Arcen Games
General Category => Shattered Haven => Topic started by: FroBodine on March 08, 2013, 09:20:31 pm
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I'm trying to decide what controls I like the best. Straight keyboard is ok, but my hand gets tired after a short while, and I tend to keep getting stuck on corners of obstacles. You have to find the exact middle when walking between things.
Mouse movement is decent, but I don't feel like I have as much fine control and quick reactions that I have with keyboard. I haven't tried the gamepad yet. Is this a good way to play?
I'm interested in what others prefer, and what setups you're using.
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In terms of sliding around objects, that's on my list of tweaks to add. :)
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Well, I shifted things around slightly to fit my lefthanded play (well I was using my right hand but its on the left of the keyboard and my left was busy with the mouse), thoguh I'm not entirely sure it was a great way to set it up yet (Shift action key over to R, Q/E for items, add wasd as alternate movement controls and then ignore it a few minutes later and go back to mouse control >.>)
I too also haven't tried gamepad controls though.
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If your using arrow keys or keyboard for movement don't forget the "walk" key. Seriously, there a lot of narrow spots where that can really save your bacon. :P
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My own thoughts on controls is well - not pretty but has to be said. Character movement is fine, inventory on the other hand.
I realize the two active item load out is a throwback to Zelda. But just from the few levels I've played, it's rather a nuisance to have to juggle your active inventory, and I cannot see a gameplay reason that's it like this - except for limiting the game buttons, opening inventory seemed to pause the game as far as I can tell, so no draw back there. I can only imagine how bad the juggling can get later on.
I'm sure changes to that are off the table, but inventory juggling is the worst in games. If I'm finding it an annoyance, I can bet others will too.
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It used to be that there were four active inventory buttons. The result? Unplayable for most people who tried it. So it was shifted to something with one active item and you could cycle through items quickly based on other buttons. The result? Incredibly annoying and fiddly. The new system was implemented last September or so, and it's worked out the best by far.
Bear in mind with something like valley 1, there were 10 slots but you changed what was in which slot pretty rarely. Here items are coming and going pretty rapidly, making that not really the most feasible. One key thing that was found in older versions of this game was that if the game didn't pause during inventory management, players would get killed unless there was a safe zone to retreat to.
Or if you go waaay back to 2008, this controlled more like Lode Runner The Legend Returns, where you had two slots period (or one at one point), and you had to use your items before picking up new ones. That was simple, but annoying, and made for lots of backtracking. At one point items didn't even stack!
And there were other iterations, too.
All in all, I'm extremely happy with how this is working out at the moment, and goodness knows we've been through tons of iterations. I don't expect everyone to love it, but Zelda does do I this way for a reason. This isn't something I'm particularly keen to revisit, nor do I think it really needs it. I suppose if we wanted to try the current system but with 3 or 4 active item slots rather than 2, that wouldn't be the worst thing. Those who don't want to use the extra buttons can just skip them. But that's more the level of change I'd be open to; a refinement rather than a whole sale course correction.
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Technically Zelda goes up to 3 items + sword, but if you're only talking about the handheld games... ;)
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Technically Zelda goes up to 3 items + sword, but if you're only talking about the handheld games... ;)
And not if you're talking about Link's Awakening ;) (the only handheld zelda I played)
On topic, I find it fiddly switching between 4 items, but I'll deal. I find inventory juggling in games to be in general unfun. It's an issue probably because there's no good answer to it. AVWW's inventory was fairly bad as well, I think I only actually used the first few spell slots in it anyways.
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I think the controls work great the way they are, but I wouldn't mind having 1 or 2 more active slots. Excessive inventory switching hasn't been much of a problem for me so far, but I can see how it could wear one down.
The only control refinement I would like would be to enlarge the analog stick deadzone. Even at the highest setting, the character goes running off to the left a lot. In Xpadder, for example, the -X axis will sometimes come to rest as much as 32% off center. I'm using the control pad for now, but the 360's pad is pretty awful and makes my thumb sore after a while. A very minor problem, certainly.
If nothing else, I'll just use Xpadder to take care of it. ;D
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i also wouldn't mind 1 or 2 more slots, i have only used 1 or 2 items at a time, but one time i was carrying health jewels, and picked up a bear trap and was going for the tacks. I did have to change out the bear trap to get to the tacks, but to be honest, it really wasn't that big a deal. It is pretty workable as is, but if you do add 2 more slots, it might be cool.
Thank you,
-Teal
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New version with 4 active inventory slots and improved deadzones: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Shattered_Haven_-_Beta_Release_Notes#Beta_.802
Enjoy!
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Awesome! I can use the control stick again!
I think the inventory is perfect now. The extra slots are a really nice refinement.
Thanks!
Here are the controls I'm using with my 360 pad, if anyone is interested.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/22141371/SHControls.jpg)
Also, any chance we can get 360 icons in game instead of "GP3", etc.?
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Having the two buttons is great! I am now much less likely to waste my consumables!
I have been trying to write a suggestion about "preserving" your inventory between levels. But, I can't figure it out!
Picking up a brand new item in a puzzle and always having it go to the first slot breaks the "muscle memory." I have no idea what would work better, though! ;)
Just remembering where items were previously breaks many more things, I don't know.... This is pretty minor though, I think.
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We could get 360 icons, but not everyone has a 360 controller.
For example, I have everything but a 360 controller. (logitech controller, ps3 controller, ps2/gcn-to-usb adapter, keyboard, laptop keyboard, mouse with finicky middle mouse click)
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Glad that works! As for the 360 icons, that's not something we could technically support anyhow. It should be showing Xbox A and so forth with that kind of controller connected, though.
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We could get 360 icons, but not everyone has a 360 controller.
For example, I have everything but a 360 controller. (logitech controller, ps3 controller, ps2/gcn-to-usb adapter, keyboard, laptop keyboard, mouse with finicky middle mouse click)
Yes, but if there were some kind of graphic there, the community could make texture packs for other types of controllers. Not that it matters since it's not technically feasible.
It should be showing Xbox A and so forth with that kind of controller connected, though
Really? That would be good enough for me, but it's never been that way. Not even in Valley 2 (assuming it was supposed to be that way as well).
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It works in valley 2 as well, yes. However it's looking at the name windows has assigned to your controller and looking for the string "Xbox." I guess yours doesn't have that string in there for some reason. I'll have to look at that and maybe put together something that lets you test it.
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I have been trying to write a suggestion about "preserving" your inventory between levels. But, I can't figure it out!
Picking up a brand new item in a puzzle and always having it go to the first slot breaks the "muscle memory." I have no idea what would work better, though! ;)
Just remembering where items were previously breaks many more things, I don't know.... This is pretty minor though, I think.
I've thought about some sort of system like that, too -- basically, like how Zelda 3 handles it, with fixed locations for everything. Or actually most of the Zelda games (some handheld ones aside). One problem is that -- currently -- there are 41 unique items that you can find in the game. There's a handful more that we already have art for, but which aren't in the game. And if we do expansions for the game, we'll add more still.
Right now the inventory supports 25 items and that's it, so you can't have everything all at once (which is okay, because you never remotely do). The nice thing about this sort of inventory is that it's really compact. But as you say, it messes with muscle memory, which has been bugging me for a while, too. If I went to a fixed-position grid, the smallest I could do would be 7x7 instead of the current 5x5. That would give us 49 total slots, but that's only 8 slots for growth. If I went to 8x8 that's instead 64 slots. With that I could give some nice spacing to get the weapons, tools, and keys/maps/papers/etc separated out so that they don't get confusing too much.
The other thing I've been thinking is that with some of the non-usable items (things that you pick up and then you just have them), those could be moved into a separate section that is out of the main inventory. That would be the 9 papers, the golden book, the mirror, and the map. That would be 12 items we could reduce from the main inventory, which means that we'd only need 29 slots in the main inventory. If that was the case, then I could go with a 7x7 grid and 49 slots would give me as much expansion room as the 8x8 would have in the other model.
So, what do people think? Basically what this would mean is more moving around in the inventory to actually select things, but it would be something you could do from muscle memory. And the stuff you're likely to use most would be nice and compact at the top, anyhow. I think this is probably the way to go.
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Might this be related to using a wireless 360 controller? I am using one and i don't see the button labels as well...
PS: both 8x8 and 7x7 and an extra section for passive items sounds good to me. I would prefer a muscle memory friendly solution as well!
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So, what do people think? Basically what this would mean is more moving around in the inventory to actually select things, but it would be something you could do from muscle memory. And the stuff you're likely to use most would be nice and compact at the top, anyhow. I think this is probably the way to go.
I like it! At least I think I do. :)
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So, what do people think? Basically what this would mean is more moving around in the inventory to actually select things, but it would be something you could do from muscle memory. And the stuff you're likely to use most would be nice and compact at the top, anyhow. I think this is probably the way to go.
I would love this! I am big on just letting my fingers know where tings are, and at the moment, they keep asking my brain.....
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It works in valley 2 as well, yes. However it's looking at the name windows has assigned to your controller and looking for the string "Xbox." I guess yours doesn't have that string in there for some reason. I'll have to look at that and maybe put together something that lets you test it.
In device manager, the wireless receiver is listed as "Xbox 360 Wireless Receiver for Windows" and in Devices and Printers it shows up as "XBOX 360 Wireless Receiver for Windows." I guess if it's case sensitive and pulls from the name in Devices and Printers, that might explain things.
As for the inventory changes, I think the two separate sections for consumable and non-consumable items sounds great.
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Personally I think the keyboard control works great! And I was super happy to see that the item keys (Q/W) are now listed on the buttons themselves. I know that may seem like a trivial thing to most, but for some reason seeing the keys listed on the items just made it easier to remember what was what.
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Thanks!
* Fixed an issue where XBox wireless controllers were not being detected as xbox controllers and thus used generic button names.
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If you are going with the fixed item locations, you could also do the Zelda 3 thing where when you scroll to an empty slot, the cursor skips to the next valid item.
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If you are going with the fixed item locations, you could also do the Zelda 3 thing where when you scroll to an empty slot, the cursor skips to the next valid item.
Possibly, though that gets tricky when there is not something in every row. Honestly I think that would take more time than it's worth at this late hour, but the fixed locations themselves sound like something I'll take on since a lot of people seem interested in it.
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Just going to chime in that 4 active items has been a great improvement! I went in just to see it and didn't even really mean to but ended up doing a couple levels.
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Awesome!
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Agreed, the 4 active items is much better :)
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If you are going with the fixed item locations, you could also do the Zelda 3 thing where when you scroll to an empty slot, the cursor skips to the next valid item.
I kind of like being able to 'turn off' item slots. That way, if I get trigger happy, I don't accidentally use an item I don't want to.
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In terms of sliding around objects, that's on my list of tweaks to add. :)
I'd like to vote for this one! It's one of the most needed improvements to the game!
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In terms of sliding around objects, that's on my list of tweaks to add. :)
I'd like to vote for this one! It's one of the most needed improvements to the game!
I'm actually working on that as we speak!
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The inventory improvements are coming tonight! http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Shattered_Haven_-_Beta_Release_Notes#Improved_Inventory
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The inventory improvements are coming tonight! http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Shattered_Haven_-_Beta_Release_Notes#Improved_Inventory
Probably work in progress or side effect of an upgrade but this looks quite weird.
1) Do we need button labels on empty slots? If we do, they would have looked better if we had something like a empty slot graphics (a cell or something) not just a empty space not delimited by anything. Otherwise it looks weird
2) Is there a way to move items in the inventory? I always want to reorder them and I can't figure out how. If it impossible, then the screenshot configuration is mildly annoying - itmes in random slots with no way to move them
UPDATE: I just re-readed the release notes and it seems that both my complaints are actually intended changes. Does anyone else feel these are awkward or is it just me?
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I REALLY like the arrangement of the new inventory. The fact that everything has a set spot is great, I think. Once you're used to it, finding stuff is easier.
I don't know if a grid or some kind of background is necessary or not. I could take it or leave it.
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Zelda games don't have a grid, and I felt it had obscured clarity some.
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Considering that there is a possibility to play with keyboard + mouse (which I so far prefer), why is there no way to manage the inventory per mouseclick? Currently, I see no other way for selecting items and assigning them to an active inventory slot than solely using the keyboard. Thus I have to take my hand off the mouse entirely in order to do this task. All it needs is the possiblity to select items per mouseclick inside the inventory. Hope I didn't miss anything (ingame options, forum posts, ...) that might explain this.
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Oh, don't worry -- the inventory being able to be selected via mouseclick is planned. I just haven't had time to get to that one yet. I'm surprised nobody brought it up before now! :)
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That's great to hear. No hurries, then. Like the game so far. Keep it up!
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Thanks!
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Oh, don't worry -- the inventory being able to be selected via mouseclick is planned. I just haven't had time to get to that one yet. I'm surprised nobody brought it up before now! :)
I brought it up during alpha. :P
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Well, yeah -- but not since alpha has it come up, and that surprised me. :)