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Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Cyborg on January 27, 2017, 09:53:42 PM

Title: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on January 27, 2017, 09:53:42 PM
First, the disclaimer. If you clicked on this topic and find yourself getting all upset, just remember you put yourself here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe64p-QzhNE
What "Orwellian" really means - Noah Tavlin
TED talk

So, really checking off all the boxes here. I find myself mournful, looking at the systematic disintegration of healthcare, care for the poor and disabled, the environment, silencing our scientists, and threatening immigrants. Talk of a round up is starting up again, with “sanctuary cities” vowing to block the way. I read and watched the confirmation hearings. I have also been reading and keeping up on who is who and the entire election process. It’s embarrassing.

I know I have said many times, the left and right are not opposites. They are not equal. You cannot make a false equivalence and say, “oh they are equally bad.” And you cannot say, “you are just mad your side lost.” Both of those phrases is to ignore what’s going on and the severe threat to fellow Americans.

If you are not a white male, you lost.

So what do we do now? All I can think of is, reach out to those who think that voting doesn’t matter. Get people to pay attention and realize their responsibility to take a little bit of time out of their lives to check a box on a piece of paper. And not just for themselves, but for their neighbors. To actually give a shit about other people and the planet everybody lives on.

Unfortunately, the damage to the health care system and the environment will result in real fatalities. It’s not a joke, and never was, and I hope that people show up during congressional midterms two years from now and vote.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on January 27, 2017, 10:14:58 PM
You forgot to mention wanting to essentially kill any useful functions of the FCC in favor of ISP-lobbied bullshit (https://www.techdirt.com/blog/netneutrality/articles/20161117/05533336066/trump-gop-prepare-to-gut-fcc-boss-tom-wheelers-populist-reformsunder-false-banner-populist-reform.shtml), and the literally-impossible 'good backdoors' argument that should have stayed dead and buried is apparently back for more. (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170126/09525936573/new-attorney-general-loves-him-some-encryption-backdoors-which-should-pair-up-nicely-with-fbi-directors-plans-future.shtml)

Its not as big a deal as the enviromental fuckups, the healthcare 'No we don't have a replacement but hug obamacare anyway, we've waited 8 years for this'. or the science thing, but its there.

This is what happens when you give the joke candidate with nothing but money a chance.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on January 27, 2017, 11:14:10 PM
Normally I might be a bit bothered by yet another damn politics topic showing up, but this IS the Arcen forums, where people arent angry and/or made of crazy, so.... feh.  I'll offer my totally useless input.

I, personally, am one of those that didn't bother voting.  A few reasons:

1.  didn't care enough.  And we'll get to why in a moment.

2.  Was REALLY bloody tired of hearing about the whole thing (my mother and stepfather never shut up about it, to the point where I simply leave if they dont stop within 10 minutes of me getting to the house), and politics almost entirely consists of people arguing and whining and NEVER GETTING THINGS DONE.  Throwing my own chainsaw into the giant whirring, screaming mess wouldnt do a damn thing.   Which is also partly because of:

3.  That I see politicians, ALL of them, as inherantly bad.  TO me, it didn't matter worth a flying fart which candidate won.  They were in politics:  That was all I needed to know to hate them both.  Aint exactlyl many good politicians out there, and regardless of who won, it would have led to lots of screaming and whining either way.  Whoever won would A: screw things up, and B: do things that made people really angry.  Happens every bloody time.  Always has, always will.  Even more reason why I get so tired of this crap.  How many times over the last 8 years have I heard "The president screwed THIS up!"?  2351058016627 or so? Somewhere around there.

4.  Given that view on them, I never learned anything more than their names.  And I dont watch the news or anything like that, and if anyone I know threatens to try to talk to me about such things, I hit them with stuff until they learn their damn lesson.  Being that I fortunately have no such knowledge then, there's no point in voting.  I may as well just be flipping a coin.  I cant even exaggerate my lack of knowledge on this one:  I dont even know what left/right are even supposed to mean.  Or the difference between democrat and republican.  I have rather made a point of not knowing these things.  I get more than a little unpleasant if someone tries to educate me.

5.  And one of the biggest reasons for that, is because of watching what politics DOES to people.  Have you ever noticed how an arguement about a political issue goes?  If there are two answers to an important, big, major question, you would assume that the proper way to approach answering it would be to sit down, examine the issue, apply logic, and think it out for yourself, right?  Yeah, that's not how politics work.  I have no bloody clue what "liberal" or "convervative" means, but I HAVE noticed that instead of actually thinking about the issue at hand, people will just look for certain key words that represent one of those two, and if that does not match their chosen side, then they will not say "yes", EVEN IF THEIR NORMAL WAYS OF THINKING WOULD LEAD TO A YES, if those two labels were not present.  It's tribalism at it's absolute worst, and it turns people into a bunch of rather dimwitted apes.  Well, more dimwitted than usual.  I see what effects it has, I watch people act like a bunch of schoolyard brats, I watch them picking SIDES instead of examining individual things... and I want no bloody part of it.   It's toxic.  It's all toxic.



So, that's a bit of a view from someone that didn't vote, and explaining WHY I didn't vote. 


What I WONT do, fortunately, is jump into either specific side of the possibly inevitable debate that will result in this topic.

And I'll also take a moment to at least say:  Just keep it civil, everyone.  Let's not have that damn gun topic again.  That whole incident was pretty bad, as things on this forum goes.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Draco18s on January 28, 2017, 01:25:00 AM
If you are not a white male, you lost.

Even if you are, you lost. You just haven't realized it yet, nor are you going to lose as much as everyone else.

But you still lost.

Just a list of various tidbits:
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Wingflier on January 28, 2017, 04:21:01 AM
I'm just trying to get over the irony of this anti-immigration executive order being signed on Holocaust memorial day.

Or the fact that anybody could think that building a wall between the U.S. and Mexico could ever result in a positive outcome with the Berlin wall having been so recently torn down. I'm just amazed.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on January 28, 2017, 03:33:17 PM
And I'll also take a moment to at least say:  Just keep it civil, everyone.  Let's not have that damn gun topic again.  That whole incident was pretty bad, as things on this forum goes.

I won't rehash the gun topic. I stand by everything I said, however. Continued ignorance is what got us here.

It's tough to get people to care about others. Even someone like Misery, who openly admits to not knowing what is going on and is perfectly content in their bubble, can't be bothered to read about it. Can't be bothered to be literate about the topic. Can't be bothered to take a half hour to go vote.

I wonder, at what point do the Misery-like persons of the world take responsibility? What would have to happen for someone like Misery to care? Because there are tons of folks like that. Most people didn't vote.

One wonders, if the current administration fired up the ovens, but they gave people like Misery a chance to vote first, would folks like Misery vote? What event would have to happen for someone to pay attention?

If you can't care about the poor and the sick, if you can't care about people with disabilities (even though Misery has disclosed and asked us to respect his/her disability on this forum), if you can't care about women and their health, if you can't care about immigrants, what is the breaking point where someone like Misery would care enough?

What makes people care enough?

And some of it I agree with, that partisan blinders prevent people from solving problems. I do believe that the two-party system is broken, and it has turned into a personality cult. And I'm not saying that "the liberals are right" because they're liberals, but rather, I'm addressing the individual topics on their own merits. And when I addressed the gun control topic, I addressed it on its own merits. It just so happens that there is a party out there which makes an awful lot of money on weapons, and whether or not people are dying, it doesn't matter to them. That's not partisan, it's addressing the matter on its own merits, and one side does happen to be wrong.

I would posit the same thing about healthcare. It seems kind of obvious to me, every major country in the world has healthcare for all. Surely, living healthy is something we can all agree on.

I would say the same thing about people with disabilities. Should they be swept away or allowed to die because they cost money? And if that's what's happening now, are people just going to shake their heads and say "oh that's too bad"? Will people just not care because it's not them? Will people just not care because of the extreme apathy and depressing words that Misery wrote? I would say that while a literal oven is not being fired up on the White House lawn, it's being done in a much more clever way. Remove the healthcare, remove the medication and the doctors, what more devious way to remove the "burdens on society" than by taking away what gives them life? They don't need literal ovens. In the modern era, it's much more devious, much more sinister, you can remove a population by Executive Order. And that's what we see happening.

There's nothing partisan about killing your own people. And there's nothing noble about looking the other way.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on January 28, 2017, 04:16:55 PM
Saw an interesting thing on the tv downstairs, which if I'm summarizing correctly is 'The executive order is unconstitutional, there is no definition of "sanctuary cities" in law, and does not overrule the federal court order we are following. So we are currently following the law even if we do not deal with this nonsense.'
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Wingflier on January 28, 2017, 05:47:09 PM
Quote
There's nothing partisan about killing your own people. And there's nothing noble about looking the other way.
Sorry, but Hillary wasn't an option for me either.

I don't care if she was running against Hitler himself, I wouldn't have voted for her. She was untrustworthy, unqualified, has changed her position on basically every political stance we have a name for, and was facing criminal allegations, which she was never officially cleared for, the Director of the FBI simply said he didn't have enough evidence to try her.

The idea that in a Democracy, you have to vote against the worst candidate to keep the cogs slicked and the wheels turning is bafflingly idiotic. If there isn't a candidate who you trust and who fairly represents your interests, I dare say you shouldn't vote at all. Not that the non-major party candidates have any chance of winning, but our system is broken, and to make a sweeping generalization that anybody who refuses or isn't interested in participating it is somehow an apathetic or callous person is amusingly disingenuous.

As an example, when the evidence was overwhelming that the Democratic party had unfairly rigged the primaries and conspired against Bernie Sanders over and over again in order that Hillary would win, the director of the party was forced to resign. Even though Hillary won the Democratic nomination, she did not win it fairly, and therefore technically I didn't even recognize her as the nominee.

You can not call yourself the "Democratic Party", and then spit in the face of democracy just so the party gets the candidate it wants, at the expense of the people. If the process had been fair, maybe Hillary would have still won, we'll never know. But whatever you want to say about Trump, at least he won his nomination fair and square, in spite of the struggle of the Republican Party to get somebody else instead.

Again, our system is bought and paid for by big money. Bernie was the only candidate I was willing to vote for, because he was the only candidate that was focused on the real issues, which is our corrupt political and financial system. After he got screwed, I refused to participate in that system, because it was clear that Democracy was not the first priority (nor has it been for a long time).

Honestly, your rant about Misery doing his duty to America really irked me. It seemed like an entire paragraph of virtue signaling, on the Arcen forums no less. You should probably take that somewhere else.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on January 28, 2017, 08:20:53 PM
And I'll also take a moment to at least say:  Just keep it civil, everyone.  Let's not have that damn gun topic again.  That whole incident was pretty bad, as things on this forum goes.

I won't rehash the gun topic. I stand by everything I said, however. Continued ignorance is what got us here.

It's tough to get people to care about others. Even someone like Misery, who openly admits to not knowing what is going on and is perfectly content in their bubble, can't be bothered to read about it. Can't be bothered to be literate about the topic. Can't be bothered to take a half hour to go vote.

I wonder, at what point do the Misery-like persons of the world take responsibility? What would have to happen for someone like Misery to care? Because there are tons of folks like that. Most people didn't vote.

One wonders, if the current administration fired up the ovens, but they gave people like Misery a chance to vote first, would folks like Misery vote? What event would have to happen for someone to pay attention?

If you can't care about the poor and the sick, if you can't care about people with disabilities (even though Misery has disclosed and asked us to respect his/her disability on this forum), if you can't care about women and their health, if you can't care about immigrants, what is the breaking point where someone like Misery would care enough?

What makes people care enough?

And some of it I agree with, that partisan blinders prevent people from solving problems. I do believe that the two-party system is broken, and it has turned into a personality cult. And I'm not saying that "the liberals are right" because they're liberals, but rather, I'm addressing the individual topics on their own merits. And when I addressed the gun control topic, I addressed it on its own merits. It just so happens that there is a party out there which makes an awful lot of money on weapons, and whether or not people are dying, it doesn't matter to them. That's not partisan, it's addressing the matter on its own merits, and one side does happen to be wrong.

I would posit the same thing about healthcare. It seems kind of obvious to me, every major country in the world has healthcare for all. Surely, living healthy is something we can all agree on.

I would say the same thing about people with disabilities. Should they be swept away or allowed to die because they cost money? And if that's what's happening now, are people just going to shake their heads and say "oh that's too bad"? Will people just not care because it's not them? Will people just not care because of the extreme apathy and depressing words that Misery wrote? I would say that while a literal oven is not being fired up on the White House lawn, it's being done in a much more clever way. Remove the healthcare, remove the medication and the doctors, what more devious way to remove the "burdens on society" than by taking away what gives them life? They don't need literal ovens. In the modern era, it's much more devious, much more sinister, you can remove a population by Executive Order. And that's what we see happening.

There's nothing partisan about killing your own people. And there's nothing noble about looking the other way.


It's not a matter of not caring.  It's a matter of having the very, very rare view of someone looking in from the outside.

Part of it is an effect of the fact that I'm autistic:  I'm less affected by tribalism than most, because how can one that naturally avoids others like the plague ever become part of such a tribe?  So I dont get sucked in so easily.  From that point of view, I can see what it's doing to people, and the simple fact that politics is *always* toxic.  Even just watching my own parents... I have great respect for them, and they taught me many things as I was growing up, but I'm ashamed to see them when they're in political mode.  The things they say about people..... ugh.  It's a truly nasty tranformation, and it's nearly universal when it comes to politics.  That tribalism again.  "If you're not with us, you're against us".  I see it so much, and I not only refuse to dive into the pit of gibbering hyenas, I refuse to BE one of those hyenas.

I didn't vote because even without looking stuff up, I already knew that no good would come of it.  If the other candidate had won, people would still be flipping the    hell out.  It'd still be gloom and doom:  It's just that the sources would be different.  But they'd be there, one way or another.  I'll have no part of it.  Something that Wingflier said up above is "Hillary wasnt an option for me either".  That's how I *always* see it... again, I recognize the nature of what's happening.   There is no "lesser evil" to choose from. There's only different TYPES.

As a rule, despite my admitted misanthropy, I do tend to care about people as a rule.  But politics doesnt help anyone.   There are times when it might SEEM to, but when you really look hard enough, you see that it's doing just as much damage.  No matter which way I might choose in such matters, it will hurt someone.  Misanthropic I may be, but I refuse to hurt others.  Knowing there is no GOOD choice, I simply make NO choice.  The hyenas can fight amongst themselves.

I'll say though that I know a BIT more than I will usually admit to.  You cant sit around your overly political family, who complain about things at the damn screen non-stop and never shut up unless I rant at them enough, and not hear at least SOME things.  But I didn't memorize details:  I simply heard enough to see the negativity on both sides, and negativity is something I sure as hell understand. The details dont matter to me.  So.... yeah.  No good option. 

If someone really wants to do some good:  Go volunteer.  Help the poor.  Or help those around you that are in need.  Even just a small gesture can brighten someone's life.   And I've learned over the years that THIS is what I can do for people.  As an example, it's part of why I do what I do around here.  I just dont speak of things in this manner very often... cant be breaking my own wall of dark negativity, after all.


I'll also say something here too, and I wouldnt admit this in damn near any other forum I go to: In relation to two groups that are very under fire right now, I understand well both the problems that the disabled face, and the problems that the LGBT group face.  I have my own issues in both.  I"m technically disabled, and I have my own gender issues.  So in a case like that, yeah.... I know everyone there is hurting. I dont need to look THOSE up.  And I do care, because how could I not? But again, to choose one option is only to then hurt a DIFFERENT group that I DONT know about, yet is no less important.  So, again, I choose no option, and simply do things directly in situations around me.  I can help people out that I meet from both groups in my own ways, when capable.  Even I can at least managed that.

....I really typed that stuff out, didn't I?  I may edit some of that when the caffiene wears off.  Or not, maybe in this place that'd be silly and unnecessary.


But whatever.  I think you get the gist of what I'm saying here overall.  You certainly dont have to agree with me, and that's absolutely fine.  But I can at least explain myself a bit.  Anyone that's been here knows I explain stuff alot.  Very lengthy explanations indeed.


Also I'm glad to see that this hasnt devolved into a screaming mess.  EVERY other forum I've been to, even the autism one, this would have degraded into a shrieking ball of flaming stupid within three posts.  It's a freaking tragedy to watch. 
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: z99-_ on January 28, 2017, 08:42:45 PM
Misery for president 2020.

"There is no good choice, no lesser evil to choose from. So just choose me! Uhh, but I guess that would still be choosing someone, wouldn't it? Hmm, this is confusing ... what were we talking about again?"
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on January 28, 2017, 08:50:53 PM
My thoughts have always been that we could just put a small poodle or something in charge.  Would get better results that way.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: z99-_ on January 28, 2017, 08:58:54 PM
A cat would get the same results as now, but it would be far more enjoyable to watch.

Except it would probably insist on napping on the nuclear launch button ... but AIWC and SR have taught me to associate pain with fun, so I guess that wouldn't be too bad.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: wwwhhattt on January 28, 2017, 09:57:43 PM
On getting people to vote:

In Scotland the percentage of people voting in UK elections had decreased from 75% in 1992 to 63% in 2010 (the low point being 60% in 2005).

In 2014 there was the independence referendum with 84%* (No: 56%. Yes: 44%), and in the 2015 election the turnout rose to 71% (almost the same as 1997), with 4 of the top 5 constituencies for turnout being in Scotland (and the only 2 to have over 80%). 2015 was also the first election since 1979 that Scotland's turnout was higher than the UK average.

In the independence referendum there were only 2 areas with less than 80% turnout. Both were areas with high unemployment and low life expectancy, and both voted for independence.

In the 2005 UK election the results in Scotland were:

Labour: 41
Liberal Democrats: 11
Scottish Nationalists: 6
Convervatives: 1

In 2010

Labour: 41
Liberal Democrats: 11
Scottish Nationalists: 6
Convervatives: 1

And in 2015:

Scottish Nationalists: 56
Labour: 1
Liberal Democrats: 1
Convervatives: 1


Clearly the referendum was hugely important, but then so was the EU referendum which only got a 72% turnout. I think the main reasons are that the independence campaign was largely based on plans (specifically, increased welfare and getting rid of nuclear weapons) that the 3 major UK parties were against to varying degrees, and so people who would normally feel that voting was pointless actually had something to vote for rather that against.

As you can see from the changes between 2010 and 2015 it also disrupted the tribalism Misery criticizes (it used to be said that you voted for whatever monkey wore Labour's badge). This is probably partly because 2010 ended with a Conservative-Liberal coalition (also a major reason why the Liberals did so badly), so the SNP looked more likely to get into power, but I can't imagine that that alone would account for such a dramatic change.

From what I saw of the US election (only from polls and Democrats, I don't know any republicans) it looked like Clinton wasn't offering anything beyond lesser evil status beyond smoothly continuing a form of politics that normal people have less and less use for. Trump didn't do so well either (judging from the polls they both did as well as you'd expect from a losing nominee), so I guess neither of them had anything different (from the past) to say.

Hope this helps, but I don't know US politics well enough to apply stuff. I might edit it later if it's too aimless and unreadable.


*Fun fact, the last time there was a higher turnout was before men who didn't own property and any women at all had the right to vote.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on January 28, 2017, 10:36:31 PM
I didn't vote because even without looking stuff up, I already knew that no good would come of it. 

 ??? What? Even without researching, you have the answers?

If the other candidate had won, people would still be flipping the    hell out.  It'd still be gloom and doom:  It's just that the sources would be different.  But they'd be there, one way or another.  I'll have no part of it.  Something that Wingflier said up above is "Hillary wasnt an option for me either".  That's how I *always* see it... again, I recognize the nature of what's happening.   There is no "lesser evil" to choose from. There's only different TYPES.

I have Wingflier on ignore, ever since the conspiracy theory thread. It's my opinion that he is nuts. But for a moment, I'll take a look at his post.

I don't care if she was running against Hitler himself, I wouldn't have voted for her.
:o
Oh yes, back on ignore.

Well, I do think you have challenges Misery that might prevent you from being able to do the math. I'm not blaming Trump on you personally, although collectively I do blame it on folks that can't be bothered to learn. I would be able to take what you're saying a little bit more credibly if you had some kind of fact-based opinion (although you keep repeating that you didn't research anything), but what you're saying is, either possible universe would be bad so it's best not to participate. Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.

I fundamentally can't understand head-in-sand realities. It's hard for me to understand the notion that not learning, not bothering to be educated, is somehow a valuable pursuit. I don't know what to say to that. I think you are around the same age I am, I don't have any hopes of convincing you that caring about others and learning about the world is valuable if you haven't come around to that by this point. I will say that not everyone has the ability and the luxury of being safe and secure in their bubble as you do. Some people suffer a very real reality where living is at stake, it's not a wash, both possible universes are not equal, and they need a little bit more from their neighbors. They need you to show up every two years. Even if you don't think you are needed, you are. But it's your choice to ignore that call.

It's been pretty incredible to see the very idea of facts being questioned. Our very scientists are being muzzled. The idea that ignorance is somehow valuable and noble, that it's a legitimate pursuit. I do volunteer in my community. I'm an active participant in the process.

I'm hoping that in midterms, in two years, we will have people who care about others show up.
 
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on January 29, 2017, 12:30:42 AM
It'd be interesting to see what would happen if each candidate got X funding each from some sort of election dept and no more, but then we'd probably just see more bullshit like pulling the floor out from bernie because of not being able to throw money and news at the people either boring, terrible, or suspicious enough to run for political office.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on January 29, 2017, 01:22:58 AM
Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.

It's like I said:  a vote for EITHER side ends up hurting SOMEONE.  RIght now with things as they are, those two groups seem to be hurting.  If it had been the other side though, it'd just be OTHER groups hurting.  There is no option that doesnt lead to pain.  None.  This, to me, is the very nature of politics; politicians, as a rule, are rather selfish individuals who will do whatever it takes to gain power and renown.  They're never trustworthy, and just as damn nasty as some of the jerks you see in the usual screaming arguements.   With zero good options to choose from, what in the heck else would I do?  As I said, it's not about a lack of caring.  But what I can most do for others is help those nearby, or those who come to me for assistance (which, oddly, happens alot, no I havent figured out why).  THAT is what I can do.  Instead of diving into the hyena pile and wasting time/energy on things that'll serve no purpose other than getting me all angry, which helps nothing and nobody.  I'm not too fond of things that dont do much of anything.

Besides, like I said, it's not that I ACTUALLY dont know anything at all:  It's moreso that I see the pointlessness in further research.  I watch how people act, I watch what it does to them, I hear what those around me constantly ramble about in relation to this, and the writing is on the wall to me:  Participation in politics is like participation in an arguement on the Dota forums:  It's just a bunch of horrible toxicity that, in the end, will accomplish nothing, and it's tribalism at it's absolute worst.   Further knowledge isnt very helpful when that knowledge is just as bloody toxic as anything that came before it.

Not to mention... I dont trust any of it anyway.  All the stuff that the media and news sites and whatnot spout out.  Not in the age of things like clickbait titles and general sensationalism.  I may not follow politics, but I've been attached to the Net since there's BEEN a Net, and I've sure as heck seen how the media in a general sense has gotten so very, very much worse, to the point where I just dont find any of it to be truly reliable anymore.  When you feel that you cannot even trust info sources, why would you go to them for that info?  Particularly when it relates to a subject you consider poisonous.  You may find it odd that I make the decisons that I do without doing direct research, but really, seeing how people act and hearing the crap they spout is enough to tell me all I need to know.  Really, the evidence is everywhere.  Heck, just look at political ads on TV (or anywhere else).   It's never about what each candidate can do for the people:  It's about spewing insults at the other candidates, like a bunch of rather dimwitted schoolyard bullies sparring against each other.   It's pathetic.   Why in the world would I ever support anyone like that?  It reminds me of various bullies I used to deal with back in my school years... the idea of supporting pretty much any politician would be like me going up to one of those bullies and thanking them for their services by handing them money.  The very concept baffles me.


In the end, it simply serves no function to me.  Whenever I might help others... politics will never be the road I go down.  It's such a bloody waste.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Wingflier on January 29, 2017, 02:00:39 AM
Quote
Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.
Oh good, he blocked me. At least the virtue signaling won't be directed at me specifically.

Again, if neither candidate is not qualified to be in office (Hillary being a criminal bought and sold by big money and Trump being...well Trump), you have a responsibility not to vote for either of them. Because doing so continues to support a system which no longer HAS YOUR INTERESTS IN MIND.

Nobody is denying that the U.S. political system is broken. Nobody is even denying it! Cyborg wouldn't even deny that. He would just say "We should still vote anyway because blah blah blah virtue signaling blah blah."

Alasdair MacIntyre, an Emeritus Professor of Philosophy at the University of Notre Dame, is on the record on what voters should do in such a situation. He is unequivocal: Voters should reject both candidates. (http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/cant-stand-hillary-or-trump-heres-what-you-must-do)

Here is what he wrote: (http://commonknowledge.dukejournals.org/content/15/3/340.full.pdf)
Quote
When offered a choice between two politically intolerable alternatives, it is important to choose neither. And when that choice is presented in rival arguments and debates that exclude from public consideration any other set of possibilities, it becomes a duty to withdraw from those arguments and debates, so as to resist the imposition of this false choice by those who have arrogated to themselves the power of framing the alternatives.

I recently visited Canada. In Canada political candidates for Presidency get a set amount of money to run with and that's it. They are not allowed to accept donations or bribes from MASSIVE super PACS. It is a merit based system, where candidates win by appealing to the people, not by having the most notoriety and air time. Canada isn't perfect, but a person like Donald Trump NEVER would have won an election there, because there would have been a hundred other alternatives.

In our country, having money is a prerequisite to being a candidate, and therefore most situations are the ones where both candidates are cozying up to the banks and serving the financial interests of corporate entities which quite frankly do not give a shit about you. The idea that you would support this system by voting for either person is insane. You could vote for a 3rd party if it represented your interests with the understanding that they will never win. This isn't even mentioning the other problems with our archaic system such as the electoral college, gerrymandering, and superdelegates, just to name a few. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo)

Hell, the majority people didn't even want either candidate, so the fact that we were forced to vote between them just goes to show that we no longer live in "A Democracy".

This is no surprise to anybody who doesn't have their head in the sand. (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746)



Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on January 29, 2017, 02:14:26 AM
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Again, if neither candidate is not qualified to be in office (Hillary being a criminal bought and sold by big money and Trump being...well Trump), you have a responsibility not to vote for either of them. Because doing so continues to support a system which no longer HAS YOUR INTERESTS IN MIND.

Agreed.

I mean, really, the whole system just seems seriously broken, as you said.  Just... really freaking broken.

There's just no good solution to this sort of thing.   All anyone can do is figure out what they personally believe is best to do, and act on it.  And no choice, wether it be a vote or not voting, will meet with total approval from everyone. 


Ya know, I dont normally ask about stuff like this, but out of sheerest curiosity:   If most people didn't want either candidate... how in the bloody hell did they both end up being candidates in the first place?  It seems so stupidly illogical that even I have to ask.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Mad Rubicant on January 29, 2017, 03:17:00 AM
Oh god why am I entering this thread

So, Misery, in any other election I could get behind your stance. A generic democrat isn't all that different from a generic republican, even if I would vote for the democrat every time. The problem is, our election system has extremely strong incentives against 3rd parties. A great example is 1860, where 40% of the country voted for Lincoln, and he got 59% of the vote and won (and we got a civil war!).

Ya know, I dont normally ask about stuff like this, but out of sheerest curiosity:   If most people didn't want either candidate... how in the bloody hell did they both end up being candidates in the first place?  It seems so stupidly illogical that even I have to ask.
With Hillary, I'm not quite sure how we got her. I wish we had Sanders, but alas. The way we got Donald Trump was the fact that he took the primaries by storm, and then in the general election he told downtrodden working class  people who live in ghost towns that he's going to make everything better for them. And it happens that downtrodden working class live in the traditional swing states, which are the only ones that really matter (I live in coastal California, my vote didn't matter).

With President Hillary, it would have been more of the same, which, while not what I want, is a safe path. And for Trump voters, more of the same is more misery.

President Trump's first week in office has not been normal. He has (and I'm forgetting stuff)
This ignores the long list of stupid, inane, and thuggish things he's done as president-elect before his inauguration.

Also, Donald Trump himself is merely an incompetent Cheetoh. What makes him dangerous is that he has Steve Bannon whispering in his ear, and his speeches and actions have emboldened literal Nazis to come out of the woodwork. I don't think he's advocated for internment camps yet, but he has advocated for a Muslim registry (nevermind that it already exists), and then there's the Muslim ban from today.

Also, we're totally screwed internationally. Completely and utterly screwed. China is preparing for war. International trade could break down (get ready to say goodbye to year-round produce). Trump loves Putin. And a laundry list of other stupidity.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on January 29, 2017, 03:05:09 PM
If we still have an intact political party (instead of a 'keep-the-country-running' party) at the end of this I'll be surprised at their ignorance of the important things.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on January 29, 2017, 03:24:30 PM
Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.

It's like I said:  a vote for EITHER side ends up hurting SOMEONE.  RIght now with things as they are, those two groups seem to be hurting.  If it had been the other side though, it'd just be OTHER groups hurting.  There is no option that doesnt lead to pain.  None.  This, to me, is the very nature of politics; politicians, as a rule, are rather selfish individuals

Two groups? No, far more than two groups. I only gave you the two that you identified with. I completely left out religious minorities, anyone who uses the Internet, immigrants, students, women, our planet/environment, and minorities not enumerated here.

But I would like to know, if Hillary had won, what sort of equal amount of pain would have happened that nullifies voting? I'm genuinely trying to understand why remaining ignorant and not participating is the right answer. You haven't answered why not learning about the world around you and not being educated is a valuable pursuit. Why is it valuable to you to not learn?

In Hitler's Germany, would you have voted? Or would have voting against Hitler also cause pain that would make it a waste to vote? I'm going back to the question of, when do you choose to participate?

I can't imagine four years of this.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on January 29, 2017, 04:12:04 PM
What a wonderful time not to live in the USA. Again. Seriosly, no one envies you for what you get now.
But you brought this on yourself. And no, this has nothing to do with "because people disn't vote". Well not the only reason at least, it does affect the outcome. But anyone who says that Hillary would be better has to be equally blind as the Trump supporters. This has nothing to do with more or less evil. She just throws her stupidity to other subjects. In this case you cannot argue, who would do the less harm. You Americans would be screwed anyway.
Instead you should ask yourself "How did it come to the fact that the only two options we had are two absulutrly idiots?". People complain so many times "the system is broken" but no obe actually does something.
In the end, everyone of you is to blame.

Also, using Hitler analogies here is way over the top.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on January 29, 2017, 06:37:54 PM
I stand by my questions. If the most evil, notorious leader in history is not someone Misery (or anyone else) would vote against, there's really no point in continuing discussing this with them.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on January 29, 2017, 06:58:45 PM
But Trump is not Hitler and I dont see why this question should even exist.
You dont make apoint that way. You go entirely in the wrong direction and no one will take you serious if you say stuff like this.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on January 29, 2017, 07:14:53 PM
But Trump is not Hitler and I dont see why this question should even exist.
You dont make apoint that way. You go entirely in the wrong direction and no one will take you serious if you say stuff like this.

I'm not worried about your powers of deduction here. The reason I bring up the extreme case of a fascist takeover is to see if there is indeed a limit to ignoring democratic participation. If there is no limit, if there is no single person that has existed which would drive someone to participate, the conversation is over. If there is someone who does exist (and using Hitler would be the limit test here, I could also use Joseph Stalin, but I'm guessing that his atrocities are less well-known on this board), the conversation continues as we discover exactly where the line is between participation and not.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on January 29, 2017, 07:30:52 PM
I really would like to say more on this than I can at the moment. Unfortunately my Wlan doesn't work at the monent and I can only type with my mobile phone, which makes it unbearable to type long debates.
So I will gor now say nothing until I get my new router. Its up to Misery if he wants to answer that. I wouldn't actually but thats none of my concern.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on January 29, 2017, 08:26:00 PM
Well, I figured I might as well add the viewpoint of another person with autism (Asperger's Syndrome in this case, which is a high functioning form of autism) and personally I feel that though both the party candidates were pretty awful, it is good to still vote, though of course there is nothing wrong with choosing not to. Even if neither is good, one might be slightly better than the other, then the next set of candidates could have one slightly better than the previous one, repeat enough times and it might even end up good, but even still I would prefer to keep things as good as possible. Misery does have a point about any option being able to hurt somebody, but I wouldn't decide to not make any choices, instead I would try to go with the one I feel would help the most people and hurt the least. Another option would be to go with a third-party candidate, which though they have no chance of winning, one might get enough support to get a little more funding next time, and get a little more support, repeat enough times maybe one could actually stand a chance. Also even if you make things a tiny bit better, or prevent things from getting as bad, even if only a tiny bit less bad, it also leaves a better foundation for next time. However, though personally I would do my research and choose what I feel to be a better option, I feel there should be no hatred towards those who don't, as that is their choice and decision, based on their beliefs, and there is nothing wrong with choosing not to vote. Though admittedly that opinion is likely based largely on my belief in open-mindedness and letting others make their own choices and have their own beliefs without treating them worse because of it, as long as those choices and beliefs don't involve any harm to others. Also I think people should try to be a little more relaxed with this, it seems to be getting closer and closer to a hate-fest, you can disagree with someone, but please try to do it in a nice way, rather than condemning them for having a different opinion, this forum is generally a nice place, and I for one would like to see it kept that way.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on January 30, 2017, 01:36:28 AM
Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.

It's like I said:  a vote for EITHER side ends up hurting SOMEONE.  RIght now with things as they are, those two groups seem to be hurting.  If it had been the other side though, it'd just be OTHER groups hurting.  There is no option that doesnt lead to pain.  None.  This, to me, is the very nature of politics; politicians, as a rule, are rather selfish individuals

Two groups? No, far more than two groups. I only gave you the two that you identified with. I completely left out religious minorities, anyone who uses the Internet, immigrants, students, women, our planet/environment, and minorities not enumerated here.

But I would like to know, if Hillary had won, what sort of equal amount of pain would have happened that nullifies voting? I'm genuinely trying to understand why remaining ignorant and not participating is the right answer. You haven't answered why not learning about the world around you and not being educated is a valuable pursuit. Why is it valuable to you to not learn?

In Hitler's Germany, would you have voted? Or would have voting against Hitler also cause pain that would make it a waste to vote? I'm going back to the question of, when do you choose to participate?

I can't imagine four years of this.

EXACTLY.   What you said at the top there:  Far more than two groups.  There's so much that can go wrong in politics, that when you add the very simple and indisputable fact that politicians are greedy and selfish, and that they basically campaign like salesmen (which is effectively what campaigning IS, selling a product, as the very same techniques are used) rather than, again, showing what they really can do for people.  I've heard so VERY often now that BOTH candidates were freaking awful.  I have no bloody clue WHICH groups would have been hurt under Hillary's rule.  It doesn't MATTER which ones:  THe fact is, various groups would have been hurt.  Perhaps the LGBT and disabled communities wouldn't have... but other groups, not currently hurting, would have simply taken their place.  This is the very nature of this system, when it's effectively controlled by greedy salespeople who seek only higher positions and more screen time.

When both options are godawful, I'm not going to select either.  Not when simply refusing to choose is an option.  It reminds me of, again, another concept associated with sales/marketing (which I'm now going to repeatedly equate to the political election process), which is the concept of "voting with your wallet".  Where if you think a company is bad, awful, nasty, you don't buy their product:  That's how you show your displeasure to them.  And maybe if all the OTHER options in that realm are just as bad... maybe you just get by without that type of product, because you simply don't want to support such nasty, nasty groups doing shady things.  This concept has been effectively drilled permanently into my mind:  Both from my experiences with the game industry (groups like EA and Activision, who I generally refuse to buy from), and also by my father and stepmother, who know *a lot* about sales and related concepts.  To buy something is to support the company selling it... it's a very simple concept.  Everyone knows that.  But look at what happens when people just keep buying things from bad companies simply because they don't know of any other choices:  you get situations like the rampant money-grubbing that affects the gaming industry right now.  People REFUSE to simply refrain from purchasing from the big guys, so the big guys just keep doing all the awful stuff they are doing.

I tend to view politics in the same way.  A political candidate CANNOT reach a major position without support.  It's that simple.  The entire system cannot work without support... this is also simple.  Considering that the entire system is a corrupted, poisonous mess... I'm not going to support it.  Not when I know that ANY vote will hurt someone.  I was not raised by my parents to harm people with my choices.  Something I've always been taught is that sometimes you need to know when to just walk away from something.  There are times to fight, sure, there are times to take action, but sometimes, there's no such thing as the "right" action.  In those cases... in other words, THIS case... I walk away.  As I said, I help people in other ways.   Wether or not you believe this is of course up to you... but it's the simple truth.  It's not something I speak of very much, being as negative as I am, but yes, I do things for people when those things really are necessary.

And in those cases where I help, there IS a good option.  And so, that's the option I choose.  When there is a genuinely good option in a situation, I will not walk away from it, simple as that.  I do not like leaving things unfinished, and I also don't like seeing people hurting in a situation where I can DO something (without then hurting an equal number of people, which is all that voting does, in my view). 

But in politics?  There is no good option.  None.  Both candidates are poisonous:  I don't need deep research to know this.  Hell, LOTS of people know this, and I guarantee you that very few voters REALLY research their choices.  But to many, both sides were so obviously BAD that it became extremely evident that there was no such thing as a good choice.  One of the few things that I do know about politics is that technically, there are more than two parties.  For people that feel that both of the main parties are godawful, they often feel like they have this "duty" to still vote anyway, just because "voting is the thing you do".  So they'll vote for some third party, who even I know will never, ever win... that's such a very simple fact that even I grasp it easily, in politics.  I, personally, do not believe in empty gestures like that.  Again, I don't like things that accomplish nothing, which is exactly what happens in that case.  Why waste my time?  If you were to know me in person, you'd probably see LOTS of examples of this sort of thing... the lack of making empty gestures.  For example, I never engage in small talk, because it doesn't DO anything.  It's just "a thing you do", and the reason is BECAUSE "it's a thing you do".  That's an empty gesture.  I just wont do it, as it makes no sense to me.  Call it an effect of the autism, perhaps... heck if I know.  I just know that it's a personality trait I cannot shake.  It's part of why I'm so very, very bad socially and know very few people.   Hell, ALOT of what socializing I do actually comes from THIS forum.


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Though admittedly that opinion is likely based largely on my belief in open-mindedness and letting others make their own choices and have their own beliefs without treating them worse because of it, as long as those choices and beliefs don't involve any harm to others.

Aye, I agree with this and tend to have the same belief.  Hell, the nature of my blasted condition (or whatever word you want to use for autism, any term is fine by me, I just say "condition" because it's easily understood) and also the nature of, well... the LGBT stuff... kinda means that OF COURSE I'm going to see it that way.   I like to hope that everyone in this place does as well, really.


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Also I think people should try to be a little more relaxed with this, it seems to be getting closer and closer to a hate-fest, you can disagree with someone, but please try to do it in a nice way, rather than condemning them for having a different opinion, this forum is generally a nice place, and I for one would like to see it kept that way.

Ehhh.... I wouldn't say that.  I don't see any hate from anyone here and nothing resembling a full-on argument.  Like a great many topics in this forum, so far, this is just debate.  It seems that we're good at this here.  Heck, I get into random debates with people pretty darn frequently (usually over gaming topics, often with Wingflier), but a proper debate is NOT an argument; there's no bad emotions or dislike anywhere... it's just a good old-fashioned debate.  They can be very interesting.

However, if this DOES devolve into that at any point, I'll simply slam the topic shut.   I really, really doubt it'll go anywhere near that.  That sort of thing seriously just never seems to happen here.  Yeah, there was that gun topic, but I consider that a total fluke.  This is a pretty darn pleasant place really.  There aren't any nasty or mean sorts here.  Heck, I've not met anyone that I dislike in this place, not even one person, and for me that's pretty rare.

Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 30, 2017, 01:41:03 AM
I fundamentally can't understand head-in-sand realities.

Look up "disillusioned" and "apoliticial". You might learn something. Some of us, and I'm guessing Misery is in this same position as I am, simply believe that nothing good can come out of a system that benefits the ones who seek power for the sake of power. The American political system is the poster boy for a completely and utterly sh*tridden catastrophy of a political system, but I can't say I know of many that are much better.

When, out of 300+ million people, a nation comes up with Hillary and Donald...well, do I really need to say anything more than that? We live but a short life and some of us, quite frankly, don't give a flying ¤%/¤ what happens after we're gone because humanity simply isn't worth saving.

Dark? Yes. But apparently incredibly common among people of high intellect, for whatever reason. Depression and disillusion are common ailments of intellectual people.
Humanity disgusts me and an election like this just further cements that fact. There is tons of good in humanity but we are so busy bickering amongst ourselves that we simply don't care what is the best for everyone. As long as humanity has a crushing majority of barely conscious mouth-breathers who think nothing for others and only of themselves, or even stick to stupid, outdate racial and nationalist ideals well ... let's just say the downfall of civilization can't come soon enough.

Humanity could have saved itself if it could just have learned to live in harmony with itself. But we are but instinctual, territorial, greedy animals. So let's just give way to something better. We're done here. Over and out.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on January 30, 2017, 03:40:15 AM
I fundamentally can't understand head-in-sand realities.

Look up "disillusioned" and "apoliticial". You might learn something. Some of us, and I'm guessing Misery is in this same position as I am, simply believe that nothing good can come out of a system that benefits the ones who seek power for the sake of power. The American political system is the poster boy for a completely and utterly sh*tridden catastrophy of a political system, but I can't say I know of many that are much better.

When, out of 300+ million people, a nation comes up with Hillary and Donald...well, do I really need to say anything more than that? We live but a short life and some of us, quite frankly, don't give a flying ¤%/¤ what happens after we're gone because humanity simply isn't worth saving.

Dark? Yes. But apparently incredibly common among people of high intellect, for whatever reason. Depression and disillusion are common ailments of intellectual people.
Humanity disgusts me and an election like this just further cements that fact. There is tons of good in humanity but we are so busy bickering amongst ourselves that we simply don't care what is the best for everyone. As long as humanity has a crushing majority of barely conscious mouth-breathers who think nothing for others and only of themselves, or even stick to stupid, outdate racial and nationalist ideals well ... let's just say the downfall of civilization can't come soon enough.

Humanity could have saved itself if it could just have learned to live in harmony with itself. But we are but instinctual, territorial, greedy animals. So let's just give way to something better. We're done here. Over and out.

Ye gods, that's negative and dark.  Even I'd have trouble producing that.

I thought I was supposed to be the unpleasant one here.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 30, 2017, 04:58:43 AM
It's pretty dark yeah, but I'm more in a state of "I don't really care anymore" than "Oh god this is so depressing" so it doesn't really bother me. Also in contrast it makes all the *good* things humanity occasionally manages to do stand out much more.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Mánagarmr on January 30, 2017, 05:32:00 AM
I stand by my questions. If the most evil, notorious leader in history is not someone Misery (or anyone else) would vote against, there's really no point in continuing discussing this with them.
Your view of Trump is not shared by the entire world. He's a flaming idiot, yes. But he's not Hitler, nor is he even remotely close to the most evil and notorious leader in history.

If you really do believe that then I recommend some actual studying of history.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on January 30, 2017, 01:14:36 PM
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Ehhh.... I wouldn't say that.  I don't see any hate from anyone here and nothing resembling a full-on argument.  Like a great many topics in this forum, so far, this is just debate.  It seems that we're good at this here.  Heck, I get into random debates with people pretty darn frequently (usually over gaming topics, often with Wingflier), but a proper debate is NOT an argument; there's no bad emotions or dislike anywhere... it's just a good old-fashioned debate.  They can be very interesting.

However, if this DOES devolve into that at any point, I'll simply slam the topic shut.   I really, really doubt it'll go anywhere near that.  That sort of thing seriously just never seems to happen here.  Yeah, there was that gun topic, but I consider that a total fluke.  This is a pretty darn pleasant place really.  There aren't any nasty or mean sorts here.  Heck, I've not met anyone that I dislike in this place, not even one person, and for me that's pretty rare.
I'd certainly agree that its working out particularly well so far with how little rulesetting the OP has. I only really have one other thread to compare it to, and that one is on a seperate forum, the OP consists mostly of rules based on previous locked threads failing to retain their chill composure, and has ended up causing the majority of the notable bans there recently.

Here, we've had a fair bit of links and a quite wordy talk on whether not voting is helping or making things worse.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Draco18s on January 30, 2017, 01:55:13 PM
This is unsettling.

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.ppcmgngo3
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on January 30, 2017, 04:25:06 PM
This is unsettling.
Yeah, I think that could be nominated for the "understatement of the year" award. The site seemed to have heavy bias, and I felt was trying to make Trump sound as bad as possible (not that he really needs help saying stuff that sounds bad), so it can't be relied upon much, but even considering that it sounds EXTREMELY bad.
Ehhh.... I wouldn't say that.  I don't see any hate from anyone here and nothing resembling a full-on argument.  Like a great many topics in this forum, so far, this is just debate.  It seems that we're good at this here.  Heck, I get into random debates with people pretty darn frequently (usually over gaming topics, often with Wingflier), but a proper debate is NOT an argument; there's no bad emotions or dislike anywhere... it's just a good old-fashioned debate.  They can be very interesting.

However, if this DOES devolve into that at any point, I'll simply slam the topic shut.   I really, really doubt it'll go anywhere near that.  That sort of thing seriously just never seems to happen here.  Yeah, there was that gun topic, but I consider that a total fluke.  This is a pretty darn pleasant place really.  There aren't any nasty or mean sorts here.  Heck, I've not met anyone that I dislike in this place, not even one person, and for me that's pretty rare.
I am aware this forums is pretty pleasant and I also don't know anybody I don't like here, I was just saying that because of two main reasons 1. The comparisons to Hitler, and 2. My experience that politics can get pretty toxic pretty fast sometimes, and occasionally seems to bring out the worse in people. I wouldn't say there is much of a problem right now, I was just hoping to help reduce the chance of a problem from occurring.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on January 30, 2017, 07:31:32 PM
Sounds stupid enough to be trump, bias or not.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on January 30, 2017, 08:33:06 PM
I've heard so VERY often now that BOTH candidates were freaking awful.  I have no bloody clue WHICH groups would have been hurt under Hillary's rule.  It doesn't MATTER which ones


What?  :o

To buy something is to support the company selling it... it's a very simple concept. 

We're not talking about buying something from the company. The analogy isn't quite right. Would you take a moment to think about that again? The difference is, in a situation where you are buying something, there are three outcomes: you are buying product A, product B, or you go home with nothing. In this situation, millions of people will be forced to live their lives at the behest of a person A or person B. There is no option to avoid both and go home with nothing. The analogy doesn't work.

I also don't like seeing people hurting in a situation where I can DO something (without then hurting an equal number of people, which is all that voting does, in my view).

You haven't described what the alternate universe would be if you had voted someone else. By not voting, you are in fact making a choice. You can't avoid the existence of a decision. That's one of the facts of life. The world turns, whether or not you pull the levers. Your participation- or not- is an active choice. If you are dealt a poker hand, you don't get to decide that the deal never happened. In effect, you folded, and you let the winning hand on the table stand. It's still a choice you made, and you own a part of the consequences.

Both candidates are poisonous:  I don't need deep research to know this.  Hell, LOTS of people know this, and I guarantee you that very few voters REALLY research their choices. 

You "don't need to learn." Yes, you have said this many times. It's no less troubling each time I read it. You have created this oversimplified paradigm where you pretend that you can insulate yourself by staying indoors. It doesn't work like that. By the way, I'm not pushing Hillary. This line of questioning is about voting. In the case of Donald Trump, yeah I think he's a bad guy, but that's not the point here.

they often feel like they have this "duty" to still vote anyway, just because "voting is the thing you do". 

I have never heard that. The duty you might be referring to is to make the best choice with the cards you're dealt for yourself and your country (although, people may change the order of those two entities).

Also, you didn't answer the, "if Hitler were in the running, would you be willing to vote for the other person" question. I'm guessing that you refuse to answer that question, and so I will move on from it. I'm just going to add, I find that a little bit disturbing. It's not a trick question. It's easiest question you could ever get.

I find that a lot of the Hillary hate comes from people who are getting their news from Facebook. Yeah, there's a lot about her to dislike. She's not my first choice. But comparing her to Donald Trump, I would surely like to understand why it's a wash. Why are they equally bad?

A quick note, multiple people have accused me of comparing Donald Trump to Hitler. Never happened. Please use the quotation feature before you make accusations. Also, you should understand that the Hitler topic is there as a comparison. It's used as a limit test to see how far the intellectually hollow argument of not participating actually goes. It's to see if there is ever a point at which voting means something. I'm using it as the absurd. But even with a softball like this, I can't get a straight answer, which is really disturbing to me. Anyone who knows anything about history, millions of people including Jews and persons with disabilities were killed. They were poisoned, gassed, incinerated, [email protected], tortured. But people can't even say that they would vote against that? I don't understand any eventuality in which a person voluntarily lets this happen because they are sticking to some dishonest argument they have built up in their heads. It's troubling.

When I make decisions, I have two sieves that I put into action. The first is, character of conscience. I look at an issue and decide, what is the most right thing to do? Even given a bad hand with multiple undesirable solutions, what's the best move from a position of conscience? I have a strong sense of self and justice. To me, living is something we can all agree on and as a common point of reference for what justice means.

The second is, logic. I'm a programmer. I make my living writing sieves. I know how to take large issues and chop them down into tiny pieces, analyze them, research what I don't know, create algorithms and assemble it into the whole. It's my job and my nature.

Together, with those two sieves, I can decide.

After all this, looking at people's arguments, I think what I see is this: compared to the sieves and the order that I use, I think other people are using a different set of rules. It looks like something very subjective, something like a sense of revulsion and dissociation. I'm also seeing a little bit of illness in some of these comments. When you look at external versus internal locus of control, it reminds me of where a person feels that the world around them is what it is irregardless of their participation. There's no connection for them between the world in which they live and their choices in it. In any event, subjective and personal issues rather than a set of rules that could be used by a wider group.

I don't hope to convince anyone that participating is important. Most of the people here are too old to change without wanting to or doing the real work that involves. The one tiny hope I see in Misery's comments (and the best thing that I thought he said) was about how problem-solving would be about coming together and trying to find the best solution. It's the mindset of children, and I mean that in a good way. It's the way we think before we are old enough to become bitter, comprehend politics, become depressed or develop illness, before we are hurt over and over again by life itself. In some people, when they come out the other side of that, it's just too late to go back. But, if there is a chance for Misery to care enough, I would think that particular statement is the one to build off of. I would start there.

I don't object to the point that money in politics is overwhelmingly counterproductive or that politicians today leave much to be desired. Completely agree on that point. But I do think that letting the mold grow on the house and pretending it's not there is not very effective. If you believe that money in politics is hurting our country, doing nothing isn't going to fix it. It's just simple inertia. I was a Bernie fan. I even read his book that just came out in November. Although, having read his book and listened to him in person, I think that a lot of his audience missed the boat. Maybe caught up a little bit too much in the rally part of things without a grasp on the political part of things. Bernie is very much about making the best out of what you have. Not because you are settling, but because progress happens in increments. It's hard work. There's a lot of losing involved. But, along the way, in increments, it can get better even in the face of overwhelming odds.

Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Draco18s on January 30, 2017, 08:40:51 PM
Yeah, I think that could be nominated for the "understatement of the year" award. The site seemed to have heavy bias, and I felt was trying to make Trump sound as bad as possible (not that he really needs help saying stuff that sounds bad), so it can't be relied upon much, but even considering that it sounds EXTREMELY bad.

Given that the bullet points they have are all pulled from some other sources (Fox News being one!) and each of the links I looked at went into greater depth than the thing I linked.  To me it didn't look like they inflated the importance of the things they listed in the bullets, just summarized.

So while there may be some bias to the site the events its pointing to are being reported other places, so any bias can be filtered with a reading of the original news sources.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on January 30, 2017, 09:48:03 PM

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What? 

Okay, that quote isn't working quite right for me, but whatever.  The bit that you asked "what" to stands.  What I meant is, it doesn't matter which group it is that is getting hurt:  SOMEONE IS STILL GETTING HURT.  I'm not going to go "Oh, okay... It's just THOSE guys getting hurt now.  I don't care about those guys, so that's fine".  It doesn't matter to me which specific group is getting damaged by something.... they're all people, and as far as I'm concerned, all equally important.   That's why I say "it doesn't matter which group it is".  I'm not going to jump out of the woodwork JUST because Group A is getting hurt, but NOT if Group B is getting hurt.   My point is:  SOMEONE, somewhere, will get hurt from either choice.  EITHER choice.   I suspect here though is simply a case of me not phrasing things correctly; as an autistic individual I do this *frequently*, so be aware of that when trying to deal with me.


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We're not talking about buying something from the company. The analogy isn't quite right. Would you take a moment to think about that again? The difference is, in a situation where you are buying something, there are three outcomes: you are buying product A, product B, or you go home with nothing. In this situation, millions of people will be forced to live their lives at the behest of a person A or person B. There is no option to avoid both and go home with nothing. The analogy doesn't work.

.....What?  Yes it does.

Go read what I wrote again.  The analogy was based on a NORMAL business transaction in a typical industry in this country. I was thinking like, I dunno, buying a game, or a cleaning product, or whatever.  I daresay that there IS, in fact, an option to simply not buy the game/product in question.... you will not A: starve or B: catch on fire if you do not choose a game or cleaning product to buy.  MOST purchases in this country are like that:  Not stuff we MUST have to survive.  Something like food, yes.  But even then, some people grow their own.   So my analogy wasn't related to something where if you don't buy it, you are doomed. 

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You haven't described what the alternate universe would be if you had voted someone else.

What would be the point?  I could have voted for some third party that we all KNOW would not have won.  Even I, with my limited political knowledge, know full well that third parties *never* win, and not only that, don't stand even the foggiest ghost of a chance of winning.  Why in the world would I waste my time going and voting for them?  Knowing that the MAIN candidates were bad, bad, bad means I sure as heck wasn't voting for THEM.  By your logic, the only other answer would be to vote for a third party.  But reread my bit about "empty gestures".... I don't like doing that, and refuse to.  If I'd have to vote for a third party to make a vote that isn't terrible, then I'm just going to say "screw it" instead, which is what I did. 

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You "don't need to learn." Yes, you have said this many times.

This is true, but I am getting the impression you're not grasping what I mean by it whatsoever.   In this case, I specifically said that I don't need research to know that both parties are bad.  That DOESNT mean "I don't learn anything".  It means that the writing on the wall is SO freakishly obvious that further research IS NOT NECESSARY.    I don't need to know the exact numerical value of their "badness" level.  All I need to know, is that they are bad.  And that evidence is so totally EVERYWHERE that why in the world would I "research" it?   It's already been screamed at me from every corner at all times.  I've heard it from my family, I've seen it on the news, I've seen it on the Net, I've seen and heard it EVERYWHERE.   I don't need to do any research to gain info that I, in fact, already have:  That both candidates are no good.

And beyond that, some of it is just very simple logic.  Like my understanding of the nature of politicians, and why the political system is so bloody broken.  You don't need "research" to generate logic.  With some things.... you need only observe a bit.  If I see some guy beating his face against a tree, I do not need to then go to the local library, pull out a stack of books, and research wether he is, in fact, beating his face against a tree.  He made it pretty damn obvious that he was and I could see just by looking.  It's like that with politics, to me:  It's just so very, VERY obviously toxic and bad that research is utterly pointless.  The only thing that I could possibly learn is "it's even more poisonous than I thought".  All I have to do is see basic news on some site, or even just watch/listen to people argue about political topics to know these things.   

And since you mentioned facebook:  I don't use it.  Or twitter.  Or any social media.  I have no idea if you think I do or not, but I figured I may as well say so.

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Also, you didn't answer the, "if Hitler were in the running, would you be willing to vote for the other person" question. I'm guessing that you refuse to answer that question, and so I will move on from it. I'm just going to add, I find that a little bit disturbing. It's not a trick question. It's easiest question you could ever get.

......Wait, what?  That WASNT a rhetorical question?

....Why in the numerous hells would anyone vote for Hitler?  Why... is this even an actual question being asked?  I know I'm negative as all hell, but surely you don't think I'm THAT messed up.  Of course I wouldn't vote for that murderous nightmare of a total maniac.  Again, why is this even a question?   This is making less and less sense.  "Not voting" does not equal "voting for Hitler". 

I mean, just.... what.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on January 30, 2017, 10:05:20 PM
ven that the bullet points they have are all pulled from some other sources (Fox News being one!) and each of the links I looked at went into greater depth than the thing I linked.  To me it didn't look like they inflated the importance of the things they listed in the bullets, just summarized.

So while there may be some bias to the site the events its pointing to are being reported other places, so any bias can be filtered with a reading of the original news sources.
I was aiming to acknowledge that when I said
but even considering that it sounds EXTREMELY bad.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Draco18s on January 30, 2017, 10:39:30 PM
I was aiming to acknowledge that when I said
but even considering that it sounds EXTREMELY bad.

*Salute*

In other (is it?) news,
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/us/politics/trump-immigration-ban-memo.html?_r=0
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-emails-rnc-reince-priebus-white-house-server-548191
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on January 31, 2017, 04:56:46 PM
In other news, "the cyber (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170130/13070936591/trump-orders-cyber-to-be-fixed-next-sixty-days.shtml)" must be fixed asap, essentially because he said so.
Cyber is not a word, it is a prefix.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Draco18s on January 31, 2017, 06:26:32 PM
Not to mention:
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(ii)   Within 30 days, a preliminary draft of the Plan to defeat ISIS shall be submitted to the President by the Secretary of Defense.

(iii)  The Plan shall include:

(A)  a comprehensive strategy and plans for the defeat of ISIS;
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on January 31, 2017, 07:09:11 PM
Not to mention:
Quote
(ii)   Within 30 days, a preliminary draft of the Plan to defeat ISIS shall be submitted to the President by the Secretary of Defense.

(iii)  The Plan shall include:

(A)  a comprehensive strategy and plans for the defeat of ISIS;
I assumed this was a joke.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on January 31, 2017, 07:32:48 PM
No, it fits perfectly fine into his series of dumb ideas. Joke does not exist with the current white house.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on January 31, 2017, 07:59:15 PM
If it would be easy to find a solution to the ISIS crisis, someone would already have done that.
This is obvious to everyone. But Trump believes that just writing "Do this in one month" makes everything trie.
He runs his presidancy like his companies. Thats what I said from the start: Trump is a salesman. All he is interested is money. He is nit fit for presidency. But its not my country, so I dont care. Ill do care however about the muslim ban. Thats none of my buisness what your country does with immigrants and you can decline them if you want.
However, it affects our country as well. In the current situation a short tempered decision like this has a big impact. Because of ISIS there are many regugees. I dont have to explain this to anyone, everyone is aware of this. The problem is, if the USA refuse immigrants to enter their country, even worse, they deny denizenship of people that already live there, probably since years, where do you think all this people will turn? Yes, Germany again. And I dont want to sound racist but we cannot afford any more. We are anready at our limit and still have to let more in. Otherwise everyone throws a temper tantrum and starts a flame war how racist Germany is. We dont have the money or resources to provide help for refugees. We still suffer from the results of two world wars. We still suffer from the emergency fundings for greece. How shall we pull this up our sleeves?
This plays however again in Trumps greedy hands (which aligns with his salesman persona). If we have no money to support refugees that WE dont turn down, we have to loan money from other countries. And I bet Trump cannot wait to get his greedy hands on a dept check, so he has Germany in his hands.

Everything else is not my concern, thats your problem, but THIS is.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Draco18s on January 31, 2017, 08:27:13 PM
I assumed this was a joke.

Its not (https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/28/plan-defeat-islamic-state-iraq).
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on January 31, 2017, 08:32:11 PM
While I'm not trying to derail things into other politics, isn't part of germany's problems EU-related, vampire?
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on January 31, 2017, 09:16:30 PM
Your link just tells me to sign up for something.

It is. To be fair, the reason we have so many problems with immigrants is NOT the US. Thats because of our politics. In the EU and especially Germany we are more open to new immigrants than the US. I could now try to quote the entire law paragraph but what it basically says is that civil people that are hunted because of war, religious or other discriminating reasons can always come to our country and stay.

The consequence of this is of course if another country suddenly decides to close it borders, all these people will now come to us.

I didn't say I blame the Us. I simply said, that this affects us as well.
I've also heard somewhere but I have to confirm it, that Trump wants to add more taxes or whatever on imported resources/products. If this is true, this would affect us too. Germany is already one of the biggest exports countries in the world and the US is one of our main trading partners. You are dependant of us and we depend on you.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on January 31, 2017, 09:52:34 PM
they're all people, and as far as I'm concerned, all equally important.   That's why I say "it doesn't matter which group it is".  I'm not going to jump out of the woodwork JUST because Group A is getting hurt, but NOT if Group B is getting hurt.

No, it's not all equally important. Everything isn't the same as everything else. When normal citizens are at risk of dying, everything is not the same.

Go read what I wrote again.  The analogy was based on a NORMAL business transaction in a typical industry in this country. I was thinking like, I dunno, buying a game, or a cleaning product, or whatever.  I daresay that there IS, in fact, an option to simply not buy the game/product in question.... you will not A: starve or B: catch on fire if you do not choose a game or cleaning product to buy.

It's still not a correct analogy. In your business transaction, you can choose not to buy the product. In the real world, when we are talking about elections, you are going to receive a president whether or not you voted for it. You can't avoid that. And as I tried to explain at length, your options are: don't vote, vote. Either way, the number at the end of the day will reflect your behavior in regards to one person or another. And the results will affect everyone. You cannot avoid having your behavior impact the scenario. It's nothing like purchasing a videogame.

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You "don't need to learn." Yes, you have said this many times.

This is true, but I am getting the impression you're not grasping what I mean by it whatsoever.   In this case, I specifically said that I don't need research to know that both parties are bad.  ...  I don't need to do any research to gain info that I, in fact, already have:  That both candidates are no good.

I understood what you said. You have created concept boxes of what politics are, some analogies and oversimplifications to avoid learning, which you keep saying that you don't have to do. And that really floors me. I'm always trying to learn. I read all the time. Books even! Not Facebook feeds! I will happily tell anyone "I don't know" about topics that… I don't know. I can't stress enough that voluntary ignorance is not a virtue. It's not something to brag about. Telling everyone that you don't need to know because you already know sounds like a Yogi Berra quote.


It's like that with politics, to me:  It's just so very, VERY obviously toxic and bad that research is utterly pointless.  The only thing that I could possibly learn is "it's even more poisonous than I thought".  All I have to do is see basic news on some site, or even just watch/listen to people argue about political topics to know these things.   

You have become an expert that no longer needs to be aware of your neighbors or the country you live in because of your emotional reaction to the topic? This is not learning. It's reacting. I'm going to guess that your sensitivities to the behavior of those around you (especially what you have already said so far) was quickly followed by the defense mechanism you have constructed around learning.



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Also, you didn't answer the, "if Hitler were in the running, would you be willing to vote for the other person" question. I'm guessing that you refuse to answer that question, and so I will move on from it. I'm just going to add, I find that a little bit disturbing. It's not a trick question. It's easiest question you could ever get.

......Wait, what?  That WASNT a rhetorical question?

....Why in the numerous hells would anyone vote for Hitler?  Why... is this even an actual question being asked?  I know I'm negative as all hell, but surely you don't think I'm THAT messed up.  Of course I wouldn't vote for that murderous nightmare of a total maniac.  Again, why is this even a question?   This is making less and less sense.  "Not voting" does not equal "voting for Hitler". 

I mean, just.... what.

That's not the question I asked. The question clearly asks you, would you cast an opposition vote if you knew Hitler was running? Would you vote for the other person?

===
Also, I can't vouch for whether it's real or not, but it certainly is amusing: @roguePOTUSstaff
You can go into the list of persons that that account is following on twitter and you can get the alleged alternative accounts for the science agencies that were silenced by Trump.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Draco18s on January 31, 2017, 09:53:28 PM
Your link just tells me to sign up for something.

Mine?
It goes to whitehouse.gov

Specifically to Briefing Room > Presidential Actions > Presidential Memoranda > "Presidential Memorandum Plan to Defeat the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria"
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on January 31, 2017, 10:11:30 PM
I could now read it. First time it just told me to register/log in.
So Trump truly thinks that in a miracle someone suddenly has an idea to defeat ISIS that no one had begore. Genius.

Cyborg, I dont see where you are going with this. Misery basically just said that he wouldn't vote Hitler. And he also implied he wouldnt vote at all. That answers your question: Misery stays to his concept. Just drop it already.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on January 31, 2017, 10:35:28 PM
I could now read it. First time it just told me to register/log in.
So Trump truly thinks that in a miracle someone suddenly has an idea to defeat ISIS that no one had begore. Genius.

Cyborg, I dont see where you are going with this. Misery basically just said that he wouldn't vote Hitler. And he also implied he wouldnt vote at all. That answers your question: Misery stays to his concept. Just drop it already.

Misery can choose to not answer the question. But the question remains unanswered.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2017, 01:16:32 AM
No, it's not all equally important. Everything isn't the same as everything else. When normal citizens are at risk of dying, everything is not the same.

Actually, when they're at risk of dying, it's even MORE the same than it otherwise would be.  Why?  Because a life is a life:  When it comes to different groups of people, I'm not going to say "Well Group A is SO much more worth it than those jerks at Group B".  I know MOST people do this, which yet again is that concept of tribalism, but I could never bring myself to make such a choice.  Thus, my stance:  There is no good choice.  If a vote will *always* hurt someone, I will not vote.   There isn't any fourth option to help people, like, I dunno, summoning Batman or Superman, so not voting it is.    When the choice is effectively between "horrible alien deathray" and "giant wall of machineguns", I'm.... just going to leave.  Thanks, but no thanks. 


Quote
It's still not a correct analogy. In your business transaction, you can choose not to buy the product. In the real world, when we are talking about elections, you are going to receive a president whether or not you voted for it. You can't avoid that. And as I tried to explain at length, your options are: don't vote, vote. Either way, the number at the end of the day will reflect your behavior in regards to one person or another. And the results will affect everyone. You cannot avoid having your behavior impact the scenario. It's nothing like purchasing a videogame.

Hm, it is true:  You're going to get some stupid president no matter what you do.  However, I would not get the president *I* personally chose, because it's not up to me:  It's up to a bunch of shrieking jackals that spend damn near all of their "research" time just screaming at each other.  Again, I'm not going to join that mess.  Though, after having looked stuff up, even THAT isn't quite right:  It seems that the popular vote, as in, the ACTUAL majority count, went to Hillary... not Trump.  So... he was chosen ANYWAY due to what I can only assume is a MASSIVELY screwed up system.  If that's even POSSIBLE... what in the seven hells is the point in the first place?  This is on TOP of the question of "how did such an unfit pair of individuals become the only possible choices".   It's completely ridiculous.  Not only do I not like empty gestures, as I've stated, but I also don't like things that make so little sense that they actually go backwards into anti-sense.  Which is what this is.   Why sit there and attempt to operate a machine that is A: clearly broken, and B: likely to simply shoot fish all over the place when you push a button that says it will, I dunno, print a greeting card?  Yes I'm lazy with the analogies today, but due to the sheer ridiculous derp of the situation, that one absolutely fits.

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You have created concept boxes of what politics are

Hm, you  misunderstand me after all.   I didn't create mere concept boxes for politics.  I created compiled knowledge/experience boxes related to humanity in general.  As someone who takes zero active part in society, I have the very, very rare ability to see it from the outside.  In addition, I've been on the wrong end of the sword..... so many times in the past.  I know how people think, I know how bad they can often get, but more than anything else, I know how blasted DUMB they are, and I also know how far that tribal instinct goes.  I understand how people BEHAVE, and how they think (and have had ALOT of opportunities in my life to prove that).  That knowledge is how I used to get jobs, back when I actually used to need them.  When considered within the context of A: society and B: typical human behavior, habits, and reasoning, it's freakishly obvious that politics CANNOT be anything other than poisonous.  As in, it's utterly impossible for it to be otherwise.  It's always ALWAYS going to be filled with people that are out for themselves, in a system that's basically designed around swaying votes by duping as many people as possible.  By making yourself sound so utterly amaaaaaaazing that you get the damn job even if you're the biggest damn fool ever.  Again, this is not a system designed around the idea of telling people what you can do for them, and then actually doing it with their best interests in mind.  That would NOT be poisonous, and non-poisonous is impossible.  This is a system that at it's deepest core, is about power and control, and puffing yourself up to the the alpha of the pack, and I think you know that as well as I do.  On the occaision that you actually get someone that SERIOUSLY isn't in it for themselves... chances are, they aint making it too far, because the true politician-types know all too well how to rip and tear, not caring who they hurt...  You need that kind of nasty mindset to do that, and the person-who-actually-cares doesn't have that, and cannot compete.

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I'm going to guess that your sensitivities to the behavior of those around you (especially what you have already said so far) was quickly followed by the defense mechanism you have constructed around learning.

I don't actually understand what this means.

Quote
That's not the question I asked. The question clearly asks you, would you cast an opposition vote if you knew Hitler was running? Would you vote for the other person?

Ah, I see what you meant now.

However, I don't think it's going to help your side of the argument.

Why?

Because in an election situation, the voter in question knows not to vote for Hitler BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW HOW EVIL HE IS... this is why you are able to even pose this question.  Trump and Hillary are not like Hitler: They're not people that have been pulled out of a history that we have already seen the outcome of.  We don't KNOW what major events might transpire during the next 4 to 8 years, yet looking back on Hitler, we KNOW that he would bring about the Holocaust.    But THIS election?  As with most, all I see is "two total idiots/jerks/morons/bullies/whatever".  Neither is good.  And, being unable to outright see into the future to spot which one is going to release the army of flying monkeys, there is no clear choice to make at all.  Just lots of gibberish flying in all directions.  So, your analogy cannot apply here.

Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 01, 2017, 03:34:35 AM
*germans are racists*
Hey, you could do what Sweden does. We take in every refugee ever, even people who aren't actually refugees. All because we have to "look good". We can't support even half of these people and already we have ghettos forming, crime is on the rise and integration has taken a huge plummet since the formation of those closed societies.

But you know. We look good?
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 01, 2017, 03:37:35 AM
Also, Misery, are you sure you don't agree with my views of politics? It sure as hell look that way :P
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2017, 04:16:09 AM
Also, Misery, are you sure you don't agree with my views of politics? It sure as hell look that way :P

If your views can effectively be summed up with "Bah, everything sucks and this is all really stupid", then I can probably agree with them, yes.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 01, 2017, 04:38:23 AM
Also, Misery, are you sure you don't agree with my views of politics? It sure as hell look that way :P
If your views can effectively be summed up with "Bah, everything sucks and this is all really stupid", then I can probably agree with them, yes.
That's pretty close. Mine's a bit broader on the scope of humanity, but overall, yes.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Wingflier on February 01, 2017, 10:38:38 AM
What Cyborg doesn't seem to understand is that whatever candidate you vote for, Trump or Clinton, you're still supporting a corrupt system.

Even if you're voting for "the lesser of two evils", which Cyborg wouldn't even deny, you're still supporting evil.

So are you supporting evil in the form of a raging, bigheaded, megalomaniac, or a criminal supported in large part by criminal organizations; a career politician who can not even deny that she will do and say whatever necessary in order to advance her political goals. This not even mentioning the fact that she only became the "Democratic" candidate through a rigged election which caused the leader of the Democratic party, Wasserman Schultz, to be fired in July. She shouldn't have even been the nominee.

The whole "But Trump is so much worse than Hillary" is so obvliously missing the point, it's impressive.

Even if Trump were infinitely worse than Hillary (I'm not convinced that he is), Hillary is still a god damn awful candidate, and I don't even think most Democrats would deny this.

Again, even if the stakes were actual Hitler vs. Hitlerly Clinton, I would vote for neither. A better question in that situation would be, how did our political system become so corrupt and so apathetic towards the needs of the people that these became the only two viable options?

And the answer to that question is CERTAINLY not to continue supporting it. There is no universe where I would participate in this system, and a hundred Cyborgs with their appeals to Patriotism and miniature mouse-sized violins could change that.

Hell, I use medicaid. Obamacare was a Godsend for me. I have a disease that is slowly crippling and warping my skeleton, leaving me in immense pain and completely debilitated unless I continuously take this medicine that is so expensive, it would be difficult to afford it on a Doctor's income. There's no way I could pay for it on my own merits.

Even knowing how hard Trump was going to try and destroy Obamacare, there was still no universe that I would vote for Hillary just to save myself. No way, not happening.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 01, 2017, 12:51:48 PM
*germans are racists*
Hey, you could do what Sweden does. We take in every refugee ever, even people who aren't actually refugees. All because we have to "look good". We can't support even half of these people and already we have ghettos forming, crime is on the rise and integration has taken a huge plummet since the formation of those closed societies.

But you know. We look good?
I know this was sarcasm but still: Germany does not do this to look good but to help people.
But you cannot help people if you don't have the money to support them.
Hell, even now we are already at the edge, I hear every week that some refugee cams/asyl homes have been attacked by people or someone set fire. I hear everyday from protests. The situation is already really tight and it does not need much more to escalate.
And it does not help that we had a terroirist attack in Berlin, something that never happened before to us. We knew it could happen anytime, but when it happens it is still a shock.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 01, 2017, 02:16:20 PM
There wasn't a hint of sarcasm in there. This is literally what Sweden is doing atm. All because our government has a completely deluded need to "appear like a humanitarian nation" internationally.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 01, 2017, 03:05:41 PM
No, the sarcasm was obviously that Germany should do this as well. But no country should do this.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Mánagarmr on February 01, 2017, 03:11:35 PM
No, the sarcasm was obviously that Germany should do this as well. But no country should do this.
Fair enough. Yes, that is the conclusion. No one should, but Sweden is really busy doing it.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on February 01, 2017, 04:16:46 PM
By making yourself sound so utterly amaaaaaaazing that you get the damn job even if you're the biggest damn fool ever.
I have one quick correction to make, in what I have seen, generally they seem to care more about making their opponents sound as horrible as possible, after all, why convince people you are a good choice when instead you can convince them that all the others are horrible choices, it is much easier that way. (that was sarcasm) Honestly I would prefer if they focused on telling us why we should vote for them rather than why we shouldn't vote for the other guy.

Ah, I see what you meant now.

However, I don't think it's going to help your side of the argument.

Why?

Because in an election situation, the voter in question knows not to vote for Hitler BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW HOW EVIL HE IS... this is why you are able to even pose this question.  Trump and Hillary are not like Hitler: They're not people that have been pulled out of a history that we have already seen the outcome of.  We don't KNOW what major events might transpire during the next 4 to 8 years, yet looking back on Hitler, we KNOW that he would bring about the Holocaust.    But THIS election?  As with most, all I see is "two total idiots/jerks/morons/bullies/whatever".  Neither is good.  And, being unable to outright see into the future to spot which one is going to release the army of flying monkeys, there is no clear choice to make at all.  Just lots of gibberish flying in all directions.  So, your analogy cannot apply here.
I have to agree with you in that, we have no idea how bad either of them would end up being. Also, I had no problem with people not voting, but now I feel I have a better idea why they might not vote from this discussion, which is kind of interesting. (when it isn't just sheer laziness at least, which is probably the only real reason at least a few people who don't vote have, but now I am learning various other reasons they would not vote, rather than just knowing that there are various other reasons they may not vote)
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Draco18s on February 01, 2017, 04:55:51 PM
Well then.

https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/826894308661932032/video/1
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on February 01, 2017, 08:35:14 PM
The fact that Misery cannot state quite easily and unequivocally that he would vote against Hitler- actually place a vote in an election- ends my conversation with Misery. I find it sick. Easiest question in the world.

In regards to laziness, there might be some of that running around, also. Can't be sure.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: WolfWhiteFire on February 01, 2017, 09:49:03 PM
The fact that Misery cannot state quite easily and unequivocally that he would vote against Hitler- actually place a vote in an election- ends my conversation with Misery. I find it sick. Easiest question in the world.

In regards to laziness, there might be some of that running around, also. Can't be sure.
It kind of seems to me that Misery just doesn't feel like answering such a (no offense intended)ridiculous question that doesn't really prove anything, as it would need to take place in completely different and incredibly unlikely circumstances, plus Misery didn't even understand the question until the last comment he addressed to you, or he just figured the answer was pretty obvious.
Though of course I can't say for certain any of those are the reasons.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Logorouge on February 01, 2017, 09:59:35 PM
The fact that Misery cannot state quite easily and unequivocally that he would vote against Hitler- actually place a vote in an election- ends my conversation with Misery. I find it sick. Easiest question in the world.
What I find really sick, is that anyone would consider wasting time voting in an election where Hitler is a candidate instead of actively working at subduing the monster.
But hey, voting duty above all, right? ::)
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: TheVampire100 on February 01, 2017, 10:38:22 PM
The fact that Misery cannot state quite easily and unequivocally that he would vote against Hitler- actually place a vote in an election- ends my conversation with Misery. I find it sick. Easiest question in the world.

In regards to laziness, there might be some of that running around, also. Can't be sure.
Why does this not surprise me at all?
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2017, 10:48:33 PM
The fact that Misery cannot state quite easily and unequivocally that he would vote against Hitler- actually place a vote in an election- ends my conversation with Misery. I find it sick. Easiest question in the world.

In regards to laziness, there might be some of that running around, also. Can't be sure.

NOW you're getting a bit close to being a bit insulting this time.  As a moderator, consider this a small warning.  Please don't make me have to DO mod stuff here.  There's no reason for this sort of thing to go so far.  I'd rather not have to lock a topic or take any other actions that don't involve stomping bots.  But I will if I need to, so let's take it down a notch.  Normal debate only, please.

And as to the answer to your question, the answer that I apparently am not getting forth very well, well.... please see Logo's post above mine.

Why would mere VOTING be enough of a solution to freaking Hitler?  If you're up against such a vile force (and you actually are fully aware of that level of evil and his capabilities and intentions)... you need more than some silly ballots to make sure the problem is dealt with, I think.  You think a guy like that is simply going to play by the rules if he LOSES?  I think not.  Voting wouldn't be ENOUGH.   I mean, seriously.   And hell, in that situation, voting AT ALL would probably be a bloody horrible idea.  What do you think happens to the ones (and the families of the ones) that voted against if someone like that WINS?  No, you gotta stop it at the source before it ever gets that far.  The guy was a freaking monster.  Were he to resurface due to some foul magic, he would need to be dealt with accordingly.  Not by.... voting.  The very idea is ridiculous.  You may as well try to stop The Joker by asking politely for him to stop.


But hey, voting duty above all, right?

Aye, this has always been a part of my problem with the typical viewpoint of the "you have a DUTY" type.  Nobody ever stops to think if it will ACTUALLY accomplish anything, and also never stops to think if there may be OTHER, better options that could be chosen to help people.   They often hear the word duty, and it's like some sort of switch of glowing self-importance is set off.  I've had conversations like this one before, and they often go the same way.  And what always REALLY gets me is that the idea of doing things like, I dunno, HELPING PEOPLE DIRECTLY is often seen as WAY less important than the arbitrary voting process in a broken system that functons about as well as Windows 10 on a bad day.   People could go DO something for someone.  But no, instead, the voting lets them feel like they've accomplished something without having to REALLY do much (hell, you can do it with a couple of clicks nowadays, I'd bet).  Or for the non-lazy sort, it just outright OBSCURES things.  They COULD go help someone, and maybe at other times they would... BUT HOLY CRAPSTICKS, gotta have PRIORITIES, gotta go vote, that's SO much more important!   I've known people IRL that have seen things in EXACTLY that manner, and it's one of the reasons why I have such disdain for the system.

I rather get the impression here, too, that I could give a thousand direct examples of my having done such things to directly help people, but... it wouldn't matter.  Because I didn't throw my coin into that busted machine that's supposed to do something but instead just farts out bees.  And THAT, to me, is a huge part of the problem with politics.  It's not JUST poisonous:  It skews peoples' viewpoints of other things that may be so much more important.  They cant see what's right in front of them because OMG POLITICS. 
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2017, 10:50:02 PM
The fact that Misery cannot state quite easily and unequivocally that he would vote against Hitler- actually place a vote in an election- ends my conversation with Misery. I find it sick. Easiest question in the world.

In regards to laziness, there might be some of that running around, also. Can't be sure.
Why does this not surprise me at all?

Which part?
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Cyborg on February 01, 2017, 11:34:16 PM
It's well within the rules to say that I find your comment to be sick. If it's not within the rules, please go on ahead and find the terms of service that say I cannot judge your comments as being sick.

If I were cussing you out, call you names, whatever, I can understand. But I get the point that if you want to take advantage of your moderator privilege, you could. You can threaten people you don't like, right? Anyways, as soon as I can find the ignore button, I'll happily turn your comments off.

Edit: Successfully ignored, no need for instruction anymore. Thanks and bye.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2017, 11:46:30 PM
.....Did you even READ any of what was just posted?  You didn't, did you?  Are you THAT set on this that you cant accept that maybe there might be a bit of a hole in your logic? 

What part of "no I'm not going to freaking vote for freaking Hitler" isn't making sense, Cyborg?  How many times do I have to say it?

And who is threatening who?   Did you actually think I was going to ban you?  *sigh*   This is yet another reason I don't like politics.  It causes people in your position to start making assumptions about others around them.  I'm not going to DO anything to you.  That you actually thought I would.... that almost IS insulting.   What I'll DO is lock the TOPIC to prevent things from going bonkers, not ban anyone.  That's it.   Seriously, Cyborg...  Look, I understand negativity more than well enough to grasp some of your feelings on this matter, and God knows I'm unpleasant as all heck half the time myself and aint in much position to do that much lecturing, but surely you can see that this has gotten more than a bit ridiculous.   And I can tell you this, simply hitting Ignore on anyone that doesn't instantly agree with you on things isn't a good way to handle something like this.   If that's going to be your response to any debate.... like the thing with Wingflier, too... it'd probably be best if you considered refraining from further debates in the future.  Not that I'm actually going to STOP you, mind you... but do you really want to be going through this over and over like this?  Because it's gonna happen again, if you keep reacting like this.  You're gonna just end up with a pile of people on ignore, in situations that absolutely did not call for it, simply because you couldn't deal with the debate PROPERLY.   Seriously:  There's no reason to act like that.


However, the choice is up to you.   Know this though:  The only thing that ignoring me, or anyone else, is going to do is.... nothing.  I know people see that as the end-all be-all of forum control, but in reality it usually just causes piles of confusion during conversations, as people genuinely aren't even aware that their messages aren't being seen by someone (and as others that are also around aren't aware of it too). 
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Aklyon on February 01, 2017, 11:48:51 PM
Honestly, if anything gets to the point of 'Would you vote for hitler or not.', the question isn't whatever huge wall of text you two will come up with next, its 'How did he get so much support to be a legit option?'

Because there would clearly be something wrong, and it wouldn't be apathetic outlooks on politics.
Title: Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
Post by: Misery on February 01, 2017, 11:55:01 PM
Honestly, if anything gets to the point of 'Would you vote for hitler or not.', the question isn't whatever huge wall of text you two will come up with next, its 'How did he get so much support to be a legit option?'

Because there would clearly be something wrong, and it wouldn't be apathetic outlooks on politics.

Aye, that's true.  But good luck explaining that in a situation like this.


Anyway, this really HAS gone too far:  For now, I'm going to lock it before he or anyone else gets all fired up and anyone else gets ignored/insulted/whatever for any conceivable reason.  Cant be having more of that, regardless of who it ends up directed at.