The 'League of Legends' team of scientists trying to cure toxic behavior online

[Volatar]

And there's still in-game BM, which from what I've seen is pretty terrible in LoL at least. The community is just generally intolerant of others' mess-ups

Ah good, Wingflier explained the team feedback part far better than I ever could (as I am a super-laid back person when it comes it this stuff).

LoL is actually on the better end of MOBA communities. The primary DotA community moved quickly to DotA2, while LoL has pulled in people from a much wider audience, most of whom had not played such a game before.

In addition LoL works hard to shape their players. They incentivise good behavior (this is recent and it's long term effects are unknown), allow people to opt out of communication easily, don't have voice chat, and most importantly are very, very harsh on punishments for bad behavior. Saying "gg noobs" at the end of a match is a bannable offense.

Only a handful of my games in LoL have had jarks in them. About half of my DotA2 games have had one or more jerks. My personal experience is not indicative of the whole, but it is the source of what I think of the games respective communities.

On top of that, lets compare LoL and DotA2 real quick in gameplay. When you screw up and die in LoL, you give the enemy some money, lose a bit of potential money from your lane farm, and possibly lose your tower. Mostly your death just benefits the enemy. When you screw up and die in DotA2, you take all of the above, and on top of it lose a portion of your personal money pool. You get weaker AND your opponent gets stronger, facilitating further snowballing. In addition in DotA2 the mistakes themselves are more likely to get you killed due to the higher lethality and faster pace of the game.

Failures hurt you and your team more in DotA2 than in LoL, and this contributes to your team paying attention and criticising you for your failures more.

[keith.lamothe]

*scribbles note-to-self: don't join Wingflier's game

[Volatar]

*scribbles note-to-self: don't join Wingflier's game

I made a mental note of that myself as well.

[Wingflier]

But do you think I'm being unreasonable by expecting people who join a team-based matchmaking game,that can last for over an hour, and which you're not allowed to leave or concede, to play their best?

I mean if I could just leave whenever I want like in pretty much any other competitive video game, I would never get frustrated with anybody, I would just leave if my team was throwing.

[keith.lamothe]

But do you think I'm being unreasonable by expecting people who join a team-based matchmaking game,that can last for over an hour, and which you're not allowed to leave or concede, to play their best?

No, it's not unreasonable to expect that.  That doesn't mean it's ok to abuse the people not trying their best (i.e. failing to meet your reasonable expecation), but I don't know exactly how you handle that part.

The other wrinkle is that people who really are trying their best, but failing to meet the expectation of "play well", also catch abuse in many cases.  This can dissuade them from getting enough practice such that "playing their best" generally means "playing well".

And, of course, many people catch abuse simply because other members of their team perceive that they are not playing well, which is something the person may have very nearly no control over.

The game itself, I'd be happy to try my hand at getting good at over a few months.  Challenge can be fun for me.  But I'd really rather not deal with that gauntlet of people.

[Wingflier]

No, it's not unreasonable to expect that.  That doesn't mean it's ok to abuse the people not trying their best (i.e. failing to meet your reasonable expecation), but I don't know exactly how you handle that part.

Well I generally try to let my frustration out, but not be abusive in the process.

For example if we're getting ganked a lot, and I'm the carry, and nobody is buying wards I might say:

"Can somebody buy wards please?"

If people continue to ignore me I might say:

"We have 3 freaking supports, can one of you buy wards? Holy crap."

If the team isn't working well together or coming together for team fights I might say in a frustrated tone:

"Can we stop going off alone and doing our own thing please? We could win teamfights if we stuck together."

If someone on my team does something EXTREMELY stupid I might say,

"Are you serious dude?"

I guess my point is that I still get verbally frustrated, but I try not to single anybody out, or pick on any one person to vent my frustration on.  I try to spread it out equally across my team so that nobody feels personally attacked, and in the hopes that my frustration can possibly make us work better together.

On the flip side, I also give credit where credit is due.  I often say things like "Good job" and "You rock" when somebody is a really good player, or when they do something really good like get first blood or have wonderful ward placement the entire match.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I try to be somewhat fair in my praise and criticism, but even in a game where I am heavily critical, I try not to single anybody out.  In the worst case scenarios I might say "This entire team sucks" then afk in base.  I find myself AFKing in base a lot actually, because after 9 years I can typically tell whether a team has what it takes to win the game, and I won't waste my time if they don't.  I think I'd rather AFK in base and do something else than elevate to the point that I'm verbally assaulting people though, so I think it's a good compromise.

The other wrinkle is that people who really are trying their best, but failing to meet the expectation of "play well", also catch abuse in many cases.  This can dissuade them from getting enough practice such that "playing their best" generally means "playing well".

Sometimes it is hard to tell whether someone is trying their best and they're just new/bad, or whether someone just isn't taking it seriously.  However, new players typically apologize when they make a mistake.  Typically all it takes is one apology for me to realize the person is really trying, and from that point on I'm generally very supportive and understanding of their mistakes. 

Once again, even if someone is just flat-out horrible or just having a bad game, I try really hard not to single them out and make them feel attacked.  I don't know if that helps but it's the best idea I have right now.

[Volatar]

So I guess what I'm saying is that I try to be somewhat fair in my praise and criticism, but even in a game where I am heavily critical, I try not to single anybody out.  In the worst case scenarios I might say "This entire team sucks" then afk in base.  I find myself AFKing in base a lot actually, because after 9 years I can typically tell whether a team has what it takes to win the game, and I won't waste my time if they don't. 

That is absolutely abysmal sportsmanship.

I think I'd rather AFK in base and do something else than elevate to the point that I'm verbally assaulting people though, so I think it's a good compromise.

If you do not have the self control to prevent that, you do not have the self control required for good sportsmanship in MOBA's.

[Wingflier]

I guess I don't define "sportsmanship" as wasting your time until the game is over.

And of course I think it's also somewhat a rebellion against Valve for not adding a concede to the game.  In LoL or HoN I would just vote to concede a lost game, and most the time my team would probably agree.  In this game you don't have that option, so everyone is under the impression that you should fight (i.e. waste your time) to the bitter end.

The thing is, you use the term "sportsmanship", but it isn't a sport, it's a video game.  I'm not getting paid to do this, and I'm not part of a tournament (in DotA tournaments you can concede), I'm just playing to win and have fun.  Once I've decided I'm not going to win, and I'm no longer having fun, then like ANY OTHER video game, I should be able to leave or at least concede with my whole team.  Since that option is absent, I just take the best alternative.

[Volatar]

I guess I don't define "sportsmanship" as wasting your time until the game is over.

And of course I think it's also somewhat a rebellion against Valve for not adding a concede to the game.  In LoL or HoN I would just vote to concede a lost game, and most the time my team would probably agree.  In this game you don't have that option, so everyone is under the impression that you should fight (i.e. waste your time) to the bitter end.

The thing is, you use the term "sportsmanship", but it isn't a sport, it's a video game.  I'm not getting paid to do this, and I'm not part of a tournament (in DotA tournaments you can concede), I'm just playing to win and have fun.  Once I've decided I'm not going to win, and I'm no longer having fun, then like ANY OTHER video game, I should be able to leave or at least concede with my whole team.  Since that option is absent, I just take the best alternative.

Sportsmanship applies to games in general, be they sports, video games, board games, Dungeons and Dragons, whatever. It has nothing to do with sports.

I did not know that Valve had neglected a surrender vote. I retract my accusation in light of that fact.

They really should put that in...

[Wingflier]

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.  Generally if my team doesn't pass the surrender vote, I will continue playing out of fairness, even if I think it's a lost cause.  Now, I'm not even sure what to do lol.  Unfortunately in this genre, the game can be over long before it ends ;p

[keith.lamothe]

When I know I can't win a multi-person game, I like to pick some other goal (often off-the-wall and having nothing to do with the rules) and go after that.  It helps me maintain interest and not drag the others down (depending on the goal), but I don't think that would be well received in a MOBA

[Coppermantis]

But do you think I'm being unreasonable by expecting people who join a team-based matchmaking game,that can last for over an hour, and which you're not allowed to leave or concede, to play their best?

I mean if I could just leave whenever I want like in pretty much any other competitive video game, I would never get frustrated with anybody, I would just leave if my team was throwing.

Wait, you can't ever leave the game mid-play in DotA? That seems like a silly design, I see how it prevents people griefing but then it's just possible to AFK like you do, whether it is with malicious intent or not. In Starcraft, if someone leaves then allies get control of their units, so if you don't want to play anymore you can just leave and not completely screw over your allies.

Perhaps in MOBAs, this wouldn't work since the champion requires a lot of focus, especially if they're pushing opposite lanes. But I still think it might be better than having one champion sit entirely unused. Alternatively, if you leave maybe you are replaced with one of those nice bots that Valve is developing. I believe that is how Awesomenauts does it, which has the added perk of allowing drop-in for players to join existing games that have lost a player.

[Volatar]

But do you think I'm being unreasonable by expecting people who join a team-based matchmaking game,that can last for over an hour, and which you're not allowed to leave or concede, to play their best?

I mean if I could just leave whenever I want like in pretty much any other competitive video game, I would never get frustrated with anybody, I would just leave if my team was throwing.

Wait, you can't ever leave the game mid-play in DotA? That seems like a silly design, I see how it prevents people griefing but then it's just possible to AFK like you do, whether it is with malicious intent or not. In Starcraft, if someone leaves then allies get control of their units, so if you don't want to play anymore you can just leave and not completely screw over your allies.

Perhaps in MOBAs, this wouldn't work since the champion requires a lot of focus, especially if they're pushing opposite lanes. But I still think it might be better than having one champion sit entirely unused. Alternatively, if you leave maybe you are replaced with one of those nice bots that Valve is developing. I believe that is how Awesomenauts does it, which has the added perk of allowing drop-in for players to join existing games that have lost a player.

You can leave a game of DotA2. You get penalized for it.

The champions of leavers actually can be controlled in DotA2, but as you said generally are left at base anyways since it is nearly impossible to play more than one hero at all, let alone well.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.  Generally if my team doesn't pass the surrender vote, I will continue playing out of fairness, even if I think it's a lost cause.  Now, I'm not even sure what to do lol.  Unfortunately in this genre, the game can be over long before it ends ;p

Yeah, you can usually tell when things are over.

Of course, there is that freak time where it isn't.

I had a really awesome game of LoL over the weekend. The game started at quarter after 4 in the morning. By 35 minutes my team had only taken two enemy towers, and they had taken ALL of ours, including the two protecting the Nexus (aka in DotA: the Ancient).

The enemy team had full map control, while we were stuck in our base. That means they could farm all the creeps in the Jungle. That means they had both Red and both Blue buffs at all times. (Each side of the map in LoL has two Jungle camps with a large creep that provides a temporary buff to the player that kills it. Blue buff provides lots of mana regen and reduces ability cooldowns. Red buff applies an on-hit slow and true damage (bypasses resistances) 2 second DoT to autoattacks.). That means they had full control of both Dragon and Baron. (LoL has two equivalents to Roshan. Dragon can be taken by 2-3 team members starting around level 5-6 usually and provides about 10 creeps worth of gold to each team member (note: LoL has twice as many creeps as DotA2, but they are half as strong and worth half as much... ish.), while Baron requires 4-5 team members and can be contested starting around level 12-14 (25ish minutes into the game) and provides twice the team gold as Dragon, and gives the whole team a temporary buff that buffs most of their stats (about half an item's worth to each stat))

Even in such a dire situation, my team (who were all in VOIP together and know each other) decided we were not giving up.

40 minutes later, 5:30am, after an hour and 15 minutes of game time, we managed to actually win.

I collapsed as soon as the adrenaline wore off.

It was worth it.

[Wingflier]

Lol epic games like that are what make all the pain and agony of playing this genre worth it.

1 hour and 14 minutes!  Good lord, that's extremely long even for a DotA game.

You can leave a game of DotA2. You get penalized for it.

The champions of leavers actually can be controlled in DotA2, but as you said generally are left at base anyways since it is nearly impossible to play more than one hero at all, let alone well.

I think the bots still have a lot of work to go before they serve as a suitable replacement to average players.  At this point they're still significantly better than awful players, but I think if Valve continues improving them at this rate, they could be replacement for average players as well.  It would make sense for the game to call for a vote when the player left, and if everybody agreed the leaver would be replaced by a bot, else just an uncontrolled hero.

In terms of Valve's concede decision:

I can see arguments from both sides.  On the one hand concede takes a lot of the heartache and raging out of a lost game, but on the other hand, the winning team may feel robbed of their victory.  Personally, to me, a win is a win is a win, so I don't really care all that much about seeing the actual throne fall.  Another unfortunate byproduct of not having concede is that even won games (and certainly lost games) last much longer than they would otherwise, really shortening the amount of games you can play in a night.  The game may be over by 20 minutes, but the enemy team could keep holding us off for another 20-25, even though they basically have no chance and would have conceded if possible.  I just think this is exhausting to both sides, and said energy would be better spent on the next game instead.

Like I said, there are good arguments for both sides, I just think the benefits of adding a concede feature far outweigh the drawbacks.  I get a lot of sh*t for sitting AFK in the fountain every few games, but the alternative is to play a lost game, and I'd rather take the verbal harassment than that.