The worst space game ever?

[eRe4s3r]

saying that Mass Effect for example, just reiterates established Sci-FI tropes is unfair, no game before or after ever did that with such polish.

Wat. No. This isn't true at all. Star Control 2 came out in 199-freaking-2 and does science fiction miles better. Mass Effect's science fiction was clumsily wrapped around Bioware's "go to four places and then a fifth for the final boss" plot. Now production values? You're absolutely right, and I say that as someone who likes Mass Effect.

But you can't compare those 2 games like that imo. One is an adventure/shoot-em up the other is an RPG with 3rd person combat. At first glance you might compare them as space related sci-fi games, and there I would even agree that Star Control 2 had more interesting.. well, stuff happening. But these 2 games tingle completely different urges for me. Star Control 2 was a game about exploration and survival. Mass Effect was for me always a game about Characters, Party members and the Reapers. (Even though you don't actually ever fight them in ME2 they remain an overarching plot element). That they gameified the progression is thanks to the game coming to consoles (Where that is sadly a thing for AAA titles that needs tons of sales) and is of course a weakness, but all things considered Mass Effect is one of 3 games where I still remember the plot, all the party members and everything major happening. Playing through 3 Games means a lot of investment in a game world and story, after all.

And the sign of a AAA game is not innovation, but polishing an idea so much that it becomes a big budget game.

And you shouldn't forget that you can be judging Mass Effect now years after it concluded, when Mass Effect 1 came out, that was an absolutely fresh experience.

Sorry if it seems like I'm beating on you, but the sign of a AAA game is marketing dollars. Spore and Sim City 5 were AAA games. Were they polished? On no one's planet. And it's absolutely fair to judge Mass Effect now, people still play it now. Good game design is timeless,  which is why people fall in love with games made before they were born.

(Also if you think the IS is repetitive now just wait until you get fighters. Ridiculously overpowered. Still, even if it never quite gets past rock-paper-scissors+chicken, I actually found later combat exciting.)

You needn't worry ,) I do not ever get angry over someone leading a discussion with me ^^

Well part of AAA titles is marketing, but the other part is that it has to appeal to the masses And that always leads to certain things that are in these games. Sim City 5 and Spore are good examples of what it means when you apply AAA standards to games that should NEVER have had them. Spore and Sim City 5 also are good examples for what a horrible mistake dumbing down gameplay and themes for the goal of appealing to casual audiences can be.

It must be repeated that to me gameplay is not always paramount. I love playing Visual Novels more than I love a game that's pure gameplay. Though I do like simulations. But if you put me in front of Star Control 2 and Mass Effect assuming I hadn't played either, my first game would always be the one that draws me into a self-contained immersing story and world with interesting party members and dialogs.

It's interesting that some people consider story in games like books. To me that are 2 completely different things. A book (and I have read about as many as I played games ,p) involves my own fantasy, it immerses me in my own fantasy based on text. But games show me a fantasy and immerse me into that, leaving me mental capacity to listen to voice actors look at pretty things and shoot things. And make decisions in game that do in fact often lead to tiny differences Renegade and Paragon playthroughs are pretty different, not VERY different, but enough to feel like 2 different stories.



Final note: This topic perfectly illustrates why devs are well advised to know their target audience. Sim City 5 was a mess not because it had lots of cash, but because they wanted to draw in new players, not fans of Sim City 1234 ;p Cities Skylines is the opposite, taking all that was good from Sim City 5 and applying it to a game that is more like Sim City 1234. That also makes it substantially easier (Sim City 5, despite being marketed to casual audiences, was a very difficult game because of the traffic and agent based simulation which lead to TONS of problems that players had to adapt to).

And personally I wish more games like Mass Effect would exist. And when I say Mass Effect is UNIQUE then I mean it in that sense that no other sci-fi game satisfied these particular needs and wants for me. Star Control 2 was fun, until I played it through. But I remember literally NOTHING of it. Mass Effect I played through twice each game, and I remember every major plot point in that, including names of characters (Which I am notoriously bad at usually). Only other game that compares to ME1/2/3 is BG1/2/TOB .. at least for me


And regarding IS
Maybe it gets better when I get fighters, but currently I am at that point where you unlock the pirate destroyers... ;p

[Mánagarmr]

Eraser, I'm going to have to disagree a bit with the Simcity/Skylines comparison. Skylines is also, to a much more sensible degree, using agents. All citizens are actual agents in Skylines, whereas water, power and pollution are not.

[Misery]

If that's how you like games, that's fine. In a lot of cases, I'm quite the opposite--it takes a good story to really get me engaged with the game. Stuff like, say, One Finger Death Punch are quite fun, but I usually don't come back very often after I've had my fun, though I still will pick one up from time to time if I just need a quick dose of fun. I like an engaging story just as much as I like engaging gameplay.

Of course, games meet with varying degrees of success when it comes to telling a good story. Yeah, if you want a story, there's always books as you say, but I don't think that precludes a game having a good storyline. A lot of games don't, but I don't think it's true that no games tell as good of stories as novels do. Matter of opinion there.

Plus, for me, experiencing a story through a game is different from a book. There's music, which, if used properly, can augment any given scene, visuals and such, and a different sort of pacing than you'd find in a movie or a book. Your choices having an effect on the story (where it actually happens, not like Skyrim where what you do is basically irrelevant) can make events more powerful too since you have a stake in what happens.

If you don't think any games have successfully accomplished this, then fine. I just disagree. I've read a lot of books and written a novel myself, and I certainly understand what you mean when you say that books are better at telling a deep story because the author generally gets more creative freedom, but playing a story-based game does provide a different experience and I don't think it's any less enjoyable. Just because someone else has told a better story somewhere else doesn't mean that another story isn't worth reading.

It might make my own arguement make more sense to simply add "I have zero patience", which I mean sincerely.  Cutscenes and talky bits are slow.  Granted, I tend to think EVERYTHING is slow, but still.  I can read dramatically faster than characters can speak or scenes can happen (particularly in these days of super dramatic drawn-out scenes). 

It's one of the reasons why I get into bullet-hell shmups so much, or something like Nuclear Throne:  Stuff just... keeps.... coming.  And tends to fill the screen.  That and I need a challenge to hold my attention.  I've always found that story-based games are too easy, because if they're hard, the player might not get to experience it all;  I think that's what started my dislike of them, because I just get bored and end up not looking forward to later parts.

And with so many cliches and things repeated in major games over and over and over and over (small band of random idiots somehow confronts and defeats some huge, world-ending threat after an incredibly nonsensical series of events, in JRPGs, for instance) that I usually just dont feel like I"m missing anything.   That I dont care one bit about things like voice actors (seriously, name *any* one of them and I'll have no clue who you're talking about and will lose interest in the conversation instantly) and am not impressed by graphics or flashy effects doesnt help one bit.

[eRe4s3r]

Eraser, I'm going to have to disagree a bit with the Simcity/Skylines comparison. Skylines is also, to a much more sensible degree, using agents. All citizens are actual agents in Skylines, whereas water, power and pollution are not.

Indeed.

But unlike Sim City 5, Skylines has no day/night cycle or dynamic schedule for citizen activities. The agent simulation in Sim City 5 was actually pretty advanced (hence it was limited in it's city area so massively). The only thing Skylines simulates to a great degree is traffic and movement, but movement and traffic are very easy to simulate. Since it's a basic pathing problem. In Sim City 5 you also had to worry about GOODS (agents) getting to FACTORIES and Worker (Agents) producing products (Agents) that then get distributed via drones (Agents). And day night means you have rush-hours, we should be very thankful Skylines doesn't simulate that.

The depth of the agent simulation in Sim City 5 is extreme And imo it was too extreme, overused and abused. ;P

[Mánagarmr]

It might make my own arguement make more sense to simply add "I have zero patience", which I mean sincerely.  Cutscenes and talky bits are slow.  Granted, I tend to think EVERYTHING is slow, but still.  I can read dramatically faster than characters can speak or scenes can happen (particularly in these days of super dramatic drawn-out scenes). 

The way you describe yourself is basically like someone with ADD on crack. I mean, I have ADHD myself, so I know how it is to be impatient and easily distracted when bored, but the stuff you describe just sounds insane ^^

[Mánagarmr]

Eraser, I'm going to have to disagree a bit with the Simcity/Skylines comparison. Skylines is also, to a much more sensible degree, using agents. All citizens are actual agents in Skylines, whereas water, power and pollution are not.

Indeed.

But unlike Sim City 5, Skylines has no day/night cycle or dynamic schedule for citizen activities. The agent simulation in Sim City 5 was actually pretty advanced (hence it was limited in it's city area so massively). The only thing Skylines simulates to a great degree is traffic and movement, but movement and traffic are very easy to simulate. Since it's a basic pathing problem. In Sim City 5 you also had to worry about GOODS (agents) getting to FACTORIES and Worker (Agents) producing products (Agents) that then get distributed via drones (Agents). And day night means you have rush-hours, we should be very thankful Skylines doesn't simulate that.

The depth of the agent simulation in Sim City 5 is extreme And imo it was too extreme, overused and abused. ;P

Typical case of realism < fun?

[eRe4s3r]

Eraser, I'm going to have to disagree a bit with the Simcity/Skylines comparison. Skylines is also, to a much more sensible degree, using agents. All citizens are actual agents in Skylines, whereas water, power and pollution are not.

Indeed.

But unlike Sim City 5, Skylines has no day/night cycle or dynamic schedule for citizen activities. The agent simulation in Sim City 5 was actually pretty advanced (hence it was limited in it's city area so massively). The only thing Skylines simulates to a great degree is traffic and movement, but movement and traffic are very easy to simulate. Since it's a basic pathing problem. In Sim City 5 you also had to worry about GOODS (agents) getting to FACTORIES and Worker (Agents) producing products (Agents) that then get distributed via drones (Agents). And day night means you have rush-hours, we should be very thankful Skylines doesn't simulate that.

The depth of the agent simulation in Sim City 5 is extreme And imo it was too extreme, overused and abused. ;P

Typical case of realism < fun?

Indeed, that and using a hammer for things that aren't nails.. or agents for water/electricity/sewage (which are all load/pressure simulations, and not agent simulations) if you wanted to simulate that that is...

[Misery]

It might make my own arguement make more sense to simply add "I have zero patience", which I mean sincerely.  Cutscenes and talky bits are slow.  Granted, I tend to think EVERYTHING is slow, but still.  I can read dramatically faster than characters can speak or scenes can happen (particularly in these days of super dramatic drawn-out scenes). 

The way you describe yourself is basically like someone with ADD on crack. I mean, I have ADHD myself, so I know how it is to be impatient and easily distracted when bored, but the stuff you describe just sounds insane ^^

Actually, I'm autistic, which can... sometimes be similar.  Specifically though, I dont have Asperger's, the one that people like to repeat endlessly.  I have a different sort, and some of my so-called symptoms are.... the best word I can find is "reversed".  Makes things kinda strange and warped.  It has some advantages though;  my reaction time and general processing speed is a bit ridiculous, though the downside of that is that most things seem at least somewhat slow.  Useful in gaming though, that's for sure.  There's certainly other problems though.... my memory is absolutely terrible and I can forget things that happened a minute ago (NOT useful in gaming), and IRL I"m about as social as a brick.

I dont normally explain that bit or mention it (among other things), because too many people are bloody stupid and become total asshats about it, particularly in the shrieking vortex of idiocy that is the internet.... but then, this isnt an average forum, at least to me anyway.  We dont even get flamewars here!  Nobody yells at anyone else!  Bloody amazing, really.  There arent any other forums I go to where that is the case.   Heck, most places, this very topic would have had at least a couple of people shouting f-bombs at each other by now. 

I've forgotten what else I was going to say.

[Mánagarmr]

Actually, I'm autistic, which can... sometimes be similar.  Specifically though, I dont have Asperger's, the one that people like to repeat endlessly.  I have a different sort, and some of my so-called symptoms are.... the best word I can find is "reversed".  Makes things kinda strange and warped.  It has some advantages though;  my reaction time and general processing speed is a bit ridiculous, though the downside of that is that most things seem at least somewhat slow.  Useful in gaming though, that's for sure.  There's certainly other problems though.... my memory is absolutely terrible and I can forget things that happened a minute ago (NOT useful in gaming), and IRL I"m about as social as a brick.

I dont normally explain that bit or mention it (among other things), because too many people are bloody stupid and become total asshats about it, particularly in the shrieking vortex of idiocy that is the internet.... but then, this isnt an average forum, at least to me anyway.  We dont even get flamewars here!  Nobody yells at anyone else!  Bloody amazing, really.  There arent any other forums I go to where that is the case.   Heck, most places, this very topic would have had at least a couple of people shouting f-bombs at each other by now. 

I've forgotten what else I was going to say.

Well, autism has about 6 billion ways of manifesting itself. My sister has "atypical autism", my one girlfriend is an aspie and my other girlfriend's ADHD like me. So yeah...I've seen my fair share of "diagnoses". I just found it fascinating to hear...read you "talk" about it.

[Pumpkin]

I dont normally explain that bit or mention it (among other things), because too many people are bloody stupid and become total asshats about it, particularly in the shrieking vortex of idiocy that is the internet.... but then, this isnt an average forum, at least to me anyway.  We dont even get flamewars here!  Nobody yells at anyone else!  Bloody amazing, really.  There arent any other forums I go to where that is the case.   Heck, most places, this very topic would have had at least a couple of people shouting f-bombs at each other by now.

Read this.

Heck, most places, this very topic would have had at least a couple of people shouting f-bombs at each other by now.

True. I never noticed how true. Thank you for reminding me (us) how peaceful this place is.

Sorry for interrupting the "worst *** ever" topic. I'm out.

[Wingflier]

Are we forgetting about Drox Operative?

[Shrugging Khan]

Are we forgetting about Drox Operative?

What about Drox Operative?
It's ugly as sin, has nothing at all to do with space, and the ARPG play is pretty overused...but apart from that, it at least tries to shake things up a bit.

[chemical_art]

Heck, most places, this very topic would have had at least a couple of people shouting f-bombs at each other by now. 

This is a saving grace of this forum, yes. When I hear most people bash my "pet game" I would arm the cannons and prepare for war. But here? "Yes, everything you say is valid [even if I don't agree]" Because everyone has the decency to give me the same benefit. This forum is so relaxed I don't even feel the need to express "I disagree" It is enough to state"I can see what you say"

[mrhanman]

Are we forgetting about Drox Operative?

What about Drox Operative?
It's ugly as sin, has nothing at all to do with space, and the ARPG play is pretty overused...but apart from that, it at least tries to shake things up a bit.

I've only played the demo, but I thought the graphics and style were at least adequate.  Certainly not ugly, anyway.  And what do you mean it has nothing to do with space?  You fly a spaceship of some sort around from planet to planet.  That's pretty space-y, right?

[doctorfrog]

Space roguelikes are pretty rare, and have generally preserved all the stat-driven tactical combat simulation that modern RPGs have seen fit to do away with.

This one, I might buy, once it comes down in price (with Shrapnel Games publishing it, never gonna happen, though): http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Ibology/AI/AI_page.html

I think the best three games set in space I've ever played are Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (not interested in quibbling over whether this is a space game since it is terrestrially based), System Shock 2, and Star Control 2.

Everything else seems to fall short of those earlier play experiences, and nothing seems to have really leapt ahead of them. It's not enough to play the same thing with better graphics, games need to evolve, not just get prettier and more refined, or with one or two novel twists.

Also, I don't think I can really enjoy a space flight sim in the year of our lord 2015 if I can't walk around in my ship, and also land on planets and stations and walk around there as well. You can have Elite Dangerous and the endless vapor that is Star Citizen, I'm willing to wait another decade to get the real space games that everyone else in this thread really wishes existed.

It's gonna be a couple generations or more.

The next space game I will be playing, though, is Space Shuttle.