StarDrive: Invasion of the Space Bears.

[eRe4s3r]

If you make a 4x game just ask your forum goes to write your design document for each idea implementation

I was specifically thinking of your previous suggestions, but I couldn't remember how to spell your username and it was too late for me to be unlazy enough to go look it up

Your manifesto on what a 4X would have to have in order to satisfy you was one of the bits of evidence I put in the "this problem is intractable" category.  Not because the ideas weren't cool, but because I don't think anybody could ever succeed in delivering that game in a form that you would _want_ to play.  Nevermind the difficulty/time involved in coding: the interface would necessarily be so convoluted, and the model require so many inputs from you (for remotely-optimal play, "governor" AI to do stuff for you in a model that complex would either suck or take more effort than the whole rest of the project), that playing it would be torture.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but if you ever want me to seriously aim at a target, I've got to be able to actually see it on active sensors

Yeah that's the problem with all complex suggestions from players though. The more complex the matter the less the idea can be understood by others. In the end, the idea is far more fleshed out in my head than in my words and most of it is images, not words...

Actually, I might be able to mock-up the interface and flow in graphics like a story sketch book for movies..  but coding it  ? Impossible! But before I do that I guess I will have to write that design document for my own mockup first hah ;p

[keith.lamothe]

Yeah that's the problem with all complex suggestions from players though. The more complex the matter the less the idea can be understood by others. In the end, the idea is far more fleshed out in my head than in my words and most of it is images, not words...

Actually, I might be able to mock-up the interface and flow in graphics like a story sketch book for movies..  but coding it  ? Impossible! But before I do that I guess I will have to write that design document for my own mockup first hah ;p

If I had about a year of free time and the ability to risk that much financially I'd love to give it a try, but I'm nowhere near that situation

[chemical_art]

As others have said, the key with 4X is that it needs to scale well and run relatively quickly regardless of empire size, while still making different playstyles.

Being simple is fine if it is deep. MOO doesn't have different types of armors, or weapons to counter them aside from shields. Yet with something as simple as shields, you get three distinct types of short range weapons. Long ranged weapons are similar; early on, you decide on smaller weapons with less ammunition or a larger one with more ammunition, with later on getting the option of infinite ammo with less damage.

It's not complex, but it scales really well. MOO did throw a unique wrench in the system in that weapons actually get cheaper, both absolutely and in relative production, over time. The very act of researching new things makes the old things cheaper, which lessens their obsolesce. But even this is not complex in code, just in weighing options.


The key is to have "core" things work, and if and only if the core works should other things be added. Niche combat mechanics are nice, but not at the expense at the whole picture.

[KDR_11k]

I love designing things to fly around but a big problem is feedback. When I control a ship directly I can easily see which parts aren't working out. StarDrive is decent at feedback but still a bit vague compared to, say, Star Sector, Banjo-Kazooie N&B or Stratosphere CotS. Star Ruler, now that's a complete mess, I have no idea how my designs are performing because tracking the action is nigh on impossible.

Also in the end I've noticed that I'm not a big fan of macro, feedback tends to be weak there as well too: With everything happening on planets you see a bunch of blips that may be effectively resource bases, factories, research bases or any chaotic mixture thereof. Once stuff scales up and you've got hundreds of planets there's practically no overview anymore. The space/ground difference also hurts the overview when most of the macro happens in one view while the strategy happens in another. In AI War you see the economic structures and stuff on the main playfield. Plus then there's the space/ground combat difference where you've got two games and one is often vestigial.

Imperium Galactica 2 had a nicely fleshed out ground component (both combat and construction) but you could only deal with playing so many matches of Sim City simultaneously before just setting it to automatic and hoping that the game knows how to play itself.

In the end, what's the point of a game mechanism that the player cannot handle and that basically has to be played by the game itself? You can bet your ass that the game won't play itself optimally and someone will still find a tedious way to micro everything for maximum efficiency but does that add to the fun?

I like Drox Operative, no worrying about the whole empire building, just doing the action part and winning however you please.

EDIT: Fiorgot to mention: In StarDrive Type V fighters (seem roughly equivalent to small capital ships) can fit 3 fighter bays that can produce any fighter, including other Type Vs. Fighterception?

[Wingflier]

...We must go deeper.

[Histidine]

Borrowed a friend's copy, spent most of last night playing it.

 
It definitely has its charm (SPACE BEARS) and while combat feels very GSB-eqsue (design ships then let them slug it out), it's still fun.
Ship design is pretty cool, though it takes forever to assemble the bigger ships.
The econ mechanics aren't too bad. I think the trade mechanic - you can build freighters and have them ship production, food and people around as needed (unlike MoO2, they actually exist in the game space) - is quite clever myself.

 
On the flip side, the UI is concentrated arglebargle. Worst offender for me is that it doesn't notify you if a planet's production queue (or your research queue) is empty; it's easy to get a lot of wasted downtime. Runner up: WHICH SELF-RESPECTING RTS DOESN'T LET YOU QUEUE ORDERS AARRRRGH.
Some elementary things aren't explained, like how to create troop shuttles or the use of subspace platforms to create "roads."
Economic management breaks down late game with a dozen and a half planets to manage. I could use the governors, but I've never trusted them in a 4x game, and I've not heard good things about the ones here.

 
Tech tree seems a bit cropped (though it's far better than being massively bloated like Endless Space or FreeOrion). In my current game, I've run out of topics to research about 300 "years" in.
Diplomatic interactions felt a bit off. Inevitably, the militant races would smell blood and come after me early in the game, although I could hold them off. In my current game (the only one I've made any real progress in) it eventually boiled down to an alliance of civilized races (humans, space bears and talking plants) against the marauding hordes of cthulhu monsters, woolves, mind-controlling molluscs and robo-bugs. I think the only thing that saved us was the fact that the aggressive races were just as likely to fight each other as fighting the pacifists. Eventually the wolves and cthulhu aliens succumbed to the infighting, and now I'm trying to subdue the bugs.

I'm winning most of my battles, but they seem to have an endless supply of ships, and in terms of territory it seems to be two steps forward, one step back. I'm almost within striking range of their homeworld now, though, and when I do I'm going to go Fallen Spire on their ovipositors.

[Histidine]

And now I can't make any progress because I keep crashing with Out of Memory errors. BAH!

[Echo35]

Bumping this up, since its much closer to release now and I'm debating just jumping in head first and trying it out. Anyone play it recently?

[Wingflier]

Haven't tried it since I bought it about a month and a half ago.  Was terribly disappointed at the time.  Can't imagine they could have changed that much about a game this huge in that amount of time.

I would estimate it would need another year of polish before it was up to quality standards, and that's if they stick with it that long.

[Histidine]

Thought it was okay, myself, though still unrefined. Give it maybe 3-4 months.

[Mánagarmr]

TotalBiscuit helps you yet again.

[Echo35]

TotalBiscuit helps you yet again.

Yeah, I watched that, and went and got it for the heck of it. I'm actually rather enjoying it. Significantly better than Endless Space still is after many content updates.

[keith.lamothe]

Good to know there's something of value in there

[Echo35]

Good to know there's something of value in there

Not terribly far into it, but so far so good anyway. Also Space Bears, come on. Just as good as Space Lions and Space Wolves in TI3.

[zespri]

Apparently it has been released now. Is it release quality or are there still some bugs to be ironed out?