Question from the devs: How do you want to gain access to the level editor?

[x4000]

Hey all,

This might seem like an odd question, but bear with me.

Premise
Shattered Haven includes a level editor, and it's extremely powerful.  It's the same one we're using to make the main game itself, minus no features.  This is great because you can make adventures just as robust as the main adventure is, or you can make just standalone levels for others to play, or whatever.

The Problem
The problem, as Josh pointed out to me shortly after he started playing the earliest pre-alpha that he got his hands on months and months ago, is that this level editor is going to tempt a lot of people (including him) to the dark side.  Having trouble with a level?  Just pop in and remove a bunch of enemies, or if it's a puzzle problem then pop in and examine the level to see what the solution is from the vantage of the level editor.

As Josh basically put it, the fact that this is right there on the main menu and so easy to access is kind of too tempting.  The basic idea out of our discussions was to limit access to editing existing levels in the game until either you'd already beaten the game, or until you'd beaten the level you were about to edit, or whatever.

The Problem That Would Cause
There are inevitably going to be at least a few people who want to create more than they want to play.  For those people, looking at our existing levels and tearing them apart to see how they work is the best way to learn how to make levels of their own.  Aside from being a really deep editor, it's freaking complicated, heh.  No one thing is particularly so, but there are just a lot of things if you're trying to jump straight into the editor.  The only way to really make that sane at all is to look at our existing examples.

If you see where I'm going with that, this basically creates a situation where players who are really interested more in creating than playing have to play in order to create.  I know when I was around 9 years old I got the game Demon Stalkers and I found it to be one of my favorite games ever -- that said, I spent easily 80% of my time creating my own levels with its level editor rather than playing the built-in ones.  That was what made the game so attractive to me, and if I'd had to win the whole game to unlock it all that would have felt really hobbled to me.

I do believe I used the DS editor to alter a couple of levels that I felt were unfairly cheap, but in no way did that dampen my enjoyment of the game.

There's other related things here, like what happens when someone loses their settings file or changes computers and thus it doesn't have a record of what they had unlocked, etc.

My thoughts
Really, my inclination is just to let you click the level editor and then you have the whole thing.  That's easiest for me and you.  However, the question has been raised if there's a need to essentially protect some people from themselves.  I've been warring with myself over that issue, and finally I've concluded that there's not a good way for me to answer the question since it doesn't really apply to me. 

So I ask you, the players: how would you want to gain access to viewing and editing official adventure levels in the level editor?  All at once, with no barriers?  Little by little as you beat levels?  All at the end, after you beat the game once (but not necessarily all the levels)?

[nas1m]

I would go for all levels being available in the level editor without any limitations right from the start. If somebody wants to cheat - let 'em cheat. This is better in my opinion than limiting the World builders. This Way everybody can decide which experience they want to have and are responsible for it...

[Mick]

I think it's fine to let them have everything in the editor. I don't really have an issue with single-player games having cheat codes available, and there are numerous non-cheating reasons they'd want access anyway.

[Greywolf22]

I agree with the folks above.  If people choose to "cheat", there are numerous ways to do that if they REALLY want to.  Essentially, there will always be people who will look to Youtube, game guides, or whatever in an effort to beat a level that they either find to difficult, or have no interest in completing.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that personally...it's a choice, and I think it's always good to have a choice when it comes to how you play.

I find most die-hard game players will resist any cheats to get the satisfaction of beating the game, and some like to tinker and find work arounds to complete a level (even if it means re-desiging said level to get around it).

In the end, I think leaving the level editor on the front screen isn't a bad thing at all...in fact there might be those who are most interested in design and want to dive right in...and for those of us who want a challenge...all the better.

How about this for a thought (if possible)...is it possible that certain achievements can't be granted if the level is modded?  It won't prevent people, but might serve as an insentive for those completionists out there who care about achievements.

[khadgar]

I would go for all levels being available in the level editor without any limitations right from the start. If somebody wants to cheat - let 'em cheat. This is better in my opinion than limiting the World builders. This Way everybody can decide which experience they want to have and are responsible for it...

I agree completely. Think of it as just another variable for difficulty. A level-editor serves as a way to un-stuck yourself as well. Maybe I missed how to use iron tacks. Maybe I hate iron tacks. Maybe I'm just really bad at iron tacks. I get to the level that is all about iron tacks, and I hate it. It's a level I can't bypass... so I edit myself in a super squid. Hooray! level complete.

[Teal_Blue]

Like the others above, I believe letting the players make the decision, and live with that decision is better than imposing a limitation for 'our' rules, which they may agree with, or may not. And if not, will we hear grief from them for not letting them make that decision?
I have a game, called Sins of a Solar Empire, a space game of some years ago, and the devs made it accessible to modify the aspects of the game, the ships, the planets, the limits, the weapons and hull strengths... etc.

It probably caused a bit of 'cheating' as it were from players who couldn't beat parts of the game. I myself am rather a noob at games sometimes, actually most times, but still i enjoy them, and the opportunity to rework or 'mod' that game gave me literally months and months of enjoyment, as i created new ships and types of ship, mixed the weapons and hulls around, changed the planets and stars, etc. 
Of which i was so proud.    The game felt even more as if it were my own. And for that experience i would have payed the devs twice for that pleasure.

If you have players that buy your game to 'build' things with, that may not be so bad a reason. What if ten years from now, some new dev re-creates a SH clone, because she was so inspired and loved so very much all the fun and enjoyment she got out of modding Shattered Haven?

Just my opinion, but i would suggest leaving the editor available from the start with no pre-reqs on it. 

-Teal

[zespri]

I would approach it this way. I would make it possible to say at a glance whether an adventure is "official" (signed, non-modified), or custom (edited, or a new one). Then let the level editor be available with no restrictions. One will be able to "cheat" by looking up how the puzzles are done and also would be able to edit level/adventure and save, but if they do they won't be playing original "official" game, which should be clear from the UI.

[Deekay]

I tend to agree with the folk here. Just let people have at it
I don't think that there would be too many people that would take the time to learn how to use the editor just to
get past certain parts of the game, and I think people would really respect and appreciate the freedom of it being completely open.

If anyone wants to learn to use the editor just to cheat their way past a puzzle, then I say let em. Hey it might even encourage
them to go on and make some great original content

[tigersfan]

Take this scenario as an example: A player gets to a level and has a difficult time. Then, they decide to go look up the solution, and find out how to solve the puzzle. If this happens two or three times over the course of the game, it's probably fine. But, my worry is that some will start to see how much easier that makes the level, and this will ruin their perception of the game.

The truth is that most of these levels aren't that hard. There are a few that can be tricky, but, if you plan ahead, and execute your plan, they can be beaten. Using the level editor to get you through a level too many times can leave players with the impression that the game is either too hard (saying "I had to cheat just to get through most of the levels") because they don't take the time to actually learn it. Or, it could leave the perception that it's too easy, since using the level editor can make every level beatable on the first try.

My first boss in North Carolina (where I live now) was fond of the phrase "Perception is reality." As an example of what he meant, he was getting on me once because some of the boxes on the shelves weren't straight (this was in a retail store). These particular boxes were right near the front door, and his point was that if someone sees that early on, their perception of the store is that it's sloppy and messy. Once someone has this perception, it doesn't matter if those were the only boxes in the entire place that were off, to that person, their perception was how they were going to see the whole store, regardless of what the truth may have actually been.

I worry about a similar thing here. If the game is perceived by some as too hard, or (even worse, IMO) too easy, then, for those players, the game is that way, and there's nothing we can do to change that.

[x4000]

Thanks for the counterpoints, Josh -- I think those are really valid and (as with most things in life), there are two sides to this.  Nothing is ever obvious-do or obvious-don't in a global sense that there are no consequences at all.

As a clarification on the "levels are not too hard" statement: they aren't hard once you figure out the trick.  That's true of most puzzle games, and the level editor lets you figure out the trick in a leisurely fashion. 

Though, all of this is still true if someone uses a strategy guide.  If you read a strategy guide in advance of each level for World of Goo, it's really a very easy game (but still a fun one).  If you don't use a strategy guide it's a lot more fun and interesting, so I think most people either don't use a guide except when they have to, or they're just the sort who wants to use a guide and get on with things, and it doesn't bother them.

Also: getting a gold completion is still hard even after you know the trick of the main-path completion.  And if you're looking to test your reflexes and so forth, moving the difficulty up from Cutthroat to either Murderous or Possibly-Impossible difficulty is something that I don't think anyone in their right mind can call easy.  I designed most of the levels, and know the solutions to them backwards and forwards, and I have extreme trouble on Possibly-Impossible.


All of the above is addressing the reality of the situation, not the perception, of course.  And yes, given the early perception problems we've had in the past with folks, I do worry about how this might affect things this time around.  I'm still leaning strongly toward the consensus up to now, but I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on these drawbacks and what we might do to mitigate them. zespri's approach makes a lot of sense if you're worried about people simply editing levels (which is one worry), but it doesn't really help with the "well, the info is right there and I'll just peek to find the solution rather than finding it out myself" sort of thing. 

Of course... the most difficult levels tend to be incredibly opaque in the editor to someone not already familiar with the editor, since they involve lots of special flags, scripts, and so forth.  Or they involve temporal sequences of events during gameplay itself that you just have to figure out and looking in the editor isn't going to help you.

[Mick]

I just think that if someone wants to use the level editor to figure out how to puzzle, they aren't the type who really cares at all how difficult or easy the game feels, they just want to play through it for the story or whatever.

Honestly, I think they are more likely to try to find a guide or walkthru online than to poke around in the editor for an answer.

From what you describe, figuring out the solution using the editor sounds fun in a different way. There is definitely a type for gamer who enjoys tinkering and figuring out how a game works more than actually playing it. These are potential customers you don't want to alienate.

[x4000]

From what you describe, figuring out the solution using the editor sounds fun in a different way. There is definitely a type for gamer who enjoys tinkering and figuring out how a game works more than actually playing it.

You just described me as a kid, to a large extent.  Though I also played loads, I enjoyed the tinkering at least equally much.  So yeah, I get what you're saying.

[nas1m]

I can only second Mick here. I was about to say something along these exact Lines ; ). I see where you (i.e. Chris and Josh) are coming from but i really don't think this will turn out to be an issue...

[x4000]

One thing I want to clarify is that we're mainly just being paranoid.  Having been burned a number of times by players having unexpected reactions to things we thought were positive, we're second-guessing things.

[madcow]

Maybe I'm missing something. How would using the editor let you cheat pass the campaign?  Would they be able to replace the actual campaign level with their edited one?

I guess I was thinking that while they could go into a level wih the editor they would only be able to save a copy. Not replace the existing level. Which doesn't really help them cheat, only deconstruct pieces of the level. Or am I missing something?