Author Topic: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.  (Read 23658 times)

Offline madcow

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2013, 10:54:56 am »
Dungeons of Dredmor and FTL are the only roguelikes I enjoy playing. All others have bad/ugly graphics and/or UI. Are there any other roguelikes with as high production value as Dungeons of Dredmor or FTL?

Toejam and Earl back on the sega genesis, sort of.  I loved the heck out of that game and didn't know it was a roguelike or even what a roguelike was - never heard the term at the time.

Spelunky and Binding of Isaac are to some degree action roguelikes I guess. I enjoy both of them, but they aren't "true" roguelikes I guess.

Offline Nanashi

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2013, 02:23:30 pm »
@Nanashi, linearity really can't be prevented in this case. I mean, I'd love it if roguelikes got the Torchlight 2 treatment, but the point is that they are like Rogue. They're generally dungeon crawls through single dungeons with permadeath and one clearly defined goal at the end. Even then, in a game like Torchlight 2 (which isn't a roguelike, but still), you don't actually get the ability to skip story bits. You just have the option of doing other dungeons or quests before you move on. The only truly nonlinear games are basically sandboxes, a la Just Cause 2. Unless you're playing a game built around screwing around, you aren't likely to ever be able to just go wherever you want. Part of what makes a good game is a solid story-based framework. It takes a lot to make up for the lack of a clear goal... and if there's no straight up clear goal to progress towards, you are no longer playing a game.

Try TOME, you'd be surprised. I was. That's why I'm asking about Gen 2.0 Roguelikes.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2013, 02:36:41 pm »
I'll keep it in mind. Perhaps I'll bookmark it for a next roguelike fix. Mostly, I'm interested in knowing how you can have a game that's truly nonlinear while also having a tangible goal. I went over some game design course material in my head after I wrote that post, and I couldn't think of a single way or example to do that.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2013, 02:53:04 pm »
I'll keep it in mind. Perhaps I'll bookmark it for a next roguelike fix. Mostly, I'm interested in knowing how you can have a game that's truly nonlinear while also having a tangible goal. I went over some game design course material in my head after I wrote that post, and I couldn't think of a single way or example to do that.

I suppose that depends on how you define "nonlinear". If you always start at one place, and your goal is always a second place, then technically, that's a line, and your game is therefore linear.

But, are games like the Elder Scrolls Series "linear" to you? Certainly there is a goal with to the game, there is a way to beat the game, but, the route you take to getting there can be VASTLY different. Two people can play the same game, as the same race, and have completely different experiences. Personally, I would call those "nonlinear".

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2013, 03:35:25 pm »
There are different ways of structuring a story, which I applied to structuring a game hypothetically.
Straight-up linear means there's only the line that you can take to your objective. Those are your modern shooter campaigns, a lot of other games like that. Goes without question that these games are linear. Roguelikes aren't even this linear, generally.
There's a network structure, where there are a lot of "rooms" linked together, and your objective or objectives are somewhere within it. You can freely move between rooms, but in the end, all it does is let you choose your path to a goal. This, to me, is the most nonlinear structure, and it's the kind of thing that I'd say Valley 2 or Elder Scrolls are closer to, in terms of how the world works. In Valley 2, you have that objective, but a large network that is the game world to navigate in order to determine how best to reach your goal. Pretty nonlinear, in that respect. In Elder Scrolls, I'd say it's more the world that's a network. From what I recall, the storyline itself is just a linear chain of missions. That's kind of why I dismissed open world games. The story and goal itself may actually end up being just a linear series of missions, with a whole load of side missions that you can do that don't really have an impact on the story at all.
There's also a foldback structure, where you can take any branch or route, but the story or levels always fold back to the same conclusion at fixed points. Thus, in the end, you're still going towards the one thing point and never stopping. This is what Mass Effect does. In the first two games, it all comes down to what you put in, what endings are available to you, so it folds back into multiple points. In mass effect 3, it folds back into one point, which splits into 3 endings.
Then, I remember something of a web, that ever-expands and branches outward forever. But, putting a goal in a mess like that means that there are only a few routes you can possibly take to it. That structure only really lends itself well to multiple-ending kinds of games. I'm pretty sure Shadow the Hedgehog is a good example of this. Every level has multiple ways to finish, and each one leads to another unique plot point, which comes down to hundreds of (extremely similar) endings.

What I was mostly getting at is, in terms of actually setting a goal, the way that you take to reach that goal will end up being more or less a straight line path, except for the very unique case I guess of Valley 1/2 and AI War. However, those games seem to have little storyline structure. You couldn't really work in a lot of dialog or cutscenes or story because of how uniquely the game can be played from person to person. Even Valley 2, as I understand it, has several foldback points that end up working out about the same way, no matter how you actually end up playing (unless you outright failed). You always have to level up your spells. You always need to get the movement upgrades. You always need to destroy the crystal and kill Demonaica (presumably). In the case of AI War, it's mostly a case of "Blow up these two buildings however you want I guess". It's very compelling, sure, but that's what it comes down to unless you go Fallen Spire, which is story-driven and structured and gives you one goal after another.
I've given it more thought last night and today, and I think what I really mean is, the more of a goal you have, the less freedom the game can offer you. If you've got a structured story to tell, you're always going to just be going down to the next level until you win. In the case of roguelikes, there's some reason that you're in the dungeon, and generally it's because something is entrenched at the deepest level. There aren't many ways to really make that nonlinear. You're always going to finish one level after another, with some slight branching and then a foldback into the stairs down to the next level. The way I figured you'd be able to make it work in a nonlinear fashion is if there are a limitless amount of dungeons and quests to hop between. You decide, "Okay, the Dredmor Dungeons are boring, I think I'll head to the Ice Caverns of Mim to recover the legendary Sword of the Familiar." Thus, you have a lot of tangible goals and you can switch between them at any time.
But then, suddenly, gameplay balance is a very real issue.

...If you stuck with this post all that time and understood it, thank you so much for that. This post is so terribly organized, because you made me really have to think and reconsider and analyze to write it.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2013, 04:07:23 pm »
Dungeons of Dredmor and FTL are the only roguelikes I enjoy playing. All others have bad/ugly graphics and/or UI. Are there any other roguelikes with as high production value as Dungeons of Dredmor or FTL?
Dredmor and FTL (and TOME) are pretty much the exceptions, 'Roguelike' and 'high production value' are not a normal sentence combination.

Offline Nanashi

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2013, 04:20:15 pm »
Dungeons of Dredmor and FTL are the only roguelikes I enjoy playing. All others have bad/ugly graphics and/or UI. Are there any other roguelikes with as high production value as Dungeons of Dredmor or FTL?
Dredmor and FTL (and TOME) are pretty much the exceptions, 'Roguelike' and 'high production value' are not a normal sentence combination.

Well, doesn't DCSS have a really obsessive fanbase?

@LaughingThesaurus:

I have my own personal game design hierarchy. It goes like this:

Fun
Elegance
Meaningfulness
Complexity/Depth <> Balance
Content <> Replayability <> Challenge

Balance can be important, but unless it's a competitive game, it takes a back seat to all of those concerns.

Fun is important because without fun, there is no game. There is only work. It's the quintessential sine qua non of gaming. Fun can exist without balance.

Elegance is tied to simplicity and good design. Unnecessary complexity is ugly if it adds nothing to the gameplay - intuitiveness is key. This is the largest barrier to many Roguelikes, MUDs, and in a way, Dwarf Fortress. Dwarf Fortress may be fun, but it is not elegant. Minecraft is elegant. So is Starcraft. Anything you have to read more than 3 paragraphs to understand had better be worth it.

Meaningfulness is overlooked because these days, people don't really believe a game should actually teach you anything. I think it's great if it does. A game that actively hones the player's skills and leads to a real-life improvement is praiseworthy. Unfortunately, educational games tend to be about as tactful as a head trauma. (except Frog Fractions)

Complexity does not have to be at odds with Elegance. Chess is both complex as well as elegant. Tactics Ogre/Final Fantasy Tactics are pretty Elegant for SLGs, while NIS' Strategy games are complicated from a meta perspective, but horribly inelegant. Too much meaningless fluff.

Balance is only important if it gets in the way of Fun. This is especially true competitively. Balance is only really important in PvP if the imbalance creates extremely unfun or one-sided situations.

The last 3 are nice to have, but are also often used as double-edged euphemisms for shallow content. Anything that relies on the player being a masochist is probably not a healthy game decision.

Offline zespri

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2013, 05:44:55 pm »
TOME looks (compared to what it used to be) visually stunning. The guys who picked it up did a real good job. I'll be trying it when I have time.

I looked at the game code after they made a complete restart 2-3 years ago. Or what is more that that? I liked pretty much the architecture, this is how I would do it if I did it. But I was not sure if they have enough perseverance to see it through. No it's apparent that they did. Well done!
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 06:01:26 pm by zespri »

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2013, 05:52:16 pm »
Foreword: I don't entirely remember what brought up this discussion actually. I dunno. I guess the point is that context doesn't matter as much to you? I forgot. There is a doozy of a message here for you though.

I'd like to take all of that information and formulate my own heirarchy, but I don't really have one. Some days, I'm in the mood for bad games that don't mean anything and that are really repetitious and inelegant. Some days, I don't have the patience for those, but I do have the patience for something really dull that's good everywhere else. Some days, I want something as complex as AI War.
But, I will comment on balance. There are cases where balance is an issue in single player games. I've got two examples for you, that I feel the games benefit from having fixed.

Borderlands 2: The infamous Bee shield. The Bee is of a variety of shield that boosts your damage, but consumes shield energy to fire. However, the Bee costs no shield energy at all. The shield has something like 20k capacity, which is average. It has a 40k or so recharge, which is insanely high, and a +20k damage per shot with no amp drain. This means that, as long as you haven't taken a hit, every single bullet you shoot does 20,000 or so extra damage. This is absurd, and it's something that enables players to kill superbosses in seconds. Less, if paired with a legendary shotgun called the Conference Call. This is something so brokenly overpowered that it discouraged the very thing that the game encouraged-- Multiplayer. If you didn't need help, or cooperation, to actually win the big optional fights, why bother interacting at all? Why create a strategy or skill build when you can literally shoot twice and win? There are bigger issues, certainly, but dropping down that capacity and amp damage, I feel greatly benefited the game, even though it's a co-op only game. Why? Because now people actually use a variety of equipment, and look for friends to do Terramorphous runs with. I don't like the 'raid boss' format of the game, but at least they decided to keep the design philosophy somewhat intact. Some equipment can be a little stronger or weaker here and there, but the Bee was an absurd spike in strength that needed to be dialed down.
Metroid Prime 2: The Darkburst and Sunburst. These cost 30 ammo and 10 missiles to fire, and unupgraded, you can only fire each one once. The darkburst does ridiculous damage, while the sunburst is basically the classic Ball Lightning from Diablo in first person shooter form. The problem is, the darkburst is slow, and the sunburst does pathetic damage. Although, that's not the worst of it. The worst of it is the fact that you can use a charged dark beam to freeze almost any enemy, and then fire a missile to instantly kill the enemy. This only costs 5 ammo and 1 missile. Guess what the winning option is, in terms of making a complete killing on the variety of ways you can kill things? Freeze-shatter. This has always been something of an issue, but Prime 1 encourages you to use other beams by at least not making them consume ammo. Prime 2 doesn't have the decency to even make them more powerful when making them cost ammo.

I mean, I guess balance shouldn't be top of the list, but it should at least hit middle on the list, maybe a bit higher than that. An improperly balanced game (I'm not talking tweaks such that it's all perfect, I'm talking dialing back the ridiculous spikes) will result in a stale game, once you figure out the way that it should be played. If there are more ways to play the game, you can keep coming back and playing it the other ways. This is one of the beautiful things about Trine, actually. You can generally bypass any obstacle with any character, so you can always revisit levels and try something new. However, it's not perfect, so the game has virtually no penalty for dying. Pretty win-win for any player involved who wants to explore the way things can interact.

Offline Panopticon

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2013, 07:39:18 pm »
I really enjoy TOME a lot too.

Another one I love is Brogue.

At first glance it looks like an old school ASCII roguelike, but it uses a really innovative and immersive per-pixel lighting system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNYjh0B9WnU

The game can be played with traditional roguelike controls or it can be played with a completely mouse driven point and click gameplay and menus. It's a very streamlined roguelike, but this is a case of less is more where dungeon generation is very interesting and there are tons of crazy emergent interactions. It can have a very Raiders of the Lost Ark kind of feel to it at times as events spiral off into insane sequences of gameplay.

Check it out, I think it's one of the better roguelikes out.

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 02:37:17 am »
Brogue is basically my roguelike of choice these days. It's an excellent distillation of a lot of the best bits of the genre, with none of the spoiler-reliant gameplay of Nethack and ADOM, and without the lower-division-college-classwork required to master Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.

I highly recommend it to anyone, even the types who get all squirrelly the minute they see an ASCII interface.

Offline Billick

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2013, 12:42:37 pm »
TOME looks really cool, I'll give it a shot!   Dungeons of Dredmor was really my introduction roguelikes, and I'd been kind of oblivious to their existence previously.  I've played Dwarf Fortress, FTL, Spelunky, BoI, etc, but I'd like to get into some more "pure" roguelikes. 

Offline Panopticon

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2013, 04:59:02 pm »
I've been playing a lot of Teleglitch.

It's not a pure roguelike, it's a top down shooter with a really cool crafting system. Levels, loot and monsters are procedurally put together. Rooms and hallways are handcrafted and assembled by the level generation, so you get different layouts and monster placements and groupings but it feels thoughtful. The crafting system is pretty great, allowing you to create makeshift weapons, upgrade standard weapons and create all kinds of fun and useful gear.

It feels a bit like a top down mashup of Quake II and maybe System Shock or something.

Offline Panopticon

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2013, 07:28:27 pm »
Forgive the double post but UnReal World has moved away from their paid licensing model into a donations supported free distribution model to speed up development. It's a really cool and unique roguelike that focuses on wilderness survival in a world based on iron age Finnish folklore. It's an open ended sandbox where you can hunt, trap, forage, craft, trade, build, fight or whatever else you can figure out. It comes with a tileset and some funky and endearing digital photos of the dev and his friends running around in the woods. The interface is pretty easy to get around in, with some limited mouse functionality.

I've been playing it on and off for a while and it's pretty cool. Nothing like a game where you can break your leg falling out of a tree and then freeze to death trying to drag yourself to safety.

Offline doctorfrog

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Re: TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2013, 01:45:40 am »
Oryx has released his latest build of Brogue with his special tileset: http://oryxdesignlab.com/news/2013/2/27/brogue-172-tiles-version

I personally prefer the ASCII version, but the tiled version may be more palatable to newcomers.