Toxicity in team based games

[Mánagarmr]

I'm really starting to understand the toxicity that permeates the MOBA-genre. I've now logged over 550 hours in Smite, and I consider myself a competent player. I understand team composition, I know the maps and I know counterplays and counterbuilding.


But it drives me insane when I'm in game 10 of the day, and I'm still playing with people who don't know how to listen to either advice or orders. Who just keep "doing their thing" which is completely destroying every chance we have of a successful team engagement. For instance the team is told to focus the damage dealers and ignore the heavy tank at the front. I dive in and go for the mages at the back, and I damage them heavily, trying to stay alive until my team catches up. But I'm destroyed within 10 seconds because, lo and behold, three of my teammates are fruitlessly hammering on the tank WAAAAY back our tower. The only one who did follow was OUR tank, who is now also being destroyed because he's all alone.


If that happens once or twice, I can let it slide. But when it keeps happening over and over with people who not only do not learn from their mistakes, but are either unwilling or incapable of listening to advice on how to do, it starts to drive me up the wall and I'm getting genuinely antagonized towards these vegetables.


What's your experience? This is just something I've started to notice now that Smite's matchmaker is all over the place due to their new queue system.

[keith.lamothe]

The frustration is entirely understandable.

The question is: should the players making bad plays be expected to do otherwise?

They are the more immediate cause of the frustration, but is this because they've failed in some obligation that's actually binding on them, or because your idea of having fun and their idea of having fun are just really different?

In other words, matchmaking is more than matching skill levels, it's matching expectations.

[Mick]

Have any of you got into the Heroes of the Storm alpha? It's a very different experience than other MOBAs for me. I've experienced no toxicity in my time there (not to say it doesn't exist, but it must be much more rare than say League of Legends, where rage is pretty much the default).

[chemical_art]

Have any of you got into the Heroes of the Storm alpha? It's a very different experience than other MOBAs for me. I've experienced no toxicity in my time there (not to say it doesn't exist, but it must be much more rare than say League of Legends, where rage is pretty much the default).

That may have less to do with the game itself, and more to do that is still in alpha.

[mrhanman]

I was playing the Evolve Alpha this weekend, and in my first match I was dropped into the middle of a match and handed a class I'd never played before.  Largely because of this, we lost and instead of gameplay tips, I was immediately assaulted verbally by a 12 year old polish kid.  This never fails to happen when I try to play a new game online.  I'm too old to care, really, but I'm done with playing with random internet strangers.

[Cyborg]

The frustration is entirely understandable.

The question is: should the players making bad plays be expected to do otherwise?

They are the more immediate cause of the frustration, but is this because they've failed in some obligation that's actually binding on them, or because your idea of having fun and their idea of having fun are just really different?

In other words, matchmaking is more than matching skill levels, it's matching expectations.

I thought we already had a thread for this, but this is more or less correct.

[/size]

I'm really starting to understand the toxicity that permeates the MOBA-genre. I've now logged over 550 hours in Smite, and I consider myself a competent player. I understand team composition, I know the maps and I know counterplays and counterbuilding.


But it drives me insane when I'm in game 10 of the day, and I'm still playing with people who don't know how to listen to either advice or orders. Who just keep "doing their thing" which is completely destroying every chance we have of a successful team engagement. For instance the team is told to focus the damage dealers and ignore the heavy tank at the front. I dive in and go for the mages at the back, and I damage them heavily, trying to stay alive until my team catches up. But I'm destroyed within 10 seconds because, lo and behold, three of my teammates are fruitlessly hammering on the tank WAAAAY back our tower. The only one who did follow was OUR tank, who is now also being destroyed because he's all alone.


If that happens once or twice, I can let it slide. But when it keeps happening over and over with people who not only do not learn from their mistakes, but are either unwilling or incapable of listening to advice on how to do, it starts to drive me up the wall and I'm getting genuinely antagonized towards these vegetables.


What's your experience? This is just something I've started to notice now that Smite's matchmaker is all over the place due to their new queue system.

[/size]

[/size]

[/size]If we are both on the team, and I want you to do what I say, and you want me to do what you say, how do you solve that? We are strangers, and if we are playing together, I can promise I don't give a flying rat's backside what your opinion is. I'm probably going to do whatever I want to do because I'm trying to have fun for my sake, not yours.[size=78%]

[/size]The only solution is to form your own team with the organizational structure that best represents your idea of fun.[size=78%]

[Misery]

This is one I've heard of many times before, the whole "Well I'm telling them what they should do, and they just dont LISTEN" reason.  But there's one question I always ask at hearing that:  How does the person you're saying stuff to know that you know what you're doing?  How can they know that your advice is any good?  Particularly when you've got 10 bazillion idiots that will of course be giving them opposite advice in other matches, and those people will ALSO think they are right.  That's one of the things about this genre: Half of it is people arguing over which set of stats are the best, which strategy is the best, which build is the best, and as a whole, nobody ever agrees.  Just because someone SAYS you have to do such and such, doesnt mean it's actually true/correct.  I learned that one from fighting games... everyone in that community always rambling on about frame data and which combo you HAVE to do and blah blah blah, except that you dont *have* to do any of it.  *I* dont, and as a rule, I'm the one usually winning against those that think that way.  They say all sorts of things, and use all these technical terms, and explain things in such detail, but really, there's different approaches that one can take to games like that, though good luck getting that through anyone's thick head.

That's the sort of logic I usually go with, going into a game like this.  Just because someone is telling me "GO DO THIS!!!" doesnt mean that going and doing that is actually a good idea.  Too many times in other games that I've played previous to this one, I'd listen to advice given.... only to have it cause nothing but trouble.  So I've found that the best way I can learn (for this genre, anyway), is reading guides, and watching videos.  Just listening to totally random people that may or may not know what they're talking about is just going to confuse me.... so I dont. 


But there's other reasons, too. In some cases you might run into someone that's just tired of listening to other people, because of having experienced so much toxicity as it is. Maybe they either mute everyone, or just dont really glance down at the chat anymore at that point.  And it could be something outside of the game, too.  Maybe they've had a bad day, or are having pain or something, and are simply distracted, and not really playing their best.  Stuff like that can happen for anyone, and of course it sure doesnt mean they need to be yelled at.


I forget where I was going with this.

[Wingflier]

The frustration is entirely understandable.

The question is: should the players making bad plays be expected to do otherwise?

They are the more immediate cause of the frustration, but is this because they've failed in some obligation that's actually binding on them, or because your idea of having fun and their idea of having fun are just really different?

In other words, matchmaking is more than matching skill levels, it's matching expectations.

In general, Keith is right.

You can't always expect people to have the same mindset as you do going into a match or a battle. There are a wide range of acceptable behaviors and thought patterns which constitutes what could be a good player. Just because they are on a different wavelength as you, doesn't necessarily mean they are bad players, only that they have a different strategy. You should always take this into account before jumping into the back and focusing the squishiest target, that your team may not be on the same page with you. This is one of the reasons I prefer DotA and its integrated voice chat because people seem to respond more positively to kind verbal communication, which it is done respectfully, than anonymous chat which they may not even notice. If somebody verbally responds to you, you know you can count on them, whereas if they just type a quick "K", or nothing at all to a very detailed battle plan, it means...less than nothing.

As I said before, there is a wide range of acceptable behavior and thought patterns which constitutes a good player, and they may still be on a different wavelength as you. Having said that, the selection of choices for good players is still limited. Many times, the player(s) are just bad. When I realize that a player is bad (usually fairly quickly after 10+ years of playing), I simply stop relying on him. It isn't necessary to be toxic, simply pretend that they aren't there, or that they are an easy bot. You can perhaps try to give them some simple instructions or advice, but that's typically something I attempt to do *before* I decide whether they're a bad player. If after that, they continue the feeding or self-destructive behavior, I've found that it's better to just write them off and try to win the game without them being considered as an asset. In other words, stop expecting anything from them. Sometimes they can pleasantly surprise you. When I've marked my whole team off as bad players, I'll typically meander around the base and/or find some other way to entertain myself until the game ends, as DotA has no concede system. However, that's a pretty rare occasion, as usually in every game there are at least 2-3 other players which are competent.

In the end though, I think Keith is right, the toxicity comes from the expectations. Incidentally, this actually a fundamental and core Buddhist teaching, how our expectations in life cause us misery. I think these games are a great example of that.

[Mick]

Have any of you got into the Heroes of the Storm alpha? It's a very different experience than other MOBAs for me. I've experienced no toxicity in my time there (not to say it doesn't exist, but it must be much more rare than say League of Legends, where rage is pretty much the default).

That may have less to do with the game itself, and more to do that is still in alpha.

I think the mechanics of the game are a big factor. There is no concept of stealing from your carry,Mao new players aren't yelled at for not instantly understanding non intuitive mechanics. Matches are shorter and comebacks are more possible, so there isn't the frustration of knowing you are wasting the next 30+ minutes because of what happened in the first 5.

[Mánagarmr]

Have any of you got into the Heroes of the Storm alpha? It's a very different experience than other MOBAs for me. I've experienced no toxicity in my time there (not to say it doesn't exist, but it must be much more rare than say League of Legends, where rage is pretty much the default).

Welcome to any game with a tiny playerbase. Smite was the same while it was in beta. As games grow, so do the assholes.

[Mánagarmr]

If we are both on the team, and I want you to do what I say, and you want me to do what you say, how do you solve that? We are strangers, and if we are playing together, I can promise I don't give a flying rat's backside what your opinion is. I'm probably going to do whatever I want to do because I'm trying to have fun for my sake, not yours.

The only solution is to form your own team with the organizational structure that best represents your idea of fun.

See, there's the problem. They're not communicating at all. They're just going about doing whatever the crap they were doing. It would be one thing if they at least came with a motivation as to why they're making their terrible choices. But it's always just dead silence and they keep dying over and over because they, quite frankly, are making really bad desicions.


And I really fail to see how "fun" is getting repeatedly stomped.

[Mánagarmr]

In general, Keith is right.

You can't always expect people to have the same mindset as you do going into a match or a battle. There are a wide range of acceptable behaviors and thought patterns which constitutes what could be a good player. Just because they are on a different wavelength as you, doesn't necessarily mean they are bad players, only that they have a different strategy. You should always take this into account before jumping into the back and focusing the squishiest target, that your team may not be on the same page with you. This is one of the reasons I prefer DotA and its integrated voice chat because people seem to respond more positively to kind verbal communication, which it is done respectfully, than anonymous chat which they may not even notice. If somebody verbally responds to you, you know you can count on them, whereas if they just type a quick "K", or nothing at all to a very detailed battle plan, it means...less than nothing.

As I said before, there is a wide range of acceptable behavior and thought patterns which constitutes a good player, and they may still be on a different wavelength as you. Having said that, the selection of choices for good players is still limited. Many times, the player(s) are just bad. When I realize that a player is bad (usually fairly quickly after 10+ years of playing), I simply stop relying on him. It isn't necessary to be toxic, simply pretend that they aren't there, or that they are an easy bot. You can perhaps try to give them some simple instructions or advice, but that's typically something I attempt to do *before* I decide whether they're a bad player. If after that, they continue the feeding or self-destructive behavior, I've found that it's better to just write them off and try to win the game without them being considered as an asset. In other words, stop expecting anything from them. Sometimes they can pleasantly surprise you. When I've marked my whole team off as bad players, I'll typically meander around the base and/or find some other way to entertain myself until the game ends, as DotA has no concede system. However, that's a pretty rare occasion, as usually in every game there are at least 2-3 other players which are competent.

In the end though, I think Keith is right, the toxicity comes from the expectations. Incidentally, this actually a fundamental and core Buddhist teaching, how our expectations in life cause us misery. I think these games are a great example of that.

Again, you naturally tell your team what is about to happen if something goes bad. If we get murdered because everyone was focusing the tank, I'd naturally say: "Ok, let's focus their damage next time because Hercules is not going to die anytime soon" and then people go and do the exact same thing again in the next fight. "Please, focus their damage, we are getting murdered." Same thing again.


At that point, the veins in my head are starting to pop.

[Mánagarmr]

In short, I'm not expecting the other players to be psychic and know exactly what I'm thinking. Neither am I expecting them to be MLG pros (because I'm far from it). But I do expect players that are matched with me (500+ hours) to at least understand the basics and to be able to adapt their strategy when it isn't working.

[keith.lamothe]

It's not unreasonable to expect them to learn from obviously catastrophic mistakes, but, well, welcome to the human race.

I find Planetside 2 to be a team-based MMO where I can generally operate well with others.  They usually do a lot of dumb things (so do I) but we usually get the job done.

[Wingflier]

In short, I'm not expecting the other players to be psychic and know exactly what I'm thinking. Neither am I expecting them to be MLG pros (because I'm far from it). But I do expect players that are ...

Don't do that.