Arcen Games

General Category => Shattered Haven => : x4000 March 04, 2013, 02:41:03 PM

: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: x4000 March 04, 2013, 02:41:03 PM
Hey all,

This might seem like an odd question, but bear with me.

Premise
Shattered Haven includes a level editor, and it's extremely powerful.  It's the same one we're using to make the main game itself, minus no features.  This is great because you can make adventures just as robust as the main adventure is, or you can make just standalone levels for others to play, or whatever.

The Problem
The problem, as Josh pointed out to me shortly after he started playing the earliest pre-alpha that he got his hands on months and months ago, is that this level editor is going to tempt a lot of people (including him) to the dark side.  Having trouble with a level?  Just pop in and remove a bunch of enemies, or if it's a puzzle problem then pop in and examine the level to see what the solution is from the vantage of the level editor.

As Josh basically put it, the fact that this is right there on the main menu and so easy to access is kind of too tempting.  The basic idea out of our discussions was to limit access to editing existing levels in the game until either you'd already beaten the game, or until you'd beaten the level you were about to edit, or whatever.

The Problem That Would Cause
There are inevitably going to be at least a few people who want to create more than they want to play.  For those people, looking at our existing levels and tearing them apart to see how they work is the best way to learn how to make levels of their own.  Aside from being a really deep editor, it's freaking complicated, heh.  No one thing is particularly so, but there are just a lot of things if you're trying to jump straight into the editor.  The only way to really make that sane at all is to look at our existing examples.

If you see where I'm going with that, this basically creates a situation where players who are really interested more in creating than playing have to play in order to create.  I know when I was around 9 years old I got the game Demon Stalkers and I found it to be one of my favorite games ever -- that said, I spent easily 80% of my time creating my own levels with its level editor rather than playing the built-in ones.  That was what made the game so attractive to me, and if I'd had to win the whole game to unlock it all that would have felt really hobbled to me.

I do believe I used the DS editor to alter a couple of levels that I felt were unfairly cheap, but in no way did that dampen my enjoyment of the game.

There's other related things here, like what happens when someone loses their settings file or changes computers and thus it doesn't have a record of what they had unlocked, etc.

My thoughts
Really, my inclination is just to let you click the level editor and then you have the whole thing.  That's easiest for me and you.  However, the question has been raised if there's a need to essentially protect some people from themselves.  I've been warring with myself over that issue, and finally I've concluded that there's not a good way for me to answer the question since it doesn't really apply to me. 

So I ask you, the players: how would you want to gain access to viewing and editing official adventure levels in the level editor?  All at once, with no barriers?  Little by little as you beat levels?  All at the end, after you beat the game once (but not necessarily all the levels)?
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: nas1m March 04, 2013, 03:29:59 PM
I would go for all levels being available in the level editor without any limitations right from the start. If somebody wants to cheat - let 'em cheat. This is better in my opinion than limiting the World builders. This Way everybody can decide which experience they want to have and are responsible for it...
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Mick March 04, 2013, 03:46:10 PM
I think it's fine to let them have everything in the editor. I don't really have an issue with single-player games having cheat codes available, and there are numerous non-cheating reasons they'd want access anyway.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Greywolf22 March 04, 2013, 03:58:10 PM
I agree with the folks above.  If people choose to "cheat", there are numerous ways to do that if they REALLY want to.  Essentially, there will always be people who will look to Youtube, game guides, or whatever in an effort to beat a level that they either find to difficult, or have no interest in completing.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that personally...it's a choice, and I think it's always good to have a choice when it comes to how you play.

I find most die-hard game players will resist any cheats to get the satisfaction of beating the game, and some like to tinker and find work arounds to complete a level (even if it means re-desiging said level to get around it).

In the end, I think leaving the level editor on the front screen isn't a bad thing at all...in fact there might be those who are most interested in design and want to dive right in...and for those of us who want a challenge...all the better.

How about this for a thought (if possible)...is it possible that certain achievements can't be granted if the level is modded?  It won't prevent people, but might serve as an insentive for those completionists out there who care about achievements.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: khadgar March 04, 2013, 04:00:31 PM
I would go for all levels being available in the level editor without any limitations right from the start. If somebody wants to cheat - let 'em cheat. This is better in my opinion than limiting the World builders. This Way everybody can decide which experience they want to have and are responsible for it...

I agree completely. Think of it as just another variable for difficulty. A level-editor serves as a way to un-stuck yourself as well. Maybe I missed how to use iron tacks. Maybe I hate iron tacks. Maybe I'm just really bad at iron tacks. I get to the level that is all about iron tacks, and I hate it. It's a level I can't bypass... so I edit myself in a super squid. Hooray! level complete.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Teal_Blue March 04, 2013, 04:39:44 PM
Like the others above, I believe letting the players make the decision, and live with that decision is better than imposing a limitation for 'our' rules, which they may agree with, or may not. And if not, will we hear grief from them for not letting them make that decision?
I have a game, called Sins of a Solar Empire, a space game of some years ago, and the devs made it accessible to modify the aspects of the game, the ships, the planets, the limits, the weapons and hull strengths... etc.

It probably caused a bit of 'cheating' as it were from players who couldn't beat parts of the game. I myself am rather a noob at games sometimes, actually most times, but still i enjoy them, and the opportunity to rework or 'mod' that game gave me literally months and months of enjoyment, as i created new ships and types of ship, mixed the weapons and hulls around, changed the planets and stars, etc.  :)
Of which i was so proud.  :)  The game felt even more as if it were my own. And for that experience i would have payed the devs twice for that pleasure.

If you have players that buy your game to 'build' things with, that may not be so bad a reason. What if ten years from now, some new dev re-creates a SH clone, because she was so inspired and loved so very much all the fun and enjoyment she got out of modding Shattered Haven?

Just my opinion, but i would suggest leaving the editor available from the start with no pre-reqs on it.  :)

-Teal

: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: zespri March 04, 2013, 10:40:25 PM
I would approach it this way. I would make it possible to say at a glance whether an adventure is "official" (signed, non-modified), or custom (edited, or a new one). Then let the level editor be available with no restrictions. One will be able to "cheat" by looking up how the puzzles are done and also would be able to edit level/adventure and save, but if they do they won't be playing original "official" game, which should be clear from the UI.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Deekay March 04, 2013, 11:59:05 PM
I tend to agree with the folk here. Just let people have at it :P
I don't think that there would be too many people that would take the time to learn how to use the editor just to
get past certain parts of the game, and I think people would really respect and appreciate the freedom of it being completely open.

If anyone wants to learn to use the editor just to cheat their way past a puzzle, then I say let em. Hey it might even encourage
them to go on and make some great original content :)
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: tigersfan March 05, 2013, 09:01:46 AM
Take this scenario as an example: A player gets to a level and has a difficult time. Then, they decide to go look up the solution, and find out how to solve the puzzle. If this happens two or three times over the course of the game, it's probably fine. But, my worry is that some will start to see how much easier that makes the level, and this will ruin their perception of the game.

The truth is that most of these levels aren't that hard. There are a few that can be tricky, but, if you plan ahead, and execute your plan, they can be beaten. Using the level editor to get you through a level too many times can leave players with the impression that the game is either too hard (saying "I had to cheat just to get through most of the levels") because they don't take the time to actually learn it. Or, it could leave the perception that it's too easy, since using the level editor can make every level beatable on the first try.

My first boss in North Carolina (where I live now) was fond of the phrase "Perception is reality." As an example of what he meant, he was getting on me once because some of the boxes on the shelves weren't straight (this was in a retail store). These particular boxes were right near the front door, and his point was that if someone sees that early on, their perception of the store is that it's sloppy and messy. Once someone has this perception, it doesn't matter if those were the only boxes in the entire place that were off, to that person, their perception was how they were going to see the whole store, regardless of what the truth may have actually been.

I worry about a similar thing here. If the game is perceived by some as too hard, or (even worse, IMO) too easy, then, for those players, the game is that way, and there's nothing we can do to change that.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: x4000 March 05, 2013, 09:13:07 AM
Thanks for the counterpoints, Josh -- I think those are really valid and (as with most things in life), there are two sides to this.  Nothing is ever obvious-do or obvious-don't in a global sense that there are no consequences at all.

As a clarification on the "levels are not too hard" statement: they aren't hard once you figure out the trick.  That's true of most puzzle games, and the level editor lets you figure out the trick in a leisurely fashion. 

Though, all of this is still true if someone uses a strategy guide.  If you read a strategy guide in advance of each level for World of Goo, it's really a very easy game (but still a fun one).  If you don't use a strategy guide it's a lot more fun and interesting, so I think most people either don't use a guide except when they have to, or they're just the sort who wants to use a guide and get on with things, and it doesn't bother them.

Also: getting a gold completion is still hard even after you know the trick of the main-path completion.  And if you're looking to test your reflexes and so forth, moving the difficulty up from Cutthroat to either Murderous or Possibly-Impossible difficulty is something that I don't think anyone in their right mind can call easy.  I designed most of the levels, and know the solutions to them backwards and forwards, and I have extreme trouble on Possibly-Impossible.


All of the above is addressing the reality of the situation, not the perception, of course.  And yes, given the early perception problems we've had in the past with folks, I do worry about how this might affect things this time around.  I'm still leaning strongly toward the consensus up to now, but I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on these drawbacks and what we might do to mitigate them. zespri's approach makes a lot of sense if you're worried about people simply editing levels (which is one worry), but it doesn't really help with the "well, the info is right there and I'll just peek to find the solution rather than finding it out myself" sort of thing. 

Of course... the most difficult levels tend to be incredibly opaque in the editor to someone not already familiar with the editor, since they involve lots of special flags, scripts, and so forth.  Or they involve temporal sequences of events during gameplay itself that you just have to figure out and looking in the editor isn't going to help you.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Mick March 05, 2013, 09:24:21 AM
I just think that if someone wants to use the level editor to figure out how to puzzle, they aren't the type who really cares at all how difficult or easy the game feels, they just want to play through it for the story or whatever.

Honestly, I think they are more likely to try to find a guide or walkthru online than to poke around in the editor for an answer.

From what you describe, figuring out the solution using the editor sounds fun in a different way. There is definitely a type for gamer who enjoys tinkering and figuring out how a game works more than actually playing it. These are potential customers you don't want to alienate.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: x4000 March 05, 2013, 09:25:36 AM
From what you describe, figuring out the solution using the editor sounds fun in a different way. There is definitely a type for gamer who enjoys tinkering and figuring out how a game works more than actually playing it.

You just described me as a kid, to a large extent.  Though I also played loads, I enjoyed the tinkering at least equally much.  So yeah, I get what you're saying.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: nas1m March 05, 2013, 09:30:51 AM
I can only second Mick here. I was about to say something along these exact Lines ; ). I see where you (i.e. Chris and Josh) are coming from but i really don't think this will turn out to be an issue...
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: x4000 March 05, 2013, 09:33:52 AM
One thing I want to clarify is that we're mainly just being paranoid.  Having been burned a number of times by players having unexpected reactions to things we thought were positive, we're second-guessing things.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: madcow March 05, 2013, 11:08:37 AM
Maybe I'm missing something. How would using the editor let you cheat pass the campaign?  Would they be able to replace the actual campaign level with their edited one?

I guess I was thinking that while they could go into a level wih the editor they would only be able to save a copy. Not replace the existing level. Which doesn't really help them cheat, only deconstruct pieces of the level. Or am I missing something?
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: tigersfan March 05, 2013, 11:15:22 AM
Maybe I'm missing something. How would using the editor let you cheat pass the campaign?  Would they be able to replace the actual campaign level with their edited one?

I guess I was thinking that while they could go into a level wih the editor they would only be able to save a copy. Not replace the existing level. Which doesn't really help them cheat, only deconstruct pieces of the level. Or am I missing something?

Weather you can save over it or not, going through the editor gives a LOT of info. Like where all the good stuff is hidden. :)
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: madcow March 05, 2013, 11:20:08 AM
Ahh. I see.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Penumbra March 05, 2013, 12:48:38 PM
One thing I want to clarify is that we're mainly just being paranoid.  Having been burned a number of times by players having unexpected reactions to things we thought were positive, we're second-guessing things.

How about this. You implement a microphone hijack and a keylogger. Then, only unlock if a player either says or types: "Man, stupid Arcen isn't letting me use the editor! @#$*@#*$@#$*!1!!eleventy!"

Of course, this could, maybe, lead to other problems......  ;D
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: zespri March 05, 2013, 01:55:44 PM
This is kind of double-edged, but an option could be to let the editor out a bit later than the game itself. The perception as I understand it is formed in the early days when you have peak sales. Let people know that there will be an editor but not yet.

Of course there is obvious drawback that you are blamed that you promised the editor from the get go and then do no include it in the (initial) release.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: keith.lamothe March 05, 2013, 02:08:20 PM
How about this. You implement a microphone hijack and a keylogger. Then, only unlock if a player either says or types: "Man, stupid Arcen isn't letting me use the editor! @#$*@#*$@#$*!1!!eleventy!"

Of course, this could, maybe, lead to other problems......  ;D
I think SH could benefit from some biofeedback input.

"User is tense, have grays hide"
...
"User is relaxing, have grays pounce"
...
"User is frightened, queue Pablo's creepiest track, add stalking gray to level"
...
"Alert user to replace undergarments"

;)
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: madcow March 05, 2013, 02:13:19 PM
You could always disable editing the campaign levels. But then publish them on the website or something so editors can still have access to them. Cheaters could cheat still. But it would be less obvious for them ;)

Edit: cheaters are also less likely to go into that map editor sub forum whereas editors are quite likely and could notice a stickied topic.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Deekay March 05, 2013, 05:36:35 PM
You could maybe put up a kind of warning when loading up the editor that states that using the editor before playing through the game could
detract from the experience or something? Just basically let them know the effect it could have on the game for them.

Or maybe make it a separate download that you gain access to at the same time as the game (if this
isn't already the case), maybe that would discourage some people from using it on a whim?

I can understand where you are coming from not wanting people just getting into the editor too early or too often and ruining their experience and
therefore view of the game as a whole. But I think this would be the very small minority, and I think more people would appreciate full access to
the editor than those that would use it in such a way.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Greywolf22 March 05, 2013, 05:38:00 PM
I guess, another way to look at this is...how many people are going to actually consider going into the editor to look at the current level and find a way around them.

To be honest, a number of games ship with editors, but I've never considered (either because it wasn't possible to modify the existing maps, or I simply never considered it) to use the editor to find a way to bypass a level.

Generally it's far easier to go out to YouTube where someone has posted all the levels...watch how they did it, and then do it yourself. Not saying that folks will be posting Youtube videos of all the levels here.  Just generally speaking.

So maybe the other option is not to advertise that the existing levels can be modded.  Sure people who enjoy modding and are buying the game for modding will go in there and might muck around with it...but I think the average game player (not necessarily the ones who'd even come to the forum)...will look for other avenues to get past a place where they are stuck instead of the editor.

As I find most folks who play games (at least for entertainment), aren't interested in learning an editor...at least not right off the bat.  And once they play enough to say "Hey lets build our own levels", they'll already be past the point where they'd consider it to cheat with.

Just some additional thoughts.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Teal_Blue March 05, 2013, 09:19:12 PM
One thing I want to clarify is that we're mainly just being paranoid.  Having been burned a number of times by players having unexpected reactions to things we thought were positive, we're second-guessing things.

I can certainly understand the second-guessing part, you guys have been through a lot. And even though I personally feel that letting players have the editor as is from the get go is a good thing, it is really only my opinion, and one based more on my own feelings about how I would feel about it.

So... to be honest, it's really a tough call. If you go with just putting it out there, it might engender some sense of "The game is too easy... or the game is too hard..." that tigersfan mentioned.
Then again... it may not.

If you hold it back, or put limitations on it, like you have to explore x, to unlock it, or you can only edit your own levels, or there are labels that say "Official" and "Not Official"... or whatever... well, that could explode back too! With people resenting it.
Or perhaps not.

I really don't know what to tell you that will make the decision, or the difficulty of the decision easier. Is there a majority of opinion one way or another? Have you asked, not just us forumers, :)  (who tend to agree with you mostly anyway) But people outside? (But then again, I read a review and the guy was an idiot, so talking to people outside might be worse instead of better.) Ask the people in your family, in the crew that works on the game, ask them what they think, and then make a decision.  :) 

If you are of a mind, you might go to a quiet place and just let your instincts tell you what to do, or pray if you feel it. There is no easy way around this. What ever you decide to do, most of us forumers will probably be with you. (or is that backwards?) :)

Anyway, best to all of you, hang in there and keep making games, i think they are pretty cool, and even if i'm not 100 %, i still buy them.  :)  In the end, all you can do is your best, and make what you feel is the decision you feel is right. That is all any of us can do.

Take care,
-Teal
 
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Aziphos March 06, 2013, 09:18:10 AM
If the editor would be restricted it could cause an aditional problem.
Many players tend to play through the campaign and abandon a game for some months, till a patch/addon is released or till other reasons ocure.
It could be really frustrating to lose editor access through not backupped saves (ok it would be hackable but that would have the same gameinpact as my suggestion below).
I would simply include a warnig:"Using the editor before finishing the campaign is a kind of cheating and will spoil your gameexperiance" (its a bit like enabling cheatingmode in AI-wars, the player knows he isnt playing fair and has no reason to complain if the game is to easy)
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Mick March 06, 2013, 09:40:21 AM
I don't even think you need a message. If I wanted to simply use the editor, I would find that kinda obnoxious. If someone is using it to cheat, they know they are cheating, it's not like it will be a surprise to them. It's not like they will say "Oh dear me, I didn't realize I was cheating, well never mind then I won't do that."

The game doesn't need to wag its finger at the user and condescend to them if they open up the editor. Other games that have editors don't do this, they simply are there and that's that.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Teal_Blue March 06, 2013, 03:56:27 PM
Mick, you may have the key right there, "in other games the editor is simply there" is what i think you said. Maybe that is then the best way. The same way that all the other games are doing it!  :)

-Teal

: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: LaughingThesaurus March 06, 2013, 06:38:47 PM
If people cheat, they're ruining their own experience. Here's what I think:

1. Players should be able to load the original game levels, but cannot change anything or save it without some kind of password after finishing the game... or maybe ever.
2. The level editor itself should be fully featured and available from the start.
3. If the level editor is in-game somehow, you might include an achievement for finishing a playthrough without opening the level editor.

I don't know, I'd be a bit more concerned with people trying to publish the official levels somewhere else or something. As cheating goes, I really couldn't care less, and I really prefer it more when a game isn't telling me how to play it. You've been pretty open with this kind of thing with other games. AI War and Valley 2 both give you full access to developer features. The only thing you don't really get is the source code or whatever. In this case, you get to see all the secrets when you open the file (boo hoo, you could do that in many, many older games) when you can just go online and look it up in the first place. As long as people aren't actually editing the levels and replacing the campaign, it shouldn't be an issue. You still have to actually WIN the levels.
So really, if you do anything, you definitely need to make it impossible to actually save over the campaign. That would just be silly.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Teal_Blue March 06, 2013, 07:28:21 PM
If people cheat, they're ruining their own experience. Here's what I think:

I disagree...
-Teal

 
edit -  p.s.   Well i guess i need to grow up and stop getting defensive, or offensive as the case my be. my apologies for the rather rude words. LaughingThesaurus has at least as much of a right to his opinion as me. So anyway, sorry for my unfortunate blabbing.

-T

 


: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: x4000 March 07, 2013, 10:29:58 AM
At this point, we've decided just to enable it from the start and leave it at that.  That's the path of least resistance, and it leaves us free to focus on more important aspects of the game while not angering anybody, I think. 

The game definitely is not short on content, by the way, so it's not that we're looking for players to fill out the content of the game.  Any edits to the main adventure are likely to always remain unofficial and not hosted by us.  However, that said I think it's really cool as a way to extend replay value and get more out of the game when there is an editor; many of my favorite PC games as a kid were my favorite games precisely because they had an editor -- then again, I grew up to be a game designer so I guess that's no surprise. ;)

And yes, the editor is built right into the game.  You just click a button on the main menu and there it is, right in the main game engine itself.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: madcow March 07, 2013, 12:16:19 PM
Quick question about the editor (and levels in general)

Is there going to be scripting? Ie, for programming in events and the like.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: x4000 March 07, 2013, 12:38:58 PM
Quick question about the editor (and levels in general)

Is there going to be scripting? Ie, for programming in events and the like.

Yes, that's how a lot of the game logic is handled.  I.e. the tutorials, and in-engine cutscenes and so forth.  The scripting language is simplistic but effective.  For whatever reason I patterned it a bit around BASIC.  It's very whitespace-aware, though.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: madcow March 07, 2013, 12:39:34 PM
Cool!
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: keith.lamothe March 07, 2013, 01:00:36 PM
It's very whitespace-aware, though.
Hmm, not sure if I'll ever touch that with a 10-tab pole ;)
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: x4000 March 07, 2013, 01:12:43 PM
It's very whitespace-aware, though.
Hmm, not sure if I'll ever touch that with a 10-tab pole ;)

Pretty much.  It's a case of "this started out being for a couple of really simple actions" to "oh god, suddenly this is a whole language practically."  It doesn't conform to the semantics I myself look for in a coding language, scripting or otherwise.  THAT said it's wicked fast and to the point, and most scripts are indeed quite short in terms of numbers of lines.  So while it doesn't fit my general ideology when it comes to coding, it more than gets the job done for the purposes here.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: mrhanman March 07, 2013, 03:32:03 PM
Any edits to the main adventure are likely to always remain unofficial and not hosted by us.

Does this mean there will be an in-game browseable repository of user made levels?  That would be awesome!
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: x4000 March 07, 2013, 03:37:09 PM
Any edits to the main adventure are likely to always remain unofficial and not hosted by us.

Does this mean there will be an in-game browseable repository of user made levels?  That would be awesome!

It's not planned per se, but we might package some into future updates, you never know.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: LaughingThesaurus March 07, 2013, 03:45:53 PM
I don't disagree with you, Teal Blue. I actually am in favor of the editor being in from the start because of the fact that if people use it to cheat, then that's their responsibility. In my opinion, cheating typically is only going to ruin the game for you, or result in a less satisfying experience relative to how the game was meant to work. I completely acknowledge, for instance, cheating in AI War or playing with the debug options in valley 2 or whatever to have their own fun elements... but to play the game with those features, that'll ruin your experience. If you willingly do that to yourself just because it is an option that's in the game, you have no right whatsoever to complain... so any complaints on the topic that Chris could see would just not be valid in any way. I've seen this too many times, I've seen so many people who whine about exploits in single player games or who complain about having read a walkthrough spoiling the gameplay. Viewing the levels in the editor will do nothing but basically work like reading a walkthrough. People will probably complain, because that's kind of what they do. I was making the argument that complaining about some in-game way to look ahead is not valid at all.

Another major complaint, mouse control and Valley 2, I actually can see the other side and where it comes from. If the concern is that people will flip out like that again, I seriously doubt that they would. Me personally? I felt like Valley 2 wasn't perfect, and the controls actually made it play in a way that I just was not compatible with. I also could absolutely understand if somebody argued against the lack of mouse control. Compare this to Ratchet and Clank, which didn't include a strafing control for most of the game. That is a game that was made challenging because the controls were not at the generally accepted standard. While that isn't inherently bad, it is something that people can absolutely complain about.

The possibility of a player looking ahead and getting advanced cheaty scouting via level editors? Hey, you do that, that's on you. It isn't a bad design decision. In some cases it's the player's responsibility to allow the game to be a challenge. ;)
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Greywolf22 March 07, 2013, 03:46:57 PM
I for one am glad you used BASIC (or at least modeled it after BASIC)...but then I'm old and I'm nostalgic for the days of buying a BASIC computer game book and typing them in  :)
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: zespri March 07, 2013, 04:32:29 PM
I don't disagree with you, mr Teal Blue.
I thought she was a gal?
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: LaughingThesaurus March 07, 2013, 04:39:24 PM
I had no idea.
ummmmmm


Okies, I'll fix it. Sorry Teal Blue, whoever you are! I thought that sentence could use more syllables was all.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: FroBodine March 07, 2013, 05:33:12 PM
I for one am glad you used BASIC (or at least modeled it after BASIC)...but then I'm old and I'm nostalgic for the days of buying a BASIC computer game book and typing them in  :)

Hahaha Greywolf!  I spent many, many hours typing in BASIC language games.  I bought this big book of games, all had to be typed in.  The premier game in the book was Star Trek.  What a great game that was, once I got all my syntax errors fixed.   :D
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: x4000 March 07, 2013, 06:19:01 PM
Bear in mind is not -really- basic, but it's more inspired by that than anything else. I got my start with qbasic, myself.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Teal_Blue March 07, 2013, 08:51:37 PM
Sorry LaughingThesaurus,
                                            I was really out of line. And I blab too much sometimes. Please accept my apologies.
I feel rather awkward now, but maybe if i didn't put my foot in my mouth I wouldn't feel this way.
Your explanation that you wrote was very reasonable and understandable and also very well written. I write sometimes, maybe a lot of times off the cuff, which of course leads to me saying things a reasonable person would take better care with. Thank you for the nice response though, it was very big of you.
Take care,
-Teal

: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: LaughingThesaurus March 07, 2013, 11:06:27 PM
Oh don't feel so bad, Teal. Anyone who knows me knows I don't get mad when people rationally disagree with me. I love disagreements, I love being challenged, messing up, being wrong (when there's no deadline involved) and the conversations that come from that kind of thing are always interesting. Further, in your defense, I'm going to go ahead and say I was stressed and tired when I wrote that original message, so I'm not surprised that it was misinterpreted.
: Re: Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?
: Nice Save March 08, 2013, 05:14:16 AM
Have you considered a button in the options menu to unlock the Level Editor? That way prospective mapmakers could just go in and activate it, but normal players won't see it as easily until they complete the game.