way. Any puzzle that I ever had time pressure to make lots of combos or points in, I just lost. I could not get a grasp on that.Well, the other half of Tidalis (brainteasers) had no time constraints and usually no reflex requirements; you'd set it up at your own pace and, if you did it right, watch it clear. Unfortunately, though, I don't think we did a very good job of advertising the brainteasers as a completely different mode of play and an alternative to the action of the adventure mode, so I doubt a lot of players ever found them.
I wonder what kinds of traps we'll be able to play with... =D
As for Shattered Haven, I enjoyed playing this one a lot back in the day when it was Alden Ridge and am incredibly excited about this revival. I also really appreciate intelligently-crafted levels; I believe a clever designer can do a lot that procedural generation just can't. I'm expecting very good things. :)
Post by: Ragnarok on August 04, 2012, 08:10:13 pm
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 04, 2012, 08:31:24 pm
If the levels are handcrafted, there will be no replay value like in AI War ?
I can see why you'd worry about that. However, hopefully the level editor will make up for a lack of procedural generation... I don't really see how tactical trap-based combat can be procedurally generated and also be sensible. There are also those gold medals to go for, and multiplayer to play with your friends. There also might be more to it that just isn't done yet. It's too soon to tell.
Post by: Hearteater on August 04, 2012, 08:45:08 pm
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 04, 2012, 09:43:09 pm
Post by: tigersfan on August 04, 2012, 10:56:00 pm
Yea, handcrafted does mean finite replay value, whereas AIW's is arguably getting into the functionally-infinite (in that you can get tired of it but not probably not because you ran out of genuinely new scenarios), but it doesn't mean a low replay value. There's also the angle of community content and (possibly, not sure where Chris is on this) ongoing stuff from us depending on how well it does financially, etc.
Yes, while there will be finite replay value, we hope to have enough levels in there to still make it a fun experience worth what you paid for it. There are already close to 100 levels in it right now, and we'll be adding more as development continues, in fact, I'm working on another right now.
As for community content, there's definitely room for that on this one. The level editor is actually really good, quite polished right now. We plan to add good levels from the community into the game similar to how we add rooms to AVWW now.
LaughingThesaurus is right, there's not really a way to have procedurally generated levels that make sense and are also good/interesting, so they have to be hand-crafted, but, IMO, a hand-crafted level that is done right can have a certain amount of character that a computer just can't generate.
Post by: Wingflier on August 05, 2012, 12:36:40 am
Post by: tigersfan on August 05, 2012, 07:13:53 am
Didn't he say you could create your own levels?
Absolutely!
Post by: yllamana on August 05, 2012, 07:53:31 am
P.S. Hi Fiskbit!!
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 06, 2012, 12:40:32 pm
Post by: tigersfan on August 06, 2012, 12:49:14 pm
Sorry if it's been asked, but will this have a story, (actual) characters, (actual) dialog and stuff?
It will have a story. I'm not yet sure how involved it will be, or how integral to the first set of missions it will be, but the game is based off a novel Chris was writing, so there's lots of material for a story.
As far as I know right now, there are plans for only one story for the first adventure then there will be at least one more adventure that will not have a story. Beyond that I think it depends on what kind of support/interest there is in the game and in further stories.
Post by: CoyoteTheClever on August 07, 2012, 10:23:25 pm
It goes without saying I'm going to be buying this :)
Post by: relmz32 on August 08, 2012, 03:05:02 pm
Yea, handcrafted does mean finite replay value, whereas AIW's is arguably getting into the functionally-infinite (in that you can get tired of it but not probably not because you ran out of genuinely new scenarios), but it doesn't mean a low replay value. There's also the angle of community content and (possibly, not sure where Chris is on this) ongoing stuff from us depending on how well it does financially, etc.There are plenty of games that provide great gameplay and replay-ability even within a limit of levels and bosses. I wasn't around for this the first time, i don't think, but this sounds really cool.
Also, the book is intriguing to me. I'd want to see that. Or a game version of it.
Post by: tigersfan on August 10, 2012, 07:24:07 am
As for the book, I believe that it remains unfinished as a novel.
Post by: Tobias on August 13, 2012, 04:52:18 pm
Ehhhhh... uhhh.... having trouble adequately expressing my lack of enthusiasm for this concept, but maybe you'll surprise me. The fact that this is going to take dev time away from AVWW worries me greatly.
Post by: x4000 on August 13, 2012, 04:58:40 pm
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 13, 2012, 05:57:16 pm
Post by: Tobias on August 13, 2012, 05:58:46 pm
(http://www.realalienpictures.net/grey_alien-2.jpg)
Post by: Ixiohm on August 13, 2012, 06:13:25 pm
Post by: Ozymandiaz on August 22, 2012, 09:27:52 am
So is this the reason why nothing has appeared on the change list for AI War today?
I think the simple fact that this game will be made by Arcen is good enough for me to get it. After all, I got Tidalis even though I don't like casual games like that just because it's Arcen. The music was worth the money.
Heh, indeed. But so far all Arcen games are quite excellent. Not many publishers puts the same kind of love into their games as Arcen. For the 2.5 years I have been part of the community (albeit somewhat less these last months due to work and other RL stuff), I have seen good things :)
Looking forward to this game as well!
Post by: RCIX on August 22, 2012, 05:02:49 pm
Post by: x4000 on August 22, 2012, 05:04:57 pm
So X is off in his code cave working on this? :P
Bingo. Boy oh boy, porting this to the new engine has been quite a bit of work over the last two weeks, but that's finally winding down. Then it's code cave + level design cave. :D
Post by: Teal_Blue on August 23, 2012, 07:54:52 am
And perhaps you are not ready, and it may be best to wait, but i am dying to see some screenshots of the new game. :)
-Teal
Post by: tigersfan on August 23, 2012, 08:03:27 am
Just a quick question, but what does the new engine bring that the old engine did not?
And perhaps you are not ready, and it may be best to wait, but i am dying to see some screenshots of the new game. :)
-Teal
New engine brings, among other things, the ability to have a Mac version easily, as well as internal consistency with all our other games.
As for screenshots, definitely not ready. While we have art that is good enough for internal testing, most of the "good" art isn't done yet.
Post by: Teal_Blue on August 23, 2012, 09:03:58 am
thanks for the quick reply.
-teal
Post by: x4000 on August 23, 2012, 09:12:59 am
Post by: Teal_Blue on August 23, 2012, 10:47:53 am
Perhaps its a bit early for all of this, but just wanted to ask, am very excited by all the news for the new game. :)
Thanks a bunch and these are just quetions, not demands or anything like that, just trying to see how you see the game developing.
Thank you again and take care,
-Teal
Post by: Teal_Blue on August 23, 2012, 10:53:11 am
:) Really looking forward to getting into the editor and making some new story-lines of my own, after going through the story of the game first though. As story is going to be the main emphasis here with the hand drawn art, this has got me very very excited! Thanks Arcen!!
-Teal
Post by: tigersfan on August 23, 2012, 11:03:16 am
:) Quick question if i can? Will we be able to have families? Like husbands, wives and children, or neighbors or npc's that we will take care of as we roam and scavenge and fight off the graymen? Or like Lode Runner, will we be single characters moving from level to level? and Will we be able to customize our character? Perhaps like what we use for weapons, or perhaps those will vary by level and not by character, if that is so, will we be able to customize our character somehow? Or choose from different characters?
I hope I'm not saying too much here, but... the story does involve a family, but each player only controls one character. As this game is more story driven than any other game we've done, there's not a lot (or any, really) customization of characters in the game. Though, there is a little bit of character improvement in the game.
As for weapons, in many cases, the weapons are level based.
Post by: Teal_Blue on August 23, 2012, 11:40:54 am
"hey, we're not that ready yet!" :)
Sorry,
-Teal
Post by: tigersfan on August 23, 2012, 11:42:40 am
Sorry if i ask stuff that puts you all on the spot, i'll try not to do that, and if i ask stuff thats kinda out of bounds, just say,
"hey, we're not that ready yet!" :)
Sorry,
-Teal
Nothing to apologize for. We don't mind the questions. I know how to dodge the ones I don't want to answer yet. :)
Post by: Teal_Blue on August 23, 2012, 11:47:03 am
:) Quick question if i can? Will we be able to have families? Like husbands, wives and children, or neighbors or npc's that we will take care of as we roam and scavenge and fight off the graymen? Or like Lode Runner, will we be single characters moving from level to level? and Will we be able to customize our character? Perhaps like what we use for weapons, or perhaps those will vary by level and not by character, if that is so, will we be able to customize our character somehow? Or choose from different characters?
I hope I'm not saying too much here, but... the story does involve a family, but each player only controls one character. As this game is more story driven than any other game we've done, there's not a lot (or any, really) customization of characters in the game. Though, there is a little bit of character improvement in the game.
As for weapons, in many cases, the weapons are level based.
That sounds very very very very very, very cool! :) I can understand the smaller customization or no customization with the story of the family, that way the dad or mom and the kids or cousins, aunts or uncles, or whoever is in the game is all the same. Am really looking forward to this one alot, AI War and AVWW usually kick me pretty good, i'm just not good at that kind of strategy, but am hoping i can hopefully be good at this one! :)
Anyway, take care and thanks for the explanation, hope i didn't get you in trouble by asking, thanks again, take care,
-Teal
Post by: Oralordos on August 26, 2012, 12:18:18 am
Post by: tigersfan on August 26, 2012, 12:45:58 am
Post by: Oralordos on August 26, 2012, 12:53:30 am
Post by: x4000 on August 26, 2012, 08:48:40 am
Post by: tigersfan on August 26, 2012, 08:46:10 pm
... Then after that it's mostly more levels, more enemies, etc. we already have about 80 enemies and some 20+ enemies, though.
I think you mean about 80 levels? and 20+ enemies? Otherwise, why haven't I seen these other enemies? :)
Post by: Aklyon on August 26, 2012, 08:58:06 pm
Post by: x4000 on August 27, 2012, 07:22:35 am
Post by: Echo35 on October 01, 2012, 11:44:25 pm
Post by: Teal_Blue on October 10, 2012, 12:40:38 am
Anyway, not to take away from the other projects, because although I lose a lot at AI War, I still plan to buy the expansion, I think I have this completionist kind of thing going on, haha. Oh and by the way, when was the last time I ever saw a single dev team juggling 3 projects at once? Like NEVER. :)
Y'all are awesome as we say in the south. :)
Later and hope to hear good news when its a good time.
-T
Post by: x4000 on October 10, 2012, 06:57:31 am
Post by: Panopticon on October 10, 2012, 02:40:25 pm
Post by: keith.lamothe on October 10, 2012, 02:58:58 pm
But we're learning, yea.
Post by: Teal_Blue on October 10, 2012, 06:26:44 pm
:)
Post by: Deekay on October 14, 2012, 01:09:19 pm
the game and are taking the time to realize your vision for the project.
Kudos guys, and the very best of luck with the development. Keep us posted when you have new information! :P
Post by: Silentplanet on October 18, 2012, 11:54:45 am
Post by: brianc on October 23, 2012, 11:14:34 pm