StarDrive: Invasion of the Space Bears.

[Wingflier]

Looks absolutely fantastic.  I've always wanted a galaxy conquer game which also had an invasion element.

Obviously it could be a flop, but I'm extremely excited anyway.

[zespri]

I spent about 15 minutes watching the tutorials and it looks very very similar to galactic civilizations with difference being that this one looks more 3D. Anyone played the game for awhile? So many games so little time!!!

[eRe4s3r]

Does it have any element that gives an actual reason for building an empire? Or is it another (ultimately pointless) sandbox? Also.. reviews? Opinions?

[Wingflier]

Just played it for the first time today.  The interface and controls need some work (to be expected in a beta).  There seems to be a lot of tedium, and the tutorial seems very inadequate for the scale and complexity of the game.  I hate the galaxy/space controls it seems really clunky zooming in and out, and there's no way to increase the zooming/scrolling speed.  In fact there are no game options AT ALL aside from adjusting the resolution o_O.  That could use some serious love.  The game options on the new campaign screen are basic at best, and so far there's no multiplayer option.

Despite all these flaws, it seems like it has a lot of potential.  The research and ship building screens seem extremely complex, but I'm sure once you figure them out there's a ton of customization and interesting things you could do.

Seems like it has a crapload of potential, but also needs a crapload of work.  Don't think they should release it in a month like they plan.

[eRe4s3r]

Isn't that how all our 4x game reviews start? "Has lots of potential.. if only they did that and that"

Ehm, so a skip it is (Meaning I will watch a let's play once it's out..)

[keith.lamothe]

Sounds not dead-on-arrival like some recent 4X offerings I could mention, but not really rising above the "not really ready" line that so few get past.  But there's still some hope

[Wingflier]

Sounds not dead-on-arrival like some recent 4X offerings I could mention, but not really rising above the "not really ready" line that so few get past.  But there's still some hope

Speaking of that, why don't you mention them, it would be useful for me to know all the 4X Failures we've had in the last year.  There are literally so many of them I haven't even been able to keep track, and my memory is a bit rubbish.

I'll probably make a post on the Space Drive forums at some point, and I think it would strengthen my argument to mention all the "5X" games, as you poetically put it, that have been a commercial failure because of rushed design and release.  The only ones I can remember at the moment are Sword of the Stars 2 and Star Ruler, but I know there are plenty more.

[keith.lamothe]

I had a fair bit of fun with Star Ruler, though that was a while after its release and I used a mod (Galactic Armory); never tried it at release (iirc they got it out for financial reasons, not because it was done), never tried it vanilla.

The other one that comes to mind was "(something) Pegasus"

There've been others that crossed my radar but I don't remember them offhand.

Anyway, the genre is almost a graveyard of these kinds of failure.  I enjoyed Endless Space, and it's probably the best overall effort in the genre I've seen recently (i.e., this side of GalCiv2 and the original SotS, chronologically) ... but honestly it was a relatively mediocre game.

It makes me wonder if the genre's fundamental ideas are flawed, rather than it just being a problem with the execution.  And when I see people talk about what they want to see in a new 4X game I see a lot of "yea, that'd be cool" and a lot of "wow, do you have any idea how difficult/intractable that would be to design/develop, let alone make into a game that isn't torture to interact with?" ... I'd love to make a 4X space game some day, but the genre looks like a serious minefield.

Then I remember MoO and MoO2 and think that just giving those a UI overhaul (mainly adding power tools to cut through micro faster) and a resolution patch would be great   But they're not exactly available for extension, sadly.

[eRe4s3r]

If you make a 4x game just ask your forum goes to write your design document for each idea implementation Then all it needs are quick and dirty proof of concept prototypes to see whether that idea works or not, and how it could interact with the other ideas. And the 3 primary pillars, scaling challenges, scaling abstraction, and dynamic semi-random narrative (per race) and the game would sell itself. Because that's where all space 4x games FAILED so far.  Oh and a fun implementation for combat that supports abstraction from the smallest vessel to a 40k ship fleet. Idea's are here and as you say, the only reason I ever saw leveled against these ideas is "do you know how hard to code that is?" And I say, if something is hard to code, then it is worth to code. Because if all the others didn't bother yet doesn't mean it is not worth to bother with... ;P

The 4x genre only stagnates because after Alpha Centauri developers all went brain-dead. And apart from MOO3 nobody else even bothered with fundamentally new ideas.... yes, moo3 had some flawed implementations, but nothing a bit of post launch support couldn't have solved.

Also before starting even the coding, have us actually talk about the ideas and proof of concepts in a forum Even we who have great ideas (from 20 years of playing 4x games!) can be wrong, and only other people and their ideas can really bring things moving.

In my opinion, the reason 4x games all suck is because developers get to have tunnel vision in a way that is very damaging to the game. They look at past 4x games and think "what to do better" when some of us here see the 4x games and think "What to completely change from the ground up" and "what other genres and non-space 4x games are there, and how did they solve the primary problems" ....

I just think a 4x game can only ever be good if it's designed by a HARDCORE gamer committee.... let's try it out and see ;p

[Wingflier]

Personally I think 4x games just try to tackle wayyyyy to much ground at once, and leave a game that's pretty mediocre at everything.

Look at AI War, it's a very scaled-down version of a traditional 4X.  No ship design, no diplomacy (BECAUSE F YOU AI), no complicated trade routes or resource management, no worrying about population sizes or planet types, or how happy your people are on miserable Desert World, etc.  Yet even being such a scaled-down version of a 4X game, which includes no competitive multiplayer (something that most 4X games attempt to include), it has still taken years of patches to work into reasonable shape.

I think a good 4X game has to be tackled by a company with a lot of resources.  It's not a feasible Indie goal, yet Indie companies are the only ones attempting to do them. 

After being somewhat disappointed with Stardrive, I just jumped into the latest Alpha of Starfarer (renamed Starsector), and I'm so impressed I feel like I could scream.  I've always been impressed with this game, ever since I bought it like 1.5 years ago, but whenever I come back to check on it, it just keeps getting better and better.  The combat is so simplistic and visceral, but also intuitive and dynamic at the same time.  But that's because they aren't massively concerned with the traditional 4X concept.  They want a good space combat game first, which they've pretty much accomplished, now they're moving to the single-player only campaign mode, which once again is not a 4X.  And that seems to be moving along nicely as well.

So I feel like if they had tried to tackle a traditional 4X, the game would be a disaster.  So instead they just made it a pseudo-4X, scaling down the elements and keeping the fun stuff, and I think the results speak for themselves.  It's much better than any 4X I've played in a long time, and it's still in Alpha.

[eRe4s3r]

But... it's not a 4x ;P I am not saying we should adhere to strict genre conventions.. but the basis of a 4x game is what it is. I bought Star Sector for entirely different reasons, mostly because of the SP campaign and combat. Never because of empire building or story (Although I suppose it will have one now)

Good 4x doesn't need infinite high production values. It just needs really good ideas how to build a combat and empire system that is 100% scalable and supports abstraction (Although some people might disagree, abstraction is the only way to make an 100% scalable 4x game)

AI War is also more a 2D Puzzle game with rts elements. I consider it even more akin a unique tower defense game than an actual RTS.... so yeah

[Wingflier]

Well that's exactly what I'm saying:  Starsector and AI War literally only have a fraction of what makes a traditional 4X, and they are still HUGE GAMES, with enough complexity to steer away the vast majority of gamers.

Perhaps we've all been spoiled by the new generation of console games, but the fact of the matter is, I don't think most people even have the patience anymore for the pseudo-4X games (if you can even call them that), much less the full thing.  The best 4X I've probably ever played (not having tried MOO or GC) is Sins Rebellion, and even it can't hold my attention for very long simply because it's so complex and slow-paced.

I think there are many elements of the 4X that are wonderful, but I think trying to put them all into the same game is a recipe for disaster in today's modern gaming world.

[eRe4s3r]

Sins is not 4x.... (it's a very boring RTS *cough*) but I agree, if anyone tries a 4x game he or she also needs to modernize it. I have also little patience for click heavy excel table gameplay that requires infinite micromanagement and obscured information with the sole purpose to hide it's own broken gameplay systems *cough* GALCIV 2 (at least to some extend) or even better, SOTS 2

I mean that's what I am saying all the time isn't it. I want a immersive 4x game that is abstracting properly so that it never bogs down. That means obviously that the "map view" can only be at best a third of it (and why I consider SINS boring as hell, since 99% of the game you spend staring at planets or the overview of planets..)

Apart from that I disagree that anyone should bother about the modern gaming world or what the majority wants, the majority is NOT going to buy an Indy game, ever. Kickstarter proves there is a market for games of old days done *slightly* modern. Project Eternity / Torment 2 / Wasteland 2 .......

The only problem is that no 4x game so far did something where I could see some revolutionary idea that moves the genre foward (I only see developers trying to retread DEAD ground).. but maybe you are talking about your definition of 4x vs mine of it... I have a different expectation of 4x games. I want basically Rome 2 in SPACE with absolute scalability and very high moddability. Anyone who makes that has my funding support.

Clearly Total War games are highly successful even in today's gaming market, and these games are anything but shallow, and I am sure a well done SPACE total war game would be pretty epic

And I hear with Rome 2 they are going with the "dynamic narrative" route...

[keith.lamothe]

If you make a 4x game just ask your forum goes to write your design document for each idea implementation

I was specifically thinking of your previous suggestions, but I couldn't remember how to spell your username and it was too late for me to be unlazy enough to go look it up

Your manifesto on what a 4X would have to have in order to satisfy you was one of the bits of evidence I put in the "this problem is intractable" category.  Not because the ideas weren't cool, but because I don't think anybody could ever succeed in delivering that game in a form that you would _want_ to play.  Nevermind the difficulty/time involved in coding: the interface would necessarily be so convoluted, and the model require so many inputs from you (for remotely-optimal play, "governor" AI to do stuff for you in a model that complex would either suck or take more effort than the whole rest of the project), that playing it would be torture.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but if you ever want me to seriously aim at a target, I've got to be able to actually see it on active sensors

[Mánagarmr]

Yeah, there are few games that put me to sleep faster than Sins. Geez.

Anyhow, it looks rushed yet, but I'm still hoping. I haven't bought it because...I've been burned WAY too many times by 4X promises...so we'll see. I do hope they take the time to make it good.