Author Topic: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*  (Read 13172 times)

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2015, 05:28:52 pm »
I know gameplay trumps graphics, but SOME improvement is to be expected, isn't it?

Does it improve in Arcen titles?
It does. The difference between AI War and Last Federation is big despite both being set in space. I find the graphics in TLF a lot better. But other people migth have a different opinion.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2015, 03:46:40 am »
I find the graphics in TLF a great deal worse.
Might well be a matter of taste.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2015, 04:02:06 am »
I know gameplay trumps graphics, but SOME improvement is to be expected, isn't it?

Does it improve in Arcen titles?
However small improvement, yes it definitely does. There have been missteps along the way (Valley 1 I'm looking at you) but the overall direction is absolutely forward, taste notwithstanding.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2015, 11:14:23 am »
Does it improve in Arcen titles?
It does. The difference between AI War and Last Federation is big despite both being set in space. I find the graphics in TLF a lot better. But other people migth have a different opinion.

The difference between AI War v2 and AI War v4 is also really noticeable.  When AI War was new, they were using tons and tons of free assets, and while some of those are still around, somewhere around 3.0 they had the money to hire an artist to create new graphics for almost everything and it shows.

Offline Bluddy

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2015, 08:21:00 pm »
I hate badmouthing Soldak, because it's really a mom and pop's kind of developer, and I've really enjoyed their games so far tremendously.

Nevertheless, the main problem I have with Zombasite is that there's no hook. Soldak ARPGs were always weak on the ARPG mechanics, but you put up with them because they had an ingenious concept no-one else had. Depths of Peril had a unique random quest generator, and competing with other, brutal clans + the little short stories really made it a wonderful experience. Din's Curse had an even better random quest generator that tried to overwhelm you, and the hook was brilliant: fight the dungeon or the town gets destroyed; lose your quest-givers and the town is doomed. Drox was a decent implementation of an ARPG in a space 4x. The setting was original for an ARPG, and the race relations, together with the quest system, were pretty good too. However, the random quest chains weren't as compelling since they were just ways to kiss up to factions, and with many ways to win, there just isn't as much tension and focus as with the other games. But I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that TLF was very heavily inspired by Drox, using Drox's very unique concept as a template (and probably making a lot more money in the process).

With Zombasite, I don't get what the hook is. Sure, it contains both elements of DoP and DC, but it also has the multiple victory conditions from Drox, which I think is terrible for an ARPG, since it robs the design of its focus. It's more a union of the various designs from the past than a particular idea: let's take DoP, and add DC, and then add the goals and factions from Drox, and add zombies to the mix. Without a hook, the game rests on the graphics and ARPG mechanics, and those are never going to win any awards. And let's not forget that zombies are a negative, since applying a zombie setting to a fictional world (especially one where zombies already existed and weren't that dangerous to begin with) looks like you're trying too hard to ride a trend.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2015, 11:25:02 pm »
What excuse is there for these graphics in the age of a cheap Unity 5 license + asset store? That's right. None. If a dev wants my money, he has to make something I haven't already played/seen. So this looks like Dins Curse and a bid like Drox, which I did already play. Hence, pass.

And as you guys know, I am a stickler for FX mostly and those effects in that trailer make me cringe. I already said it with Drox, but that engine has some of the worst particle systems I've seen and I've seen AI War 1.0 ;p. There is no weight to any of the effects. And this is quite bad for an ARPG.. combat needs to be visceral, there needs to be weight to the explosions and hits. I already had this problem with Depth of Peril later with Drox and Din, these games all feel the same.. rough and unpolished and nothing you do in them feels like it's really "connecting" properly.

But Soldak is Soldak.

And let's remind ourselves that AI War has about 28 times more sales than Drox ;) So there was more money available for better graphics (though I don't buy "money" as a valid excuse for ugly FX)
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2015, 01:05:53 am »
I have to concur with eRe4s3r on his points as well. We live in an age where we have Unity, Source, Unreal, Frostbite, etc and so forth readily available now. I get that developers may have legitimate gripes with those engines but those are the standards we can compare games to and there are a lot of competitors on the market. And really, I hate to say this but what might be holding back Soldak's sales is the presentation at this point. We have a lot of top-down aRPGs that look really good and feel really good to play. Combat is often visceral, bloody and smooth and has a good amount of depth both visually and mechanically. Then Soldak releases a trailer with choppy framerates and animations that look cheap. I played Din's Curse and while the world mechanics are certainly unique and interesting, the minute-to-minute actions lacked the punch of Path of Exile, Diablo 3 or Torchlight 2's combat. A lot of people play these games for that visceral thrill and becoming steadily more powerful and Zombasite only partially provides that. The rest has to be imagined and that's not what people are willing to pay for.

Even if we are suddenly releasing text-based RPGs here recently...which is utterly strange to me.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2015, 01:09:21 am »
With Zombasite, I don't get what the hook is. Sure, it contains both elements of DoP and DC, but it also has the multiple victory conditions from Drox, which I think is terrible for an ARPG, since it robs the design of its focus. It's more a union of the various designs from the past than a particular idea: let's take DoP, and add DC, and then add the goals and factions from Drox, and add zombies to the mix. Without a hook, the game rests on the graphics and ARPG mechanics, and those are never going to win any awards. And let's not forget that zombies are a negative, since applying a zombie setting to a fictional world (especially one where zombies already existed and weren't that dangerous to begin with) looks like you're trying too hard to ride a trend.

The hook unfortunately seems to be its a Soldak game with zombies. That seems to be what the marketing emails indicate to me. I agree though, this game lacks the hook of its predecessor. I could instantly tell people why they should play Din's Curse and Drox Operative. Zombasite...not so much. And maybe that's why I'm so disappointed that it really hasn't evolved much since.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2015, 04:05:39 am »
As I've said earlier in the thread: When Zombasite was announced I cringed because the zombie fad was already dead and gone by then. :(


It's really unfortunately. I did like Din's Curse a lot, and Drox was very interesting for 10-15 hours or so, which I find fair. But I just can't justify buying the same game over again with the same dated graphics. And as Eraser said: The effects have literally 0 weight to them, so combat is really unsatisfying.


Look at Torchlight 2. That's visceral effects.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2015, 03:12:38 pm »
Torchlight 2 and Diablo 3 are good examples for visceral combat effects. But the top in effects is to me Final Fantasy 13-2 ,)

Admittedly.. these look way more awesome in motion, which is why I have nearly no screenshots of em...



Now I don't expect a normal 3rd person ARPG to have this level of effects... but there are simple ways to make hits feel like they connect (enemies flash, on-hit effect, on-hit animation and of course, physical debris from big hits, smoke from explosions, sparks when metal is hit by lightning etc. ) Every elemental attack really needs own effect/hit style/death effect and "linger" (see D3 which has nailed this perfectly lately, with legendary weapons really looking nifty to boot)

To me the combat "feeling" is the absolute paramount thing in an ARPG, and FX play a big part in the connection of models, animations with player actions and reactions. And this is a thing where artists need to work together, where a concept artist needs to define how things look in motion FX wise etc. It's also a matter of animation blending and IK, so it isn't easy or cheap. But a good looking and feeling ARPG sells better (i'd claim) as a bad looking/feeling one.

Btw 1.: because it is relevant right now. Divinity Original Sin Enhanced Edition also looks VERY neat in the FX department.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 03:20:48 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2015, 08:31:08 pm »
There is a LOT to say about about FF 13 (1 and 2 which I have played).

I will say this. 13-1 broke my ps3 twice. The first time I could revive it from the dead. The second blow was a mortal one.

The graphics are pretty. Good art design. I wish other aspects excelled at a similar level.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2015, 09:07:26 pm »
Indeed, but all I meant to point out is that good effects are something one can find if one looks. So there is no excuse not to at least TRY to have good effects.

(I absolutely AND TOTALLY hate this 8bit graphics fad, I want additive blended DOOM)

So for example, you hit a dude with a charged sword skill that does 50fire damage and AOE

OnHIT
#Stagger Animation of enemy for a hundred milliseconds or so
#Flash the entire mesh for a hundred milliseconds or less
#Spark effect based on enemy type (bones/blood/metal etc.)
#Additional debris that flies away (sparks,puffs of smoke whatever the elemental effect requires)
#Small 2 stage explosion depending on elemental effect strength (explosion and smoke, decently faded out so it doesn't obscure vision too much)
#Ground-Shockwave (indicating AOE range)
#Backblast
#Air Shockwave (if explosion) D3 has this nailed (indicating AOE range)
#Sound that takes all the effect stages into account

DOT effect?
#Apply elemental based shader (cold/fire/lightning/holy/poison)
#elemental based particle cloud around that character (mild effect strength only)
#ground-effect
#ambient sound that indicates DOT, make sure it doesn't overload the sound channels)

Is that overkill? To me this is the fundamentals. I absolutely hate when games do
this

OnHIT
#Play particle effect 1
#Play sound effect 1

DOT effect?
#Tint enemy color

....

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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2015, 10:53:42 pm »
There is a LOT to say about about FF 13 (1 and 2 which I have played).

I will say this. 13-1 broke my ps3 twice. The first time I could revive it from the dead. The second blow was a mortal one.

The graphics are pretty. Good art design. I wish other aspects excelled at a similar level.
FFXIII really has beautiful graphics. When I first played it on PC I was overwhelmed. One of my favorites moments where the crystalised sea at the beginning of the game.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2015, 11:11:56 pm »
I'd say it sounds like the fundamentals of putting effort into their details, ereser.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Soldak Entertainment: Zombasite on Early Access *wince*
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2015, 03:55:35 am »
I really hate the Final Fantasy games though because there's such a disconnect between effects and damage dealt. It's a bit silly when someone throws a planet at someone or fires a gigalaser from space and hits for 200 when the enemy has 20 000 hitpoints.


It's pretty, absolutely, but it becomes rapidly ludicrous when the power of the ability isn't tuned to the awesomeness of its effect. ^^
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