Author Topic: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)  (Read 42886 times)

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,153
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #105 on: October 10, 2012, 08:22:48 pm »
Because. THIS... IS.... XCOM.

Sorry couldn't resist.

The last few posts sound like good news though. Even if it isn't the original x-com, so long as it can stand up as a fun and hard tactical game in its own right, I'll be happy whenever it is I pick it up.

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #106 on: October 10, 2012, 10:57:00 pm »
I've managed to doom yet another Earth. I am beginning to wonder why they let me run the place.

Also, why do fresh bought recruits have more hp than the ones I start with. That seems a little silly.
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #107 on: October 10, 2012, 11:36:24 pm »
You noticed that about the troops too, 'eh?

Those melee inta-gib critters are viscious.  I think I'm gonna have to crank back to normal for round 1... I'm getting murdered at classic once the attrition starts and when I hit those guys it just goes to hell in a handbasket.

Btw, put your first satellite over USA... best cash flow... and the tutorial gives you a free one (very very important).
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #108 on: October 10, 2012, 11:40:14 pm »
WAIT WHAT WHY DOES IT DO THAT

I'm KINDA MAD ACTUALLY. See I was pretty sure I got nothing useful out of the tutorial, so I didn't do it again... If I dont have to build one off the bat, then maybe I can afford to pick up 4 extra men immediately (with their +2 hp ... maybe they wont instantly die to anything that looks at them)

And I've lost  3or 4 games of classic so far. Dont really see going back yet..
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2012, 11:43:12 pm »
(like, seriously. How do I fail to kill a 3hp target despite hitting, while my enemy never fails to kill a 6hp target?)
Because you clicked the "I would really prefer to lose, thank you" button at the beginning.
Also because they've had years of experience making absurd-level strategy game AIs.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #110 on: October 11, 2012, 01:56:46 am »
WAIT WHAT WHY DOES IT DO THAT

I'm KINDA MAD ACTUALLY. See I was pretty sure I got nothing useful out of the tutorial, so I didn't do it again... If I dont have to build one off the bat, then maybe I can afford to pick up 4 extra men immediately (with their +2 hp ... maybe they wont instantly die to anything that looks at them)

And I've lost  3or 4 games of classic so far. Dont really see going back yet..

I decided to go through a game of Normal first.  Get more used to the setup and the tech tree and expectations of the different buildings, learn how to organize the base, things like that.  I've only lost a few men so far and that was mostly because I suicided them to get captures or to avoid damaging internal equipment on the UFO.

Btw, Cryssalids?  They STILL suck.  Ow.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #111 on: October 11, 2012, 02:06:31 am »
I just had a really unfortunate fight with the ui that ended up costing me a somewhat important mission.

I'm pretty mad. Youknow that one feature in aiwar that lets this happen? Apparently xcom doesnt have that feature. It keeps 4 autosaves.

For future reference - 4 autosaves is about as long as it takes for you to mess up a command, your entire squad gets panicked, and then die, and oh yeah we autosave when you get back to base. And by the way, you cant hit esc and stop any of these 'cutscenes', let alone open the menu.

So yeah. pretty mad. On the other hand, the tutorial, while giving you a free sat, also makes you do silly research.
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #112 on: October 11, 2012, 04:31:25 am »
It's easy to spot the raging "I want XCOM, line for line!" and the "This is a kind of fun take on the classic" people in this thread. Seriously if all you want is a resolution increase Xenonauts is over there.

Though I should add that I've yet to play the game due to release date retardedness.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #113 on: October 11, 2012, 04:58:18 am »
Salient to the discussion on level destruction:

Quote
Also, the environments get unavoidably trashed on a grand-scale, in a fashion all too rarely seen in either strategy or action games: these are true battlegrounds. No matter how well you do in a mission, you’ll leave a bombsite behind you. Frankly, you’re probably doing more harm than good to the world.

Each bombsite begins as a place peppered with places of safety, but slowly turns into one filled with terrifyingly open, rubble-strewn spaces that you’ll struggle to cross in one turn, let alone be able to fire off a shot or go into overwatch after moving. A soldier not in cover is a dead soldier, unless he’s wearing the late-game stealth armour. Everything hinges on cover, a great deal of which is eroded or destroyed when pummelled by gunfire2 or targeted with explosives, and in addition to that the AI is pretty hot on flanking and flushing, so you need to move rather than camp at all times.

2 Scenery destruction depends somewhat on the gun used. The entry-level, bullet-based weapons don’t do much damage to non-organic matter, but by the time you’re up to plasma weapons you can expect to see rocks and walls disintegrate. However, there is no free aim for weapons other than rocket launchers and grenades, so you cannot deliberately target specific parts of the environment in the hope of making a sheltering enemy more visible. As such, scenery destruction happens only when a shot misses, and even then only occasion. This does frustrate me, as I’d love to, say, have a Heavy remove a section of wall to open up a clear line of sight for a Sniper ally. I suspect free-aim will be the most called-for mod/patch, and I hope someone makes it happen. Between your guys and the aliens, however, rest assured that every mission will see loads of devastation.

-RPS Wot I Think

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #114 on: October 11, 2012, 07:24:27 am »
Finally got reaction fire figured out.  Took some trial and error but I got there.

Alright, couple of things.  Something sticking their head out and shooting will not trigger reaction fire.  Something moving around past 'x' range for your current weapon will not trigger reaction fire.  If something pops up in range of multiple reaction fires, they ALL fire... at once.  Wasted shots... though I'm not sure there is such a thing as overkill against Mutons or Crysallids.

Additionally, change your Assaults to their pistols instead of the shotties if you reaction fire them.  They will take 2% shots with the shotty if given the opportunity, you might as well use something useful.  Same with early snipers when they're moving.  The Pistols will let you move and reaction fire with the team, and it costs nothing to switch back to the sniper at the beginning of the next round if something wandered into killable range for you.

I'm still torn on snipers.  Btw, snipers are quite powerful.  There's a choice, either you can shoot/reaction after a short move, or you can hit basically anything on the map.  I've got a pair of snipers that are part of the 'main' team, one of each.  I still am undecided which is better.  Nice open forest-y map, and Longshot rules the roost.  Urban annoyances?  Move and plink, move and plink.

There were some odd design decisions in this game regarding aiming, as well.  What appears to be an impossible shot gets 80% hit rates if you're flanked to their cover, no matter what should also be cover between point A and B.  Example, I flanked a sectoid with my heavy (double shot rules all) and ended up having to shoot over the back of an open 18 wheeler's trailer.  Since I'd flanked the sectoid's position he was 'open' to me, but that truck really should have given him at least partial cover... and didn't, simply because he wasn't directly next to it.  In realtime games I get why you might fudge some of that stuff, but I'd have expected the unreal engine to have collision detection already involved.  *shrugs*

If there's one thing that will annoy a lot of folks in this game it's the interface and level manipulation.  You're constantly battling the 'ceilings' on buildings/UFOs, trying to find the right position for the cursor indoors, and generally the cursor gets really chaotic near map edges when tossing grenades or the rockets (free fire is not kind sometimes here), and sometimes even just trying to move.  When you're trying to position yourself next to a door on the wall (a big deal to stay 'quiet') the wall immediately fades out so you can't see where the wall ends and the door begins... so you can see inside the building.  Considering it's a 3/4 view game and you can rotate the view in the 90 degree quarters, I'm not entirely sure why they felt this constant 'see through' was necessary, or the granular heights.  It was a nice idea, but it's not workin' so great.

Let's see, what else.  Medics.  Make sure you always have a medic.  Maybe two.  They're 'support' but that 3 usage medkit is just impressively powerful... particularly if you ever want your assault guys to survive missions.

Heavies have missiles but really their power is in the LMG + 2 shots/turn if they don't move.  Snap a scope on top of that and let 'em rip.  I've got a heavy with dual grenades as well but you don't really use them unless you're caught with your pants down... you don't get any of the gear in an explosion, so really the power is in the main gun.  Just keep a decent pistol on 'em, they run outta ammo quick, usually, and there are times you just need to get that kill shot.

Assault class... oh, assault class.  Alright, if you like your assault class (like I do) for starters you really need to get "New Guy" in the officer's training lounge to auto-squabbie the rooks.  Then churn your hiring/firing till you get enough of them.  Don't really need to fire them as far as I can tell, but when you've got 10 snipers it's probably overkill.  Unless you're on ironman if your snipers are going down you're restarting a mission anyway.  Close with the team using pistol for a bit of range work (laser pistols are cheap and are useful enough).  Also, hand these guys your tasers.  They're already close so they might as well do the zapping... shame you can't use 'em when you 'charge' through the sprint.  I haven't tried 'em with spiderman armor yet (skeletal) but watching them climb in second story windows should be pretty dang funny.

The tech tree is deep, and even on normal you're eventually going to run into fundage problems.  The limiter in this game is your cash flow, really, not necessarily time.  Trying to build your base out will empty your coffers, particularly since you need to dig the holes in the first place.  If you don't get a steam 'room' in the top 2 levels just restart the game, power's far too expensive otherwise.  Also, I haven't found a single thing I can build yet that I can sell on the black market.  No more turning yourself into a manufactury to supplement your lousy income.  On the bright side, most squad gear insta-builds.

Engineer and Scientist recruitment is done in an amusing way, but it's not well explained.  # of scientists affect research speed, easy enough.  # of engineers actually will limit what you can build, at all, as well as lowering the costs of production.  So, no going direct to superweapon, you won't have the # of engineers you need to get there.  You also can't hire engineers or scientists.  There's two ways to get them.  One is at the end of the month different regions will provide different numbers of eng/sci dependign on how many satellites you put over their head (btw, fill a region and you get the 'bonus').  The other way to get them is as rewards for the abduction missions (my bad earlier, I'd said they were terror missions and they're not).

Those Abduction missions usually come in sets of three, and the more panic'd the target, the higher the difficulty of defending the abduction run... which is where you usually want to go to reduce panic, so it's a bit of a catch-22.  The other two areas will increase in panic, it's just par for the course... which leads me to a small strategy... don't put up all your satellites.  Leave a gap or two (until you're nearly filled in) so you can satellite a panic'ing country and get it to calm down again.  So, you slowly grow your eng/sci cap and there's basically nothing you can do to get more except for wait for the end of the month or do specific abduction defenses.  Terror missions are a whole 'nother story.

Fail a terror mission (so far they're only coming one a time) and you lose that country permanently.  Poof, we're out, bye bye.  Your first one will let you know if you've got enough heavies with you when the crysallids come after you.  I recommend two minimum for any terror mission, unless your snipers are godly... which they most likely won't be yet.  Two and Two is better.  Fill in the gaps with a medic and an assault dude.  There's a nice little bit they added to Terror Missions now though... you can evac the idiots... errr... civilians.  Just walk someone up next to them and they run directly to the ship and are 'saved'.  No more being forced to leave one sniper WAAAAAY in the back in case some sectoid slipped the net.  They're still the centerpiece of brutal though.

Finally, difficulty.  Normal vs. Classic is all I can directly speak to but there's a few key points to be aware of.  Difficulty significantly affects how quickly places will panic.  Miss an abduction in Normal and oh well, I'll get back to you.  When you skip one in Classic it makes a huge difference, and you're always forced to skip two.  I don't know the best way to work around that yet, satellites and the controls are very expensive to build so you can't just setup the defense grid for the world in the first two months.  The other thing is that the computer is about AIWar level 5/6 in brains on Normal and about a 7.6 in Classic, at least as far as it's canniness can be considered.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #115 on: October 11, 2012, 08:53:35 am »
My god, the game's been out for a day, and you've already analysed it down to it's single lines of code. Have ye no life?
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #116 on: October 11, 2012, 09:44:57 am »
It's easy to spot the raging "I want XCOM, line for line!" and the "This is a kind of fun take on the classic" people in this thread. Seriously if all you want is a resolution increase Xenonauts is over there.
Is Xenonauts done yet?  The website doesn't seem to indicate so.  If it was, yea, I'd play that, not this.  Would probably come back to this to see how it was eventually.

That said, I don't insist on it being XCOM line-for-line.  Smaller squads, I can deal with. Mutually exclusive abduction missions, I can deal with.  Limited inventory space, er, I guess I can deal with :)  Lack of proximity grenades and who knows what else... if I have to.  Weird reaction fire, well, it sounds like it's workable, after a fashion.  Lack of levelling the battleground, sounds like maybe there's hope for that later in the game (you couldn't really bombsite everything very early in the original either, if carrying anything other than rocket launchers).  The changes to individual squaddie progression actually sound enticing, and the tech tree sounds more interesting than the original's.

Aliens spawning mid-mission in the middle of the map outside any kind of recognizable "spawn device" or "cloning tubes" or whatever?  Nuh-uh.  Not gonna do it, wouldn't be prudent.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #117 on: October 11, 2012, 10:57:58 am »
Reaction fire doesn't exist at all anymore. They've replaced it with a more "Space Hulks"-esque "Overwatch" mode. Instead of moving a second time, or firing, you can place a soldier in "Overwatch". That soldier doesn't get a chance to fire, he WILL fire at anything that moves within range (not pops up and fires, mind you). So reaction fire is far less "chance" based and more of a tactical decision in the new XCOM.

I have only played the normal abduction/terror missions, and there are no random spawns in those. The aliens are placed on the map and do their thing (you can even "spot" them before hand if you have a lucky "hearing" roll on a soldier). They do, however, get a free move when you "discover" them, so they usually scurry off into cover before you get a chance to shot them to hell.

But I've never heard of aliens just "randomly" appearing like that. It might be for that particular mission type, but I've never heard, read, nor seen it.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #118 on: October 11, 2012, 11:54:15 am »
But I've never heard of aliens just "randomly" appearing like that. It might be for that particular mission type, but I've never heard, read, nor seen it.

Bomb site they'll spawn on bomb deactivation.  VIP they respawn as you retreat the VIP towards extract.  These are the two I know of.  Sorry if there was a mislead, it's a reinforcement spawn, I'm just not excited by the implementation. 
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
« Reply #119 on: October 11, 2012, 12:00:16 pm »
Bomb site they'll spawn on bomb deactivation.  VIP they respawn as you retreat the VIP towards extract.  These are the two I know of.  Sorry if there was a mislead, it's a reinforcement spawn, I'm just not excited by the implementation. 
Ah, those mission types were never in the original, so I can't really say if I'm happy about it or not. It's likely to give you time pressure to GTFO. If it was simply as easy as to hunker down and kill the aliens, the mission would be no different from a normal abduction mission.

I guess it's the cost of variety.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!