Author Topic: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)  (Read 3099 times)

Offline Misery

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2017, 01:22:58 AM »
Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.

It's like I said:  a vote for EITHER side ends up hurting SOMEONE.  RIght now with things as they are, those two groups seem to be hurting.  If it had been the other side though, it'd just be OTHER groups hurting.  There is no option that doesnt lead to pain.  None.  This, to me, is the very nature of politics; politicians, as a rule, are rather selfish individuals who will do whatever it takes to gain power and renown.  They're never trustworthy, and just as damn nasty as some of the jerks you see in the usual screaming arguements.   With zero good options to choose from, what in the heck else would I do?  As I said, it's not about a lack of caring.  But what I can most do for others is help those nearby, or those who come to me for assistance (which, oddly, happens alot, no I havent figured out why).  THAT is what I can do.  Instead of diving into the hyena pile and wasting time/energy on things that'll serve no purpose other than getting me all angry, which helps nothing and nobody.  I'm not too fond of things that dont do much of anything.

Besides, like I said, it's not that I ACTUALLY dont know anything at all:  It's moreso that I see the pointlessness in further research.  I watch how people act, I watch what it does to them, I hear what those around me constantly ramble about in relation to this, and the writing is on the wall to me:  Participation in politics is like participation in an arguement on the Dota forums:  It's just a bunch of horrible toxicity that, in the end, will accomplish nothing, and it's tribalism at it's absolute worst.   Further knowledge isnt very helpful when that knowledge is just as bloody toxic as anything that came before it.

Not to mention... I dont trust any of it anyway.  All the stuff that the media and news sites and whatnot spout out.  Not in the age of things like clickbait titles and general sensationalism.  I may not follow politics, but I've been attached to the Net since there's BEEN a Net, and I've sure as heck seen how the media in a general sense has gotten so very, very much worse, to the point where I just dont find any of it to be truly reliable anymore.  When you feel that you cannot even trust info sources, why would you go to them for that info?  Particularly when it relates to a subject you consider poisonous.  You may find it odd that I make the decisons that I do without doing direct research, but really, seeing how people act and hearing the crap they spout is enough to tell me all I need to know.  Really, the evidence is everywhere.  Heck, just look at political ads on TV (or anywhere else).   It's never about what each candidate can do for the people:  It's about spewing insults at the other candidates, like a bunch of rather dimwitted schoolyard bullies sparring against each other.   It's pathetic.   Why in the world would I ever support anyone like that?  It reminds me of various bullies I used to deal with back in my school years... the idea of supporting pretty much any politician would be like me going up to one of those bullies and thanking them for their services by handing them money.  The very concept baffles me.


In the end, it simply serves no function to me.  Whenever I might help others... politics will never be the road I go down.  It's such a bloody waste.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2017, 02:00:39 AM »
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Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.
Oh good, he blocked me. At least the virtue signaling won't be directed at me specifically.

Again, if neither candidate is not qualified to be in office (Hillary being a criminal bought and sold by big money and Trump being...well Trump), you have a responsibility not to vote for either of them. Because doing so continues to support a system which no longer HAS YOUR INTERESTS IN MIND.

Nobody is denying that the U.S. political system is broken. Nobody is even denying it! Cyborg wouldn't even deny that. He would just say "We should still vote anyway because blah blah blah virtue signaling blah blah."

Alasdair MacIntyre, an Emeritus Professor of Philosophy at the University of Notre Dame, is on the record on what voters should do in such a situation. He is unequivocal: Voters should reject both candidates.

Here is what he wrote:
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When offered a choice between two politically intolerable alternatives, it is important to choose neither. And when that choice is presented in rival arguments and debates that exclude from public consideration any other set of possibilities, it becomes a duty to withdraw from those arguments and debates, so as to resist the imposition of this false choice by those who have arrogated to themselves the power of framing the alternatives.

I recently visited Canada. In Canada political candidates for Presidency get a set amount of money to run with and that's it. They are not allowed to accept donations or bribes from MASSIVE super PACS. It is a merit based system, where candidates win by appealing to the people, not by having the most notoriety and air time. Canada isn't perfect, but a person like Donald Trump NEVER would have won an election there, because there would have been a hundred other alternatives.

In our country, having money is a prerequisite to being a candidate, and therefore most situations are the ones where both candidates are cozying up to the banks and serving the financial interests of corporate entities which quite frankly do not give a shit about you. The idea that you would support this system by voting for either person is insane. You could vote for a 3rd party if it represented your interests with the understanding that they will never win. This isn't even mentioning the other problems with our archaic system such as the electoral college, gerrymandering, and superdelegates, just to name a few.

Hell, the majority people didn't even want either candidate, so the fact that we were forced to vote between them just goes to show that we no longer live in "A Democracy".

This is no surprise to anybody who doesn't have their head in the sand.



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Offline Misery

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2017, 02:14:26 AM »
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Again, if neither candidate is not qualified to be in office (Hillary being a criminal bought and sold by big money and Trump being...well Trump), you have a responsibility not to vote for either of them. Because doing so continues to support a system which no longer HAS YOUR INTERESTS IN MIND.

Agreed.

I mean, really, the whole system just seems seriously broken, as you said.  Just... really freaking broken.

There's just no good solution to this sort of thing.   All anyone can do is figure out what they personally believe is best to do, and act on it.  And no choice, wether it be a vote or not voting, will meet with total approval from everyone. 


Ya know, I dont normally ask about stuff like this, but out of sheerest curiosity:   If most people didn't want either candidate... how in the bloody hell did they both end up being candidates in the first place?  It seems so stupidly illogical that even I have to ask.

Offline Mad Rubicant

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2017, 03:17:00 AM »
Oh god why am I entering this thread

So, Misery, in any other election I could get behind your stance. A generic democrat isn't all that different from a generic republican, even if I would vote for the democrat every time. The problem is, our election system has extremely strong incentives against 3rd parties. A great example is 1860, where 40% of the country voted for Lincoln, and he got 59% of the vote and won (and we got a civil war!).

Ya know, I dont normally ask about stuff like this, but out of sheerest curiosity:   If most people didn't want either candidate... how in the bloody hell did they both end up being candidates in the first place?  It seems so stupidly illogical that even I have to ask.
With Hillary, I'm not quite sure how we got her. I wish we had Sanders, but alas. The way we got Donald Trump was the fact that he took the primaries by storm, and then in the general election he told downtrodden working class people who live in ghost towns that he's going to make everything better for them. And it happens that downtrodden working class live in the traditional swing states, which are the only ones that really matter (I live in coastal California, my vote didn't matter).

With President Hillary, it would have been more of the same, which, while not what I want, is a safe path. And for Trump voters, more of the same is more misery.

President Trump's first week in office has not been normal. He has (and I'm forgetting stuff)
  • Frozen all grants for the EPA
  • Instated a gag rule on all EPA scientific findings, and forced them to be politically vetted (Preventing any releases while the government transitions may be normal, but I doubt that this will stay normal)
  • Bragged about himself in a speech to the CIA, in a CIA memorial, and brought in non-CIA to cheer for him
  • Begun dismantling the ACA, with no replacement in sight
  • Begun steps on building a wall on the Mexican border, and one idea he had for paying for it was a 20% tariff on Mexican imports[/i].
  • Nevermind that the above point completely goes against international trade conventions (trade war yay!), it means that American consumers are going to pay for the wall
  • Yesterday, he enacted an executive order that bars citizens of Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Syria, Sudan and Yemen from entering the United States. The order bars refugees, tourists, visa holders and permanent legal residents of the United States[/i]. When they received the order, the Department of Homeland Security came to the conclusion that it didn't apply to visa holders and permanent residents, and the White House overruled them
  • Placed STEVE BANNON on the National Security Council, and removed the Chairman of Joint Chiefs from the NSC.
  • Filed for re-election. That's right, 5 HOURS after he was inaugurated, he filed for reelection in 2020. Obama filed for reelection in 2012 in April of 2011, which is about when the campaign gets rolling. Bush filed in May of 2003 for the 2004 election, and Clinton and HW Bush filed within a similar timeframe.[/i]
This ignores the long list of stupid, inane, and thuggish things he's done as president-elect before his inauguration.

Spoiler for Hitler:
Also, Donald Trump himself is merely an incompetent Cheetoh. What makes him dangerous is that he has Steve Bannon whispering in his ear, and his speeches and actions have emboldened literal Nazis to come out of the woodwork. I don't think he's advocated for internment camps yet, but he has advocated for a Muslim registry (nevermind that it already exists), and then there's the Muslim ban from today.

Also, we're totally screwed internationally. Completely and utterly screwed. China is preparing for war. International trade could break down (get ready to say goodbye to year-round produce). Trump loves Putin. And a laundry list of other stupidity.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2017, 03:05:09 PM »
If we still have an intact political party (instead of a 'keep-the-country-running' party) at the end of this I'll be surprised at their ignorance of the important things.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2017, 03:24:30 PM »
Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.

It's like I said:  a vote for EITHER side ends up hurting SOMEONE.  RIght now with things as they are, those two groups seem to be hurting.  If it had been the other side though, it'd just be OTHER groups hurting.  There is no option that doesnt lead to pain.  None.  This, to me, is the very nature of politics; politicians, as a rule, are rather selfish individuals

Two groups? No, far more than two groups. I only gave you the two that you identified with. I completely left out religious minorities, anyone who uses the Internet, immigrants, students, women, our planet/environment, and minorities not enumerated here.

But I would like to know, if Hillary had won, what sort of equal amount of pain would have happened that nullifies voting? I'm genuinely trying to understand why remaining ignorant and not participating is the right answer. You haven't answered why not learning about the world around you and not being educated is a valuable pursuit. Why is it valuable to you to not learn?

In Hitler's Germany, would you have voted? Or would have voting against Hitler also cause pain that would make it a waste to vote? I'm going back to the question of, when do you choose to participate?

I can't imagine four years of this.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2017, 04:12:04 PM »
What a wonderful time not to live in the USA. Again. Seriosly, no one envies you for what you get now.
But you brought this on yourself. And no, this has nothing to do with "because people disn't vote". Well not the only reason at least, it does affect the outcome. But anyone who says that Hillary would be better has to be equally blind as the Trump supporters. This has nothing to do with more or less evil. She just throws her stupidity to other subjects. In this case you cannot argue, who would do the less harm. You Americans would be screwed anyway.
Instead you should ask yourself "How did it come to the fact that the only two options we had are two absulutrly idiots?". People complain so many times "the system is broken" but no obe actually does something.
In the end, everyone of you is to blame.

Also, using Hitler analogies here is way over the top.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2017, 06:37:54 PM »
I stand by my questions. If the most evil, notorious leader in history is not someone Misery (or anyone else) would vote against, there's really no point in continuing discussing this with them.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2017, 06:58:45 PM »
But Trump is not Hitler and I dont see why this question should even exist.
You dont make apoint that way. You go entirely in the wrong direction and no one will take you serious if you say stuff like this.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2017, 07:14:53 PM »
But Trump is not Hitler and I dont see why this question should even exist.
You dont make apoint that way. You go entirely in the wrong direction and no one will take you serious if you say stuff like this.

I'm not worried about your powers of deduction here. The reason I bring up the extreme case of a fascist takeover is to see if there is indeed a limit to ignoring democratic participation. If there is no limit, if there is no single person that has existed which would drive someone to participate, the conversation is over. If there is someone who does exist (and using Hitler would be the limit test here, I could also use Joseph Stalin, but I'm guessing that his atrocities are less well-known on this board), the conversation continues as we discover exactly where the line is between participation and not.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2017, 07:30:52 PM »
I really would like to say more on this than I can at the moment. Unfortunately my Wlan doesn't work at the monent and I can only type with my mobile phone, which makes it unbearable to type long debates.
So I will gor now say nothing until I get my new router. Its up to Misery if he wants to answer that. I wouldn't actually but thats none of my concern.

Offline WolfWhiteFire

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2017, 08:26:00 PM »
Well, I figured I might as well add the viewpoint of another person with autism (Asperger's Syndrome in this case, which is a high functioning form of autism) and personally I feel that though both the party candidates were pretty awful, it is good to still vote, though of course there is nothing wrong with choosing not to. Even if neither is good, one might be slightly better than the other, then the next set of candidates could have one slightly better than the previous one, repeat enough times and it might even end up good, but even still I would prefer to keep things as good as possible. Misery does have a point about any option being able to hurt somebody, but I wouldn't decide to not make any choices, instead I would try to go with the one I feel would help the most people and hurt the least. Another option would be to go with a third-party candidate, which though they have no chance of winning, one might get enough support to get a little more funding next time, and get a little more support, repeat enough times maybe one could actually stand a chance. Also even if you make things a tiny bit better, or prevent things from getting as bad, even if only a tiny bit less bad, it also leaves a better foundation for next time. However, though personally I would do my research and choose what I feel to be a better option, I feel there should be no hatred towards those who don't, as that is their choice and decision, based on their beliefs, and there is nothing wrong with choosing not to vote. Though admittedly that opinion is likely based largely on my belief in open-mindedness and letting others make their own choices and have their own beliefs without treating them worse because of it, as long as those choices and beliefs don't involve any harm to others. Also I think people should try to be a little more relaxed with this, it seems to be getting closer and closer to a hate-fest, you can disagree with someone, but please try to do it in a nice way, rather than condemning them for having a different opinion, this forum is generally a nice place, and I for one would like to see it kept that way.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 08:33:01 PM by WolfWhiteFire »

Offline Misery

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2017, 01:36:28 AM »
Even when your own fellow persons with disabilities and LGBTQ folks are persecuted- no, have their very lives threatened- you don't see the value of participating because the math you are doing means both candidates cancel each other out. Even when the planet you live on is being threatened, you see it as a wash.

It's like I said:  a vote for EITHER side ends up hurting SOMEONE.  RIght now with things as they are, those two groups seem to be hurting.  If it had been the other side though, it'd just be OTHER groups hurting.  There is no option that doesnt lead to pain.  None.  This, to me, is the very nature of politics; politicians, as a rule, are rather selfish individuals

Two groups? No, far more than two groups. I only gave you the two that you identified with. I completely left out religious minorities, anyone who uses the Internet, immigrants, students, women, our planet/environment, and minorities not enumerated here.

But I would like to know, if Hillary had won, what sort of equal amount of pain would have happened that nullifies voting? I'm genuinely trying to understand why remaining ignorant and not participating is the right answer. You haven't answered why not learning about the world around you and not being educated is a valuable pursuit. Why is it valuable to you to not learn?

In Hitler's Germany, would you have voted? Or would have voting against Hitler also cause pain that would make it a waste to vote? I'm going back to the question of, when do you choose to participate?

I can't imagine four years of this.

EXACTLY.   What you said at the top there:  Far more than two groups.  There's so much that can go wrong in politics, that when you add the very simple and indisputable fact that politicians are greedy and selfish, and that they basically campaign like salesmen (which is effectively what campaigning IS, selling a product, as the very same techniques are used) rather than, again, showing what they really can do for people.  I've heard so VERY often now that BOTH candidates were freaking awful.  I have no bloody clue WHICH groups would have been hurt under Hillary's rule.  It doesn't MATTER which ones:  THe fact is, various groups would have been hurt.  Perhaps the LGBT and disabled communities wouldn't have... but other groups, not currently hurting, would have simply taken their place.  This is the very nature of this system, when it's effectively controlled by greedy salespeople who seek only higher positions and more screen time.

When both options are godawful, I'm not going to select either.  Not when simply refusing to choose is an option.  It reminds me of, again, another concept associated with sales/marketing (which I'm now going to repeatedly equate to the political election process), which is the concept of "voting with your wallet".  Where if you think a company is bad, awful, nasty, you don't buy their product:  That's how you show your displeasure to them.  And maybe if all the OTHER options in that realm are just as bad... maybe you just get by without that type of product, because you simply don't want to support such nasty, nasty groups doing shady things.  This concept has been effectively drilled permanently into my mind:  Both from my experiences with the game industry (groups like EA and Activision, who I generally refuse to buy from), and also by my father and stepmother, who know *a lot* about sales and related concepts.  To buy something is to support the company selling it... it's a very simple concept.  Everyone knows that.  But look at what happens when people just keep buying things from bad companies simply because they don't know of any other choices:  you get situations like the rampant money-grubbing that affects the gaming industry right now.  People REFUSE to simply refrain from purchasing from the big guys, so the big guys just keep doing all the awful stuff they are doing.

I tend to view politics in the same way.  A political candidate CANNOT reach a major position without support.  It's that simple.  The entire system cannot work without support... this is also simple.  Considering that the entire system is a corrupted, poisonous mess... I'm not going to support it.  Not when I know that ANY vote will hurt someone.  I was not raised by my parents to harm people with my choices.  Something I've always been taught is that sometimes you need to know when to just walk away from something.  There are times to fight, sure, there are times to take action, but sometimes, there's no such thing as the "right" action.  In those cases... in other words, THIS case... I walk away.  As I said, I help people in other ways.   Wether or not you believe this is of course up to you... but it's the simple truth.  It's not something I speak of very much, being as negative as I am, but yes, I do things for people when those things really are necessary.

And in those cases where I help, there IS a good option.  And so, that's the option I choose.  When there is a genuinely good option in a situation, I will not walk away from it, simple as that.  I do not like leaving things unfinished, and I also don't like seeing people hurting in a situation where I can DO something (without then hurting an equal number of people, which is all that voting does, in my view). 

But in politics?  There is no good option.  None.  Both candidates are poisonous:  I don't need deep research to know this.  Hell, LOTS of people know this, and I guarantee you that very few voters REALLY research their choices.  But to many, both sides were so obviously BAD that it became extremely evident that there was no such thing as a good choice.  One of the few things that I do know about politics is that technically, there are more than two parties.  For people that feel that both of the main parties are godawful, they often feel like they have this "duty" to still vote anyway, just because "voting is the thing you do".  So they'll vote for some third party, who even I know will never, ever win... that's such a very simple fact that even I grasp it easily, in politics.  I, personally, do not believe in empty gestures like that.  Again, I don't like things that accomplish nothing, which is exactly what happens in that case.  Why waste my time?  If you were to know me in person, you'd probably see LOTS of examples of this sort of thing... the lack of making empty gestures.  For example, I never engage in small talk, because it doesn't DO anything.  It's just "a thing you do", and the reason is BECAUSE "it's a thing you do".  That's an empty gesture.  I just wont do it, as it makes no sense to me.  Call it an effect of the autism, perhaps... heck if I know.  I just know that it's a personality trait I cannot shake.  It's part of why I'm so very, very bad socially and know very few people.   Hell, ALOT of what socializing I do actually comes from THIS forum.


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Though admittedly that opinion is likely based largely on my belief in open-mindedness and letting others make their own choices and have their own beliefs without treating them worse because of it, as long as those choices and beliefs don't involve any harm to others.

Aye, I agree with this and tend to have the same belief.  Hell, the nature of my blasted condition (or whatever word you want to use for autism, any term is fine by me, I just say "condition" because it's easily understood) and also the nature of, well... the LGBT stuff... kinda means that OF COURSE I'm going to see it that way.   I like to hope that everyone in this place does as well, really.


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Also I think people should try to be a little more relaxed with this, it seems to be getting closer and closer to a hate-fest, you can disagree with someone, but please try to do it in a nice way, rather than condemning them for having a different opinion, this forum is generally a nice place, and I for one would like to see it kept that way.

Ehhh.... I wouldn't say that.  I don't see any hate from anyone here and nothing resembling a full-on argument.  Like a great many topics in this forum, so far, this is just debate.  It seems that we're good at this here.  Heck, I get into random debates with people pretty darn frequently (usually over gaming topics, often with Wingflier), but a proper debate is NOT an argument; there's no bad emotions or dislike anywhere... it's just a good old-fashioned debate.  They can be very interesting.

However, if this DOES devolve into that at any point, I'll simply slam the topic shut.   I really, really doubt it'll go anywhere near that.  That sort of thing seriously just never seems to happen here.  Yeah, there was that gun topic, but I consider that a total fluke.  This is a pretty darn pleasant place really.  There aren't any nasty or mean sorts here.  Heck, I've not met anyone that I dislike in this place, not even one person, and for me that's pretty rare.


Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2017, 01:41:03 AM »
I fundamentally can't understand head-in-sand realities.

Look up "disillusioned" and "apoliticial". You might learn something. Some of us, and I'm guessing Misery is in this same position as I am, simply believe that nothing good can come out of a system that benefits the ones who seek power for the sake of power. The American political system is the poster boy for a completely and utterly sh*tridden catastrophy of a political system, but I can't say I know of many that are much better.

When, out of 300+ million people, a nation comes up with Hillary and Donald...well, do I really need to say anything more than that? We live but a short life and some of us, quite frankly, don't give a flying ¤%/¤ what happens after we're gone because humanity simply isn't worth saving.

Dark? Yes. But apparently incredibly common among people of high intellect, for whatever reason. Depression and disillusion are common ailments of intellectual people.
Humanity disgusts me and an election like this just further cements that fact. There is tons of good in humanity but we are so busy bickering amongst ourselves that we simply don't care what is the best for everyone. As long as humanity has a crushing majority of barely conscious mouth-breathers who think nothing for others and only of themselves, or even stick to stupid, outdate racial and nationalist ideals well ... let's just say the downfall of civilization can't come soon enough.

Humanity could have saved itself if it could just have learned to live in harmony with itself. But we are but instinctual, territorial, greedy animals. So let's just give way to something better. We're done here. Over and out.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 01:46:18 AM by Mánagarmr »
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Offline Misery

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Re: Trump (clicking this is voluntary)
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2017, 03:40:15 AM »
I fundamentally can't understand head-in-sand realities.

Look up "disillusioned" and "apoliticial". You might learn something. Some of us, and I'm guessing Misery is in this same position as I am, simply believe that nothing good can come out of a system that benefits the ones who seek power for the sake of power. The American political system is the poster boy for a completely and utterly sh*tridden catastrophy of a political system, but I can't say I know of many that are much better.

When, out of 300+ million people, a nation comes up with Hillary and Donald...well, do I really need to say anything more than that? We live but a short life and some of us, quite frankly, don't give a flying ¤%/¤ what happens after we're gone because humanity simply isn't worth saving.

Dark? Yes. But apparently incredibly common among people of high intellect, for whatever reason. Depression and disillusion are common ailments of intellectual people.
Humanity disgusts me and an election like this just further cements that fact. There is tons of good in humanity but we are so busy bickering amongst ourselves that we simply don't care what is the best for everyone. As long as humanity has a crushing majority of barely conscious mouth-breathers who think nothing for others and only of themselves, or even stick to stupid, outdate racial and nationalist ideals well ... let's just say the downfall of civilization can't come soon enough.

Humanity could have saved itself if it could just have learned to live in harmony with itself. But we are but instinctual, territorial, greedy animals. So let's just give way to something better. We're done here. Over and out.

Ye gods, that's negative and dark.  Even I'd have trouble producing that.

I thought I was supposed to be the unpleasant one here.