Author Topic: The Balance Forge: A Blog  (Read 4955 times)

Offline RCIX

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The Balance Forge: A Blog
« on: October 19, 2012, 06:02:39 pm »
balanceforge.wordpress.com

It's something I've wanted to make for a while and thought I'd show it to you guys. Feedback is welcome!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 06:25:59 pm by RCIX »
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2012, 06:54:08 pm »
There is no content. We have nothing to discuss.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 12:51:48 am »
What do you mean "no content"? There's a post there, and i'm working on the next one...
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2012, 12:57:04 am »
I think what Cyborg is getting at is like the introduction that precedes the prelude: It lacks any meat, but rather serves as an introduction. Without a story to follow the introduction, the introduction reallys serves no purpose, since it doesn't introduce anything.

It's different from a prelude in that the prelude ties in information directly into a story, while the introduction comments on the story.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2012, 12:09:39 pm »
I think what Cyborg is getting at is like the introduction that precedes the prelude: It lacks any meat, but rather serves as an introduction. Without a story to follow the introduction, the introduction reallys serves no purpose, since it doesn't introduce anything.

It's different from a prelude in that the prelude ties in information directly into a story, while the introduction comments on the story.

Yes. What you had so far seemed like trying to justify the blog in the first place. I would just scrap that because we all know what a balance discussion is. And I think it would be fun to have a balance discussion. So how about just getting to the good part, put some meat on the bones, and get on with it? Then we can have some fun in here.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2012, 12:44:19 am »
Well, as I said, I'm aiming this partially at the gamer who doesn't really understand the concept of balance in the first place (and just look at any competitive game's forum, there are a LOT that don't). So I wanted to make sure I didn't confuse people by launching into a discussion with terms like "gameplay element" and "ecosystem" before getting everyone on the same page.

But yes, more is coming.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 09:30:06 am »
You should check out the Torchlight forum.  Since it isn't a competitive game, people seem to think there is no need for balance at all.  Who cares if someone has a skill that one-shots every thing on the screen, destroy bosses, works best with only 5 skill points out of a possible 15, and is the skill you start the game with (Outlander Glaive Throw in this case).

Offline madcow

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 11:42:11 am »
One comment/complaint that hit me right away when I went to check this out was the background. Specifically those prism light/lasers that go behind the text, I don't mind background stuff along the side, but it's really distracting behind the text and makes it a little difficult to read.  I would suggest either making the background not scroll with the text (fixed background, scrolling text so I can move it around the background) or just change the background so the lights go up along the borders.

I'll check back when there's more content, let us know!

The idea of balance in cooperative games is an interesting one worth exploring. I would argue it doesn't need to be perfectly balanced so long as everything is viable - and one option isn't complete EZ mode. I've not played torchlight 2, so can't say if the ability you mentioned there is or not.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2012, 04:34:54 pm »
I enjoyed torchlight 2 beta. It's on my list for a holiday pick up.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2012, 06:36:50 pm »
You should check out the Torchlight forum.  Since it isn't a competitive game, people seem to think there is no need for balance at all.  Who cares if someone has a skill that one-shots every thing on the screen, destroy bosses, works best with only 5 skill points out of a possible 15, and is the skill you start the game with (Outlander Glaive Throw in this case).
It is important to remember that the point of a game is not necessarily to be balanced.  Generally the main point of the game is to be fun, though the more e-sports-oriented ones understandably tradeoff some fun for competitive balance.  And some non-obvious choices go into making a game as fun as it can be (restrictions that are frustrating sometimes, but without them it's a house without walls, etc).

That said, it's also important to remember that "competitive balance for e-sports purposes" is not the only reason to balance a game.

If in some RPG you have N abilities available to you, and one of them is so underpowered and so uninteresting that there is never a reason to use it, then your game is literally worse off for having it (interface clutter and confusion, at least), and you should either rebalance it or go to N-1 abilities.

In the extreme case of that, if you have N abilities available to you, and one of them is so overpowered that there is never a reason to use any other ability, then for each of those other abilities you should either rebalance them or remove them.  From a fun perspective, at least; from a business perspective you might just pad the ability count and hope people don't notice until after you have your sales.  I don't know of anyone who's done it to the extreme of only 1 worthwhile ability, but I've seen some suspiciously-like-padding stuff.

Same goes for units in an RTS.  In a game like AIW there's always units on the low end and high end of usefulness, but if we were just going to leave something on the very low end and not rebalance it then probably it would be better to just remove the unit.  That might happen to cleanup drones or whatever at some point, actually, depends on whether we can think of something worthwhile to do with them (the mine-clearing ability could be folded into something else).

Or in other words: if you're going to give the player a choice between N options, make sure there's a reason to pick each of those, or just pare the list down.

That gets a bit trickier when it comes to story-related choices, like I'm sure there are dialog choices in Planescape: Torment that you'd have to be an idiot to choose if your top priority were "win the game", but that's because there's the more meta-level player choice of whether they care about something else more than that.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2012, 06:48:05 pm »
The most perfectly balanced game is the most boring game, is a phrase I've heard before. Can't remember where I've heard it either.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2012, 07:09:53 pm »
The most perfectly balanced game is the most boring game, is a phrase I've heard before. Can't remember where I've heard it either.
I wouldn't go that far, in that it's very difficult to actually figure out what "most boring" would look like, but yea.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2012, 08:12:44 pm »
I'm still trying to figure out who doesn't know what a balance discussion is? Even small babies have a concept of fair. Granted it's different than older children, but human beings are always determining what's deserved and what isn't. Unless you are writing for eight-year-olds, I think we can dispense with the fluff and just get to the good part, which is discussing a game.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2012, 08:19:06 pm »
But is all game balance about fairness and what's deserved?

In a lot of games you're in a totally unfair position, but you have more than choice open to you.  Balance there is a matter of the choices being close enough to one another that you actually have a decision to make, rather than just picking the obviously-best one (or ignoring the obviously-bad ones).  So when you weigh two options in the scales, no one just hammers the scale into the ground because it's so much heavier than the other choice: they're balanced.

Anyway, discussing a game: MoO2.  Beam weapons vs Missiles vs Mass Drivers vs Fighters vs Plasma vs all-those-other-wacky-toys.  Whether you're facing a player force or the (unfair in that they don't play the same game) Antarans.  Go ;)
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: The Balance Forge: A Blog
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2012, 08:31:52 pm »
But is all game balance about fairness and what's deserved?

In a lot of games you're in a totally unfair position, but you have more than choice open to you.  Balance there is a matter of the choices being close enough to one another that you actually have a decision to make, rather than just picking the obviously-best one (or ignoring the obviously-bad ones).  So when you weigh two options in the scales, no one just hammers the scale into the ground because it's so much heavier than the other choice: they're balanced.

Anyway, discussing a game: MoO2.  Beam weapons vs Missiles vs Mass Drivers vs Fighters vs Plasma vs all-those-other-wacky-toys.  Whether you're facing a player force or the (unfair in that they don't play the same game) Antarans.  Go ;)

Good point, I was thinking balance as in, everything has a counter, there are always options open. I really wasn't that concerned with obsolescing different abilities, but that's a perfectly valid viewpoint.

And good, discussing a game. I'm going to say that the player force is the most dangerous given the most time, and I like beam weapons generally. What is your balance question, exactly?
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