Author Topic: The 2 new games from Arcen  (Read 6407 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: New stuff
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2013, 07:27:43 pm »
I don't think you need me to walk you through data mining or how to analyze audiences.
What I'm asking is whether analyzing that sort of data is what you meant by "focus groups".  If so we've already been doing that, but I'm guessing there's more to what you meant than that.

Quote
For example, you could look at how well independent titles do who have mod support. The lifespan of some of your titles has been shortened because your mod support sucks. No offense, just straight talking. Your mod support has been limited to graphics.
Straight talking is fine, but Tidalis and Shattered Haven both include extensive support for user-generated content (levels, full adventures, etc).  It's not full mod-support, of course, but it's more than just the graphics (even in AIW you can replace the music, but I don't think that's what you mean).  Seeing how mod support does (commercially) for other indies is interesting, but in our own experience it hasn't been a measurable factor despite the wide difference in moddability between our products.

There are certainly titles where mod support does incredible things commercially; the question for any given project proposal is how much extra budget (mainly in dev time) is needed to provide X level of mod support and what kind of marginal revenue (marginal as in "extra" not as in "small") that could be likely to produce.

Quote
Why on earth you haven't offered mod support for text strings is mystifying, considering you don't want to pay for language translation.
There may be some misunderstanding here: there's full support in every single one of our released games for doing your own translations if you really want to.  As was done here you can create a trans folder and put your replacement loca values in there.  I could give more detailed instructions but that's probably beside the point in this context.

Quote
The only reason AI war continues as strong as it has is because of the continued attention you pay to it with expansions and free content. If you stopped doing that, it would stagnate.
I agree.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: The 2 new games from Arcen
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2013, 11:49:02 am »
For focus groups, reddit.

For translations, reddit, forums. Offer arcen catalog reward. Provide trans instructions.

Levels are not mods. Inventing your own tidalis gm rules could be.



Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: The 2 new games from Arcen
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2013, 02:52:04 pm »
For focus groups, reddit.

For translations, reddit, forums. Offer arcen catalog reward. Provide trans instructions.

Levels are not mods. Inventing your own tidalis gm rules could be.

*shudders at the thought of using Reddit for a focus group*
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: The 2 new games from Arcen
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2013, 02:55:54 pm »
Just my personal opinion, but I think trying to make a 4x would be going into the wrong direction for Arcen.

Within the past year alone, I think there have been 10 indie companies, most probably in a better financial state than Arcen, and some more experienced, that have (in my opinion) failed miserably.

First of all, there's not a very wide market for the type of game.  Back in the early-mid 90s? Sure, when gamers had a lot more patience and imagination.

Now most gamers come from the COD age, and expect everything spoonfed to them, it's just a fact of life. Very few people have the patience (including me) to spend hours simply building their empire, growing their population, researching their technologies, posturing through diplomacy events, and then finally MAYBE getting into some kind of military conflict that could decide the game.  All this is a bit more feasible for a Turn-Based Game such as Civilization, but when you try to make it into an RTS, that's where it becomes over-complex and fails in my opinion.

I don't doubt Arcen's ability to make a good 4X, but it would be a lot of time and resources, and even if it were successful, there's no guarantee it would even sell well. It doesn't seem like any of the dozen ones that have come out recently have.

It's a very complex genre, and it demands a lot from the player. It demanded a lot from the player in the 90s, it demands even more now that there are so many better alternatives.

The complexity and depth of AI War is already a turn-off enough for most of its potential playerbase, and yet it still continues to be Arcen's best-selling game. Even *IT* pales in comparison to a true 4X in terms of complexity.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: The 2 new games from Arcen
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2013, 03:13:51 pm »
For focus groups, reddit.

For translations, reddit, forums. Offer arcen catalog reward. Provide trans instructions.

Levels are not mods. Inventing your own tidalis gm rules could be.

*shudders at the thought of using Reddit for a focus group*
If we're talking about /r/gaming/, that would be more personal but not really any better than using /v/ as a focus group, I'd say.

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: The 2 new games from Arcen
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2013, 04:19:39 pm »
Well yes, the Internet is a big trash heap of misanthropic failed abortions, but when you're trying to target large communities-international communities even- you need to make an effort somewhere.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline doctorfrog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
Re: The 2 new games from Arcen
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2013, 11:23:50 pm »
For my two cents:

* Indeed it would be a mistake to introduce a MOO/Civ style 4X at this time, six months ago would have been a better time. In my mind, the bulk of the audience interested in a 4X have had their fill with the one major indie effort that has come out (forgot the name and TBH it didn't look all that great), and those that aren't will soon be with StarDrive. Fortunately, Arcen doesn't seem to be proposing anything of the sort.

* Arcen should not stop creating games that Arcen likes to make and genuinely likes to play.

* Arcen should definitely look beyond its own forums for input on what games will sell.

Now, where option three can actually be found, I'm not sure, but it shouldn't end with Reddit. I don't think this is something you can go out and find, "hey folks, what do you want from us?" You kind of have to play the game that you feel you want to play, but also the kind of game that you know just isn't out there.

Then you have to get lucky, hitting just the right sweet spot in the greater indie game consumer market, and/or catching the ear of the major talking heads of the indie circuit. That's a hard target to reach, and again, it's almost completely up to luck and just an amazing amount of standout talent. IMO, the golden god of good luck meeting genuinely good design, meeting an amazing design aesthetic is the one man show of Blendo games. Chung's best stuff is on Humble Bundle right now, and his strong catalog stands to earn him enough money to finish his awesome vision for Quadrilateral Cowboy... and then some. And honestly, his stuff is so good, so weird, so inspired, he deserves every penny.

A good example of Arcen just BARELY missing the mark would be Shattered Haven. I've seen lots of opinions about it, and many of them are like this: "This looks like the strategy roguelike zombie scavenger open world game I have been craving for! But it's a puzzle game and it's ok. Well, the search goes on."

I felt that way myself. There's a half-busted, survival, ASCII flavored roguelike called Cataclysm, and visually, SH looked like everything Cataclysm wanted to be, but wasn't. 

Shattered Haven is a good game, but it's not enough to make a good game. You almost have to come up with a masterpiece that no one has ever seen before, or fulfil a need that just the right group has been slavering for.

One thing that I think shows the Arcen  operation is moving the right direction is: smaller, cheaper games, shorter turnaround. They definitely have heart, they have the will and energy to put out a solid game, and the experience and talent to boot. But it seems like what Arcen may be lacking (we're in opinion territory here) is some genuine inspiration and the knack for spotting a real demand in the indie megagenre.

yep, not a word of this is really helpful.

except for this:

Arcen should make games that Arcen loves to make and really wants to play. And also make sure they know what audience with money will want that sort of game.

Offline mrhanman

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
Re: The 2 new games from Arcen
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2013, 11:30:00 pm »
All this market research mumbo-jumbo is just a lot of snake oil.  All you really need to decide your next project is one of these babies!



Your welcome!

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: The 2 new games from Arcen
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2013, 12:51:06 am »
For SH, I find myself still thinking "what is it?"

No really, what IS it. This actually is an important question. Hearing "genre hybrid" in my book is not a good think. It means mediocrity in many things.

Something is not right if my knowledge general I still don't know despite me being such a arcen fan. With the lack of advertising I thought the game would be realized months later from when it actually was released.

In general it just popped saying "I'm here" and I'm like "What? What ARE you? I wonder what you ar-oh wait, I have 20 games I already know about to play"
Life is short. Have fun.