TOME 1.0! - and other Roguelikes.

[Nanashi]

Now I'm usually pretty jaded on Roguelikes, having played way too much Slash-'EM and ADOM (not so much Nethack) variants, but lately, I've been wasting way too much time on TOME ever since it went 1.0; which is kind of weird because I wasn't really that fond of DCSS. This is probably because TOME actually has the first GUI I've seen in a roguelike that didn't send me screaming in the opposite direction of my keyboard. All hail right-click mouse menus! It also has a tutorial that actually works, which is something IMO most roguelikes really need since they tend to drop you in the middle of a dungeon and expect you to re-learn all the keyboard bindings.

I'd probably actually make more progress in the game if I wasn't rushing back to the character creation screen every time I unlocked some new class.

It occurred to me though, that I really haven't been exploring roguelikes in the last 6 years, so maybe such fluidity is actually more common with modern game development - are there any really good Generation 2.0 roguelikes I've been missing lately? I'm open for recommendations. I've not actually tried Dungeons of Dreadeyebrows because actually paying for a Roguelike seems to kind of break the spirit of the genre and it seemed cornier than an Iowan farmer.

(Note: I've played FTL, yes, but don't really consider it a roguelike as much as a mini-RTS)

[Hearteater]

I've enjoyed the alpha of Desktop Dungeons which is free.  They are in beta now.  It is supposed to be available on Steam, iPhone and Android.  I've been strongly considering picking it up as a phone app, since it really fits as a play-on-the-go game.  I'll have to check out TOME though.

[Nanashi]

Ah, I've played that. Desktop Dungeons can be pretty fun, but I think of it as Windows minesweeper/solitaire. It's very bare-bones for a Roguelike, but it's meant to be that way, since people aren't always in the mood for a hardcore Roguelike. Definitely one of the more polished ones, presentationwise, though.

I'd highly recommend checking TOME out; ever since it went 1.0, it's almost like a different game. It's a gen 2.0 Roguelike that evolved from Angband, and spent most of its 10 years of age fading in and out of existence. I think like 2 years ago, it ended up developing its own engine along the way, and now it's almost absolutely nothing like what it was 6 years ago - It's not even in Middle-earth anymore. There's also some pretty good lore and a few really original dungeons (I have a love-hate relationship with the originality of the sandworm one).

Thankfully, it's not one of the claustrophobic "there's just 1 big dungeon" type roguelikes that tend to feel a bit generic to me, since it revolves around a world map, sort of like ADOM before it got bitten by the horrible Kickstarter bug.

[zespri]

I've enjoyed the alpha of Desktop Dungeons which is free.  They are in beta now.  It is supposed to be available on Steam, iPhone and Android.  I've been strongly considering picking it up as a phone app, since it really fits as a play-on-the-go game.  I'll have to check out TOME though.

Desktop Dungeons is golden. The new version is not free and strictly speaking I would not call it a rogue-like, but I enjoy it a lot.

It's not even in Middle-earth anymore.

I thought that ME in TOME stood for Middle-Earth?

[madcow]

I love dungeons of dredmor, quite fun. It's also cheap - the cost of a fast-food combo, (and during steam sales is the cost of just a coke or coffee).

But then again, I don't hold to a standard that rogue-likes must be free. If it's a good game, I'll pay for it regardless of genre. Though different strokes for different folks. I've tried some of the free roguelikes before and could never stick with them, the complexity to learn them is just too frustrating - I'm sure they're good games once you get into them. Dredmor was the first I really stuck with, due to its UI, humor, and the skill system. I might try out TOME though.

[LaughingThesaurus]

The thing about roguelikes is that as far as I can tell, there are great ones that ARE free. So, in order to compare, you have to think.
"Well, is it better?"
"Yeah, quite a bit."
"How much is it?"
"5$"
"That's far more than I paid for Nethack."
Suddenly, that 5$ pricetag isn't as appealing when compared to 0$... even if the game's better or prettier.

[madcow]

The way I look at it is...

Does it have a UI?
How long do I need to invest to learn how to play this?

It's the same with dwarf fortress, I've tried to learn/play it, but I just can't no matter how much I want to. The game is just so unintuitive that it's not fun to learn. Trying to learn rogue-likes before Dredmor was like that, and if I could pay $5 to get a version of DF that's maybe not as good, but I could actually play - I would do it in a heartbeat.

I can see how if you already know hardcore rogue-likes, it might not seem as worthwhile though.

[Nanashi]

I thought that ME in TOME stood for Middle-Earth?

It did! I think they were afraid of getting another Cease-and-Desist letter, so they changed it (again). I did some checking up on it and apparently it was originally a Pern-based roguelike until they got a C&D from Anne McCaffrey's legal team, then they changed it to Middle-earth, but then the LotR movies came out and Tolkien started getting popular, so they changed it again just-in-case.

TOME actually has an optional adventure mode for people actually interested in seeing the story (since there's one) - over the hardcore true Roguelike mode. I think it gives a limited number of extra lives, which can be pretty useful. It also seems far more loot-based than usual, since enemies actually drop good stuff pretty often. I'd definitely give it a go if you have free time - there's 2 tutorials, but you can just jump in the game (and die horribly) with a mouse since the mouse controls are pretty intuitive.

Is Dungeons of Dredmor just one linear dungeon? I've kind of gotten really tired of linear one-dungeon games; it's why I can't even play Grimrock, which is supposedly a shame.

[madcow]

The latest expansion has some sort of mini realms you can visit if you find passwords to reach them. I haven't really played the latest dredmor expansion so I'm not sure how they work and couldn't tell you more about them. I just know that it also removed most of the pains of inventory management by letting you drop all your crap there as a stash.

In the base game there are a few portals that take you to bonus levels that are much harder than the rest of the level (basically deathtraps whenever I went through them).

Other than that, it's just one linear dungeon with randomly generated layouts etc. One thing that isn't random that I believe is in other roguelikes are potions/wands. A certain potion/wand/consumable always has the same effect across multiple playthroughs - sometimes the effect is obvious based on the name, sometimes not. Likewise there's no secret cursed armor/weapons. All stat effects from equipment are known.

[zespri]

Is Dungeons of Dredmor just one linear dungeon? I've kind of gotten really tired of linear one-dungeon games; it's why I can't even play Grimrock, which is supposedly a shame.

How is Grimrock "linear"? It's maze-like.

[Nanashi]

Is Dungeons of Dredmor just one linear dungeon? I've kind of gotten really tired of linear one-dungeon games; it's why I can't even play Grimrock, which is supposedly a shame.

How is Grimrock "linear"? It's maze-like.

Linear: You go from floor 1 to floor 2 to floor 3 > all the way until the final boss floor. Take for example: Etrian Odyssey or Strange Journey. There's different strata, but all floors are visited in a linear order. You can't skip any floor if it's not particularly interesting or if you feel you need to grind a bit more.

[madcow]

You can actually skip floors in Dredmor in that each level has about 8 or so stairs in each direction. So you can typically find them fairly fast if there is one level that particularly is giving you challenge.

[Aklyon]

This might be a dumb question, but is there a way to use the TOME cursor outside of tome? It looks pretty neat and I kinda wanted to use it as my mouse cursor.

[LaughingThesaurus]

@Nanashi, linearity really can't be prevented in this case. I mean, I'd love it if roguelikes got the Torchlight 2 treatment, but the point is that they are like Rogue. They're generally dungeon crawls through single dungeons with permadeath and one clearly defined goal at the end. Even then, in a game like Torchlight 2 (which isn't a roguelike, but still), you don't actually get the ability to skip story bits. You just have the option of doing other dungeons or quests before you move on. The only truly nonlinear games are basically sandboxes, a la Just Cause 2. Unless you're playing a game built around screwing around, you aren't likely to ever be able to just go wherever you want. Part of what makes a good game is a solid story-based framework. It takes a lot to make up for the lack of a clear goal... and if there's no straight up clear goal to progress towards, you are no longer playing a game.

[Kahuna]

Dungeons of Dredmor and FTL are the only roguelikes I enjoy playing. All others have bad/ugly graphics and/or UI. Are there any other roguelikes with as high production value as Dungeons of Dredmor or FTL?