Author Topic: Toxicity in team based games  (Read 6591 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2014, 08:24:37 am »
I do wonder, though, is focusing the tank first in a team fight ever the right thing to do?
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Mick

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2014, 08:40:03 am »
I do wonder, though, is focusing the tank first in a team fight ever the right thing to do?

It's what they'd least expect!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2014, 08:54:28 am »
I do wonder, though, is focusing the tank first in a team fight ever the right thing to do?

It's what they'd least expect!
Unless you do it three team fights in a row!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2014, 09:17:45 am »
Everyone said it was daft to focus on a tank first in the swamp!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2014, 12:49:14 pm »
In DotA sometimes it's okay to focus the tank, depending on the situation. Though, the argument has commonly been made that DotA doesn't have "tanks", in the formal sense, it has initiators, which are typically harder to kill than the other classes, but can still be put down fairly quickly in a coordinated attack. But given that the "tanks" are the initiators in DotA, focusing them first often prevents them from doing their job, which is starting the fight for their team. Shutting down an initiator in DotA can be absolutely huge. In addition to that, there are several abilities in DotA that don't exist in other MOBAs, that can use a "tank's" hardiness against him. One of the more recent common picks in competitive play is Necrophos, who has a passive ability which drains 1.5% of an enemy's hp per second in a large AOE (so it scales with HP), then his ultimate which also deals damage based on HP percentages. At level 4 (scepter upgrade), it can actually kill while the enemy is above 50% health. Needless to say, this is an incredible anti-tank weapon, and there are many like it.

Having said that, it commonly happens that "tanks" are focused in DotA at the wrong times, and it can cause a lot of rage and frustration among teammates, especially if the enemy initiator was just baiting. However, it seems to be less of a problem in DotA than in some of the other MOBAs where it's NEVER the right idea, for the reasons provided. One of the reasons I enjoy DotA over the others is the fact that there are so few set "rules" to how the game should be played. It allows a much larger realm of possible behaviors which can still result in victory, though this unfortunately does not prevent people from being toxic when they feel a teammate isn't playing *THEIR* way.

In terms of the "toxicity" debate, I do think it's a little narcissitic to think that your fun is the only thing that matters. Logically speaking, I can't see why my fun is any more important than the fun of anybody else playing. But then again, I don't see myself as superior to anybody else playing either. As far as I'm concerned we're all equal as human beings. Even if my skill level is higher (or lower), I don't see how this enters into the equation. Having said that, I do tend to get pretty nasty sometimes when teammates do incredibly stupid things, so maybe I'm a hypocrite.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2014, 07:40:24 pm »

And yeah, I dont like worrying about the meta so dang much either.  I mean, I can learn some stuff for it, sure.  But one thing I always notice is that NOBODY EVER AGREES ON IT.  The idea of a "meta" tends to suggest that, okay, for THIS character, there is a definite best setup, with definite best choices of items, and this is the way you use them.   But it doesnt work that way.  There's always theorycrafting and arguing, people never fully agreeing on what really IS the best.  And if you watch the best players, they're good at IMPROVISING.  They choose what they need at the time based on their own knowledge and logic, for THEIR playstyle and what they want to accomplish.  And I tend to play that way myself.

Gawds, this causes so much rage with me in League Conquest of SMITE. "DOOD, Y U PICK CABRAKAN SUPPORT?!?!?! HE'S THE WORST GOD IN THE GAME EVER. PICK ATHENA ALREADY! (I have a really terrible win/loss ratio with her right now and she's considered the second best support atm. I think she's highly overrated). BLEEPING SCRUB! NOW WE LOSE. GG. GEEGEE".  As if picking one "bad" god instantly means the game is over. Yet this same person will also pick up Anubis who is considered the worst mage in Conquest right now. The double standard with supports is real right now.

For the record: I think SMITE is at the best balance it has ever been. You cannot point to a single god and say picking him/her immediately puts a handicap on your team. As long as you know how to use the god and be successful with him/her, you have as good a chance as any with winning.

To those not aware, Cabrakan (http://smite.gamepedia.com/Cabrakan) was the most recent Guardian (tank) added to SMITE. He's a very in-your-face kind of guardian who was initially launched in a very bad balance state. Several buffs later, and I think he makes a very viable support/bruiser. I am in the minority on this as the Meta/Pro-players consider him one of the worst supports to come out. Ignoring the one guy who I think is way worse at support (Hades). And I've done very well with Cabrakan, making him my second favorite support behind Geb who just happens to be considered the best support in the game. So, I can play the "best" and "worst" supports and do really well. Yet, we have so much focus on god tiers that playing anything below the best is considered a terrible idea.

I say all this to lead up to my point: I am so sick and tired of people claiming they know what the best Meta is and who the best god is for each role. The Meta ONLY matters at pro-levels of play. Below that, it comes down to individual and team-skill. If your team sucks at initiating when Athena taunts 5 people, then Athena is going to be as useful as a sock. If your team feeds despite all the work you do as support, then it doesn't matter if you picked up Athena or not. You still be losing. But so many people put so much dependency on the META and God Tiers its ridiculous.

I've gotten to the point that when I call support, I don't take "suggestions" for who to play. I'll play who I judge works best with the team comp at hand. But its not always Geb/Athena and people get so butthurt about that when I don't pick the "elite" gods its actually really sad. Maybe its because they believe themselves to be pro-SPL players.....that's a possibility.

Not entirely sure if my sudo-rant here really brought anything to the discussion, but it sure made me feel better! :P
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2014, 02:23:08 am »
In BF4 focusing on a tank (haha) is always the right thing to do... because tanks will otherwise dominate (if they have repair support)

And this is of course, also meaning that noobs NEVER focus on tanks, they run away, hide, instead of actively engaging and killing the 1 thing preventing victory (ie, camping on a flag). It also means playing tank is either absolutely mind numbingly boring or absolutely mind numbingly boring, because either the enemy team actively hunts you, which means you might as well NOT play tank, or because when they don't hunt you actively, then you hunt the enemy and they have zero chance.

I feel like MP games, especially Battlefield, lost touch with what is FUN in mp games. I honestly absolutely HATE playing tank at this point. I am pretty dang good with them, but because the situation is always either of 2 extremes I am always incredibly bored when playing them.

And I keep with Misery, you should only play something to have fun.
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2014, 08:16:48 pm »
There are situations where focusing the tank makes sense.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2014, 09:28:08 pm »
There are situations where focusing the tank makes sense.

Yes.

I find it humorous that from the research of land warfare for the last at least...95 years the tank is both the greatest source of firepower and the greatest risk.  Hardly the definition of "tank" in the gaming term.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2014, 12:13:16 pm »
Well, this thread pretty much explained EXACTLY why team based games frustrate me so goddamn much. Everyone's a solo player who thinks they're the god of strategy and "I'll do my own damn thing" and "don't gaf about others fun".


Gee. I guess I had higher throughts about people.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2014, 12:22:03 pm »
Well, this thread pretty much explained EXACTLY why team based games frustrate me so goddamn much. Everyone's a solo player who thinks they're the god of strategy and "I'll do my own damn thing" and "don't gaf about others fun".


Gee. I guess I had higher throughts about people.
Welcome to the human race.  You appear to be new to it, so here's a pamphlet.

(/joking) :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2014, 05:08:00 pm »
If you're going to base your opinion of the entire human race on the angry, neckbeard, permavirgin types that usually play these kinds of MOBA games, you're gonna have a bad time. It would be like basing one's opinion of the entire female population on the behaviors of 3rd Wave Feminists. Generally, not a great idea.

Having said that, I must agree with Mánagarmr here. The prevailing attitudes in this thread concerning teamwork and cooperation have been downright narcissistic and even sociopathic at times. There is definitely a fine line between "I'm trying to help my teammates by explaining what to do" and "These people deserve to be verbally punished for their f*cking stupidity" or, alternatively, "Everyone's fun is important, but I care most about my own" and "Screw everyone else's fun, I'm the only person that matters", and unfortunately I feel that line has been crossed.

But again, refer to my first sentence. To be fair, I'm included in that category :D
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2014, 07:31:07 pm »
Feh, I'm sticking to my guns on this one, selfish though it may seem or not.

One way or another, when dealing with random people on the Net DURING a game (where there's no time to look things up), I simply cannot trust advice given by them in many situations.   

Oh, I'll consider doing certain things.... if someone tells me, "Go and gank the right lane!" and it doesnt look phenomenally stupid to do so and I'm not playing support (we all know pure healers can gank like nobody's business), then I might do it.  IF they dont phrase it like a pile fo swear words, at which point I'll ignore them for the rest of the match.

But stuff beyond that?  No.  That's as far as anyone else is telling me what to do during a game with randoms.  It's one thing if it's people I know giving advice... of course I'll listen to them. But it's a whole other thing when it's some random jerk that I'll see in ONE whole game, who actually has a very high chance of being entirely wrong about whatever damn silly thing he thinks I need to do.  Remember, that's one of the biggest problems with these:  Everyone trying to give orders of the "Well you need to build like THIS" sort thinks they know EVERYTHING.  Nothing is THEIR fault, and if you'd just do exactly as they told you, of COURSE the team will win.  And of COURSE they know what they're talking about and cant be wrong!  Wheras I just leave everyone be for the most part, and will learn on my own, thanks. 

Besides, it typically works out well enough.  It's relatively rare that anyone actually yells at me much regardless of whatever I may happen to be doing overall... this is likely due to the part where I just saved their stupid ass from sticking their own heads into a bucket of chainsaws.  It's not wise to scream at the support who is the only reason why you're not currently on fire and covered in bees.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 07:41:13 pm by Misery »

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2014, 06:47:54 pm »
Well, this thread pretty much explained EXACTLY why team based games frustrate me so goddamn much. Everyone's a solo player who thinks they're the god of strategy and "I'll do my own damn thing" and "don't gaf about others fun".


Gee. I guess I had higher throughts about people.


And this is what I call a bunch of whining. We are not so different, Mana and I.


On one hand, you have me openly admitting to you that my choice to play a game in the evening is about my own entertainment. I'm sure it must be completely shocking to you that I could care less about random people on the Internet. And on the other hand, we have someone like Mana complaining that people like me are ruining his fun because we don't play the way he wants us to.


Two sides of the same coin, from where I sit. He's concerned about his own fun, which tragically involves my cooperation… No, even worse!… which involves my capitulation. Not once have you said one word of concern about my feelings or my level of enjoyment. Because you don't care. And neither do I about your feelings. Unfortunately for you, it appears that your enjoyment depends on me, but my enjoyment doesn't depend on you! I'm going to do just fine with or without your cooperation, I'm most likely going to win the game, most likely going to be rocking the KDA, and I'm going to have a great time doing it whether or not you support me or play the meta.


And that's really the flaw here, isn't it? I don't need you to do well. I don't need you to feed me CS or kills. I don't need you to play the meta or gank, or build your character in a certain way. Because of this, I'm not going to blame you when things go wrong, and I'm usually not going to thank you when I do well. Because I can do awesome on the field and have my definition of fun without you. I challenge you to do the same.


I should also add that, random MOBA games do not play like pro games. Because of the lack of structure, communication, practice, hero matchups, so on and so forth, it's just not going to be the same. If you want to play something structured, you need to recruit your team and set it up the way you want. Otherwise, the authority that you have to declare what you want to happen on the field is no more and no less than my own. In fact, because I'm usually smarter and better at the game than anyone else, people should be listening to me. But they don't. And it doesn't frustrate me because I don't expect them to follow me.


Adjust your expectations and learn to handle yourself on the field instead of blaming everyone around you. It will make you a better player. It also builds character to take responsibility upon yourself for the way the game progresses instead of mentally defending your ego by taking credit when things go right but blaming everyone else when things go wrong. I have been accused of cult behavior, narcissism, and being a sociopath in this thread, but I would say that I'm just better at introspection and observation of group dynamics. It's brutally honest, and that rubs people the wrong way. But we are in the off-topic thread!
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Toxicity in team based games
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2014, 11:55:05 am »
Actually, if you read my posts you'll see I initially complained about people not listening to advice (not playing "the way I want to") in addition to not learning from mistakes. Then, I changed to being apalled about the fact that people are selfish jerks who can't have an ounce of care for their fellow players.


I think I'll stop there before I get rude.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!