Author Topic: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)  (Read 6890 times)

Offline TheVampire100

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,382
  • Ordinary Vampire
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2017, 07:59:15 PM »
If it would be easy to find a solution to the ISIS crisis, someone would already have done that.
This is obvious to everyone. But Trump believes that just writing "Do this in one month" makes everything trie.
He runs his presidancy like his companies. Thats what I said from the start: Trump is a salesman. All he is interested is money. He is nit fit for presidency. But its not my country, so I dont care. Ill do care however about the muslim ban. Thats none of my buisness what your country does with immigrants and you can decline them if you want.
However, it affects our country as well. In the current situation a short tempered decision like this has a big impact. Because of ISIS there are many regugees. I dont have to explain this to anyone, everyone is aware of this. The problem is, if the USA refuse immigrants to enter their country, even worse, they deny denizenship of people that already live there, probably since years, where do you think all this people will turn? Yes, Germany again. And I dont want to sound racist but we cannot afford any more. We are anready at our limit and still have to let more in. Otherwise everyone throws a temper tantrum and starts a flame war how racist Germany is. We dont have the money or resources to provide help for refugees. We still suffer from the results of two world wars. We still suffer from the emergency fundings for greece. How shall we pull this up our sleeves?
This plays however again in Trumps greedy hands (which aligns with his salesman persona). If we have no money to support refugees that WE dont turn down, we have to loan money from other countries. And I bet Trump cannot wait to get his greedy hands on a dept check, so he has Germany in his hands.

Everything else is not my concern, thats your problem, but THIS is.

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,180
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2017, 08:27:13 PM »

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2017, 08:32:11 PM »
While I'm not trying to derail things into other politics, isn't part of germany's problems EU-related, vampire?

Offline TheVampire100

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,382
  • Ordinary Vampire
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2017, 09:16:30 PM »
Your link just tells me to sign up for something.

It is. To be fair, the reason we have so many problems with immigrants is NOT the US. Thats because of our politics. In the EU and especially Germany we are more open to new immigrants than the US. I could now try to quote the entire law paragraph but what it basically says is that civil people that are hunted because of war, religious or other discriminating reasons can always come to our country and stay.

The consequence of this is of course if another country suddenly decides to close it borders, all these people will now come to us.

I didn't say I blame the Us. I simply said, that this affects us as well.
I've also heard somewhere but I have to confirm it, that Trump wants to add more taxes or whatever on imported resources/products. If this is true, this would affect us too. Germany is already one of the biggest exports countries in the world and the US is one of our main trading partners. You are dependant of us and we depend on you.

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,935
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2017, 09:52:34 PM »
they're all people, and as far as I'm concerned, all equally important.   That's why I say "it doesn't matter which group it is".  I'm not going to jump out of the woodwork JUST because Group A is getting hurt, but NOT if Group B is getting hurt.

No, it's not all equally important. Everything isn't the same as everything else. When normal citizens are at risk of dying, everything is not the same.

Go read what I wrote again.  The analogy was based on a NORMAL business transaction in a typical industry in this country. I was thinking like, I dunno, buying a game, or a cleaning product, or whatever.  I daresay that there IS, in fact, an option to simply not buy the game/product in question.... you will not A: starve or B: catch on fire if you do not choose a game or cleaning product to buy.

It's still not a correct analogy. In your business transaction, you can choose not to buy the product. In the real world, when we are talking about elections, you are going to receive a president whether or not you voted for it. You can't avoid that. And as I tried to explain at length, your options are: don't vote, vote. Either way, the number at the end of the day will reflect your behavior in regards to one person or another. And the results will affect everyone. You cannot avoid having your behavior impact the scenario. It's nothing like purchasing a videogame.

Quote
You "don't need to learn." Yes, you have said this many times.

This is true, but I am getting the impression you're not grasping what I mean by it whatsoever.   In this case, I specifically said that I don't need research to know that both parties are bad.  ...  I don't need to do any research to gain info that I, in fact, already have:  That both candidates are no good.

I understood what you said. You have created concept boxes of what politics are, some analogies and oversimplifications to avoid learning, which you keep saying that you don't have to do. And that really floors me. I'm always trying to learn. I read all the time. Books even! Not Facebook feeds! I will happily tell anyone "I don't know" about topics that… I don't know. I can't stress enough that voluntary ignorance is not a virtue. It's not something to brag about. Telling everyone that you don't need to know because you already know sounds like a Yogi Berra quote.


It's like that with politics, to me:  It's just so very, VERY obviously toxic and bad that research is utterly pointless.  The only thing that I could possibly learn is "it's even more poisonous than I thought".  All I have to do is see basic news on some site, or even just watch/listen to people argue about political topics to know these things.   

You have become an expert that no longer needs to be aware of your neighbors or the country you live in because of your emotional reaction to the topic? This is not learning. It's reacting. I'm going to guess that your sensitivities to the behavior of those around you (especially what you have already said so far) was quickly followed by the defense mechanism you have constructed around learning.



Quote
Also, you didn't answer the, "if Hitler were in the running, would you be willing to vote for the other person" question. I'm guessing that you refuse to answer that question, and so I will move on from it. I'm just going to add, I find that a little bit disturbing. It's not a trick question. It's easiest question you could ever get.

......Wait, what?  That WASNT a rhetorical question?

....Why in the numerous hells would anyone vote for Hitler?  Why... is this even an actual question being asked?  I know I'm negative as all hell, but surely you don't think I'm THAT messed up.  Of course I wouldn't vote for that murderous nightmare of a total maniac.  Again, why is this even a question?   This is making less and less sense.  "Not voting" does not equal "voting for Hitler". 

I mean, just.... what.

That's not the question I asked. The question clearly asks you, would you cast an opposition vote if you knew Hitler was running? Would you vote for the other person?

===
Also, I can't vouch for whether it's real or not, but it certainly is amusing: @roguePOTUSstaff
You can go into the list of persons that that account is following on twitter and you can get the alleged alternative accounts for the science agencies that were silenced by Trump.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,180
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2017, 09:53:28 PM »
Your link just tells me to sign up for something.

Mine?
It goes to whitehouse.gov

Specifically to Briefing Room > Presidential Actions > Presidential Memoranda > "Presidential Memorandum Plan to Defeat the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria"

Offline TheVampire100

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,382
  • Ordinary Vampire
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2017, 10:11:30 PM »
I could now read it. First time it just told me to register/log in.
So Trump truly thinks that in a miracle someone suddenly has an idea to defeat ISIS that no one had begore. Genius.

Cyborg, I dont see where you are going with this. Misery basically just said that he wouldn't vote Hitler. And he also implied he wouldnt vote at all. That answers your question: Misery stays to his concept. Just drop it already.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 10:15:14 PM by TheVampire100 »

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,935
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2017, 10:35:28 PM »
I could now read it. First time it just told me to register/log in.
So Trump truly thinks that in a miracle someone suddenly has an idea to defeat ISIS that no one had begore. Genius.

Cyborg, I dont see where you are going with this. Misery basically just said that he wouldn't vote Hitler. And he also implied he wouldnt vote at all. That answers your question: Misery stays to his concept. Just drop it already.

Misery can choose to not answer the question. But the question remains unanswered.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,108
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2017, 01:16:32 AM »
No, it's not all equally important. Everything isn't the same as everything else. When normal citizens are at risk of dying, everything is not the same.

Actually, when they're at risk of dying, it's even MORE the same than it otherwise would be.  Why?  Because a life is a life:  When it comes to different groups of people, I'm not going to say "Well Group A is SO much more worth it than those jerks at Group B".  I know MOST people do this, which yet again is that concept of tribalism, but I could never bring myself to make such a choice.  Thus, my stance:  There is no good choice.  If a vote will *always* hurt someone, I will not vote.   There isn't any fourth option to help people, like, I dunno, summoning Batman or Superman, so not voting it is.    When the choice is effectively between "horrible alien deathray" and "giant wall of machineguns", I'm.... just going to leave.  Thanks, but no thanks. 


Quote
It's still not a correct analogy. In your business transaction, you can choose not to buy the product. In the real world, when we are talking about elections, you are going to receive a president whether or not you voted for it. You can't avoid that. And as I tried to explain at length, your options are: don't vote, vote. Either way, the number at the end of the day will reflect your behavior in regards to one person or another. And the results will affect everyone. You cannot avoid having your behavior impact the scenario. It's nothing like purchasing a videogame.

Hm, it is true:  You're going to get some stupid president no matter what you do.  However, I would not get the president *I* personally chose, because it's not up to me:  It's up to a bunch of shrieking jackals that spend damn near all of their "research" time just screaming at each other.  Again, I'm not going to join that mess.  Though, after having looked stuff up, even THAT isn't quite right:  It seems that the popular vote, as in, the ACTUAL majority count, went to Hillary... not Trump.  So... he was chosen ANYWAY due to what I can only assume is a MASSIVELY screwed up system.  If that's even POSSIBLE... what in the seven hells is the point in the first place?  This is on TOP of the question of "how did such an unfit pair of individuals become the only possible choices".   It's completely ridiculous.  Not only do I not like empty gestures, as I've stated, but I also don't like things that make so little sense that they actually go backwards into anti-sense.  Which is what this is.   Why sit there and attempt to operate a machine that is A: clearly broken, and B: likely to simply shoot fish all over the place when you push a button that says it will, I dunno, print a greeting card?  Yes I'm lazy with the analogies today, but due to the sheer ridiculous derp of the situation, that one absolutely fits.

Quote
You have created concept boxes of what politics are

Hm, you  misunderstand me after all.   I didn't create mere concept boxes for politics.  I created compiled knowledge/experience boxes related to humanity in general.  As someone who takes zero active part in society, I have the very, very rare ability to see it from the outside.  In addition, I've been on the wrong end of the sword..... so many times in the past.  I know how people think, I know how bad they can often get, but more than anything else, I know how blasted DUMB they are, and I also know how far that tribal instinct goes.  I understand how people BEHAVE, and how they think (and have had ALOT of opportunities in my life to prove that).  That knowledge is how I used to get jobs, back when I actually used to need them.  When considered within the context of A: society and B: typical human behavior, habits, and reasoning, it's freakishly obvious that politics CANNOT be anything other than poisonous.  As in, it's utterly impossible for it to be otherwise.  It's always ALWAYS going to be filled with people that are out for themselves, in a system that's basically designed around swaying votes by duping as many people as possible.  By making yourself sound so utterly amaaaaaaazing that you get the damn job even if you're the biggest damn fool ever.  Again, this is not a system designed around the idea of telling people what you can do for them, and then actually doing it with their best interests in mind.  That would NOT be poisonous, and non-poisonous is impossible.  This is a system that at it's deepest core, is about power and control, and puffing yourself up to the the alpha of the pack, and I think you know that as well as I do.  On the occaision that you actually get someone that SERIOUSLY isn't in it for themselves... chances are, they aint making it too far, because the true politician-types know all too well how to rip and tear, not caring who they hurt...  You need that kind of nasty mindset to do that, and the person-who-actually-cares doesn't have that, and cannot compete.

Quote
I'm going to guess that your sensitivities to the behavior of those around you (especially what you have already said so far) was quickly followed by the defense mechanism you have constructed around learning.

I don't actually understand what this means.

Quote
That's not the question I asked. The question clearly asks you, would you cast an opposition vote if you knew Hitler was running? Would you vote for the other person?

Ah, I see what you meant now.

However, I don't think it's going to help your side of the argument.

Why?

Because in an election situation, the voter in question knows not to vote for Hitler BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW HOW EVIL HE IS... this is why you are able to even pose this question.  Trump and Hillary are not like Hitler: They're not people that have been pulled out of a history that we have already seen the outcome of.  We don't KNOW what major events might transpire during the next 4 to 8 years, yet looking back on Hitler, we KNOW that he would bring about the Holocaust.    But THIS election?  As with most, all I see is "two total idiots/jerks/morons/bullies/whatever".  Neither is good.  And, being unable to outright see into the future to spot which one is going to release the army of flying monkeys, there is no clear choice to make at all.  Just lots of gibberish flying in all directions.  So, your analogy cannot apply here.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 01:42:11 AM by Misery »

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2017, 03:34:35 AM »
*germans are racists*
Hey, you could do what Sweden does. We take in every refugee ever, even people who aren't actually refugees. All because we have to "look good". We can't support even half of these people and already we have ghettos forming, crime is on the rise and integration has taken a huge plummet since the formation of those closed societies.

But you know. We look good?
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2017, 03:37:35 AM »
Also, Misery, are you sure you don't agree with my views of politics? It sure as hell look that way :P
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,108
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2017, 04:16:09 AM »
Also, Misery, are you sure you don't agree with my views of politics? It sure as hell look that way :P

If your views can effectively be summed up with "Bah, everything sucks and this is all really stupid", then I can probably agree with them, yes.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2017, 04:38:23 AM »
Also, Misery, are you sure you don't agree with my views of politics? It sure as hell look that way :P
If your views can effectively be summed up with "Bah, everything sucks and this is all really stupid", then I can probably agree with them, yes.
That's pretty close. Mine's a bit broader on the scope of humanity, but overall, yes.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,751
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2017, 10:38:38 AM »
What Cyborg doesn't seem to understand is that whatever candidate you vote for, Trump or Clinton, you're still supporting a corrupt system.

Even if you're voting for "the lesser of two evils", which Cyborg wouldn't even deny, you're still supporting evil.

So are you supporting evil in the form of a raging, bigheaded, megalomaniac, or a criminal supported in large part by criminal organizations; a career politician who can not even deny that she will do and say whatever necessary in order to advance her political goals. This not even mentioning the fact that she only became the "Democratic" candidate through a rigged election which caused the leader of the Democratic party, Wasserman Schultz, to be fired in July. She shouldn't have even been the nominee.

The whole "But Trump is so much worse than Hillary" is so obvliously missing the point, it's impressive.

Even if Trump were infinitely worse than Hillary (I'm not convinced that he is), Hillary is still a god damn awful candidate, and I don't even think most Democrats would deny this.

Again, even if the stakes were actual Hitler vs. Hitlerly Clinton, I would vote for neither. A better question in that situation would be, how did our political system become so corrupt and so apathetic towards the needs of the people that these became the only two viable options?

And the answer to that question is CERTAINLY not to continue supporting it. There is no universe where I would participate in this system, and a hundred Cyborgs with their appeals to Patriotism and miniature mouse-sized violins could change that.

Hell, I use medicaid. Obamacare was a Godsend for me. I have a disease that is slowly crippling and warping my skeleton, leaving me in immense pain and completely debilitated unless I continuously take this medicine that is so expensive, it would be difficult to afford it on a Doctor's income. There's no way I could pay for it on my own merits.

Even knowing how hard Trump was going to try and destroy Obamacare, there was still no universe that I would vote for Hillary just to save myself. No way, not happening.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 10:50:14 AM by Wingflier »
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline TheVampire100

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,382
  • Ordinary Vampire
Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2017, 12:51:48 PM »
*germans are racists*
Hey, you could do what Sweden does. We take in every refugee ever, even people who aren't actually refugees. All because we have to "look good". We can't support even half of these people and already we have ghettos forming, crime is on the rise and integration has taken a huge plummet since the formation of those closed societies.

But you know. We look good?
I know this was sarcasm but still: Germany does not do this to look good but to help people.
But you cannot help people if you don't have the money to support them.
Hell, even now we are already at the edge, I hear every week that some refugee cams/asyl homes have been attacked by people or someone set fire. I hear everyday from protests. The situation is already really tight and it does not need much more to escalate.
And it does not help that we had a terroirist attack in Berlin, something that never happened before to us. We knew it could happen anytime, but when it happens it is still a shock.