Author Topic: So, self-entitlement in the industry....  (Read 1512 times)

Offline Misery

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2017, 10:05:15 PM »
I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree. Not everyone expects free updates. If a game is released and it's reasonably bug free and feature complete on release, I don't give a flying fart if the game gets "free content" or not. Sure, I appreciate if it does, but I'm sure as heck not going to spite the dev if it isn't. That's ridiculously petty.

Sidenote: I'm 35 and grew up with Paratrooper and Pango.

Not everyone, no, but the vast majority sure seem to, to the point where it's affecting the market very heavily.  I cant count the number of times I"ve seen people whine about a very small price being waaaaayyyyyyy too much, or thinking that something should be free simply because they dont want to pay.   I CAN count the number of times I"ve seen people say differently, because that's only happened on this forum.  ....No, seriously, I cant remember the last time I ran into someone that didn't think this way, outside of here.


Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Some of us middle-aged folks grew up with games you buy in a ridiculously oversized box that included manuals, notepads, maps, and the joy of Christmas morning. Not really worried about DLC.

I remember saving up enough money to go to the game store. Before even having a drivers license, just earning enough money here and there from odd jobs and holiday gifts. Sometimes, it would take months to just purchase one game. And that moment of having enough, traveling to the mall by sidewalk to purchase that glorious boxed game, it was triumphant.

Steam doesn't capture that glory, not even a little bit.

Aye, same here really.  Sort of.

Though, to be honest, I dont miss it much.  It was usually just a pain to deal with.  The stores around my area tended to suck, bigtime (they still do, really).  Finding whatever I was after was usually a giant hassle (and sometimes not viable at all).  Usually just led to frustration. 

Steam, I just click on whatever, it's there, and no stupid CDs to lose.

That being said, I still do miss actual boxed releases, cartridges, manuals... all those things.   Or piles of disks (with a "K" there) and an even bigger manual, for a computer game.   The search and purchasing process were bloody awful but it was still nice to open those up like that.   Also, for computers, DOS, no freaking Windows.  And old VGA or even CGA graphics on a giant block of a monitor. 


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Unfortunately I'm also going to have to be in the disagree camp as well.

The wealthiest Triple A companies such as EA, Betheseda, Activision, etc. would probably shit a golden brick before they gave out free DLC to their customers. In fact, most of these games do not have expansions, they have tired sequels made every year pandering to their idiotic audiences who don't realize they're getting conned by a game that is barely different from the last version.

The wealthy companies that do provide "free DLC" usually do so with free-to-play games like MOBAs and card games, or even with games like Counter-Strike with all the "free" content they add with cosmetic updates that you could technically unlock for free, but usually you end up having to pay for. So this "free" content is not really free at all, even if it's advertised that way. Sure, in MOBAs and card games you can usually play to unlock all of it, but very few people have that kind of time or motivation. So in many cases "free" is just a scam to get people to pay microtransactions.

The only developers that provide free DLC to their playerbase are some indie companies, and they do that I think because they are passionate about the game and because they love it. They love their games just as much (or more) than the players, and they want to keep developing it, even if it's not directly making them any money. Yes, this has become very common in the indie scene. However, there are some benefits to doing this as huge patches revitalize interest in the game, and sometimes get people excited enough to buy a copy or buy the next expansion (which these big patches often come out around).

So yes, there are some cases where players expect indie developers to patch the game for free, but in the end, if the indie company already got their money, it doesn't matter anymore what the players expect. It is still the case that when indie companies release fairly priced DLC content or expansions, players will buy it.

When they release giant trash heaps of unfinished, buggy, and/or balanced content and "features" that nobody asked for, as with Afterbirth+, well then you're going to create a lot of angry fans.

ESPECIALLY when a superior community-made DLC came out in the same week that's vastly better in almost every way (according to the consensus of the players) and is absolutely FREE. And that this content was significantly harder to create because it had to come into creation through the hacking of the game's infrastructure instead of through the tools that the actual developers used to create the game.

That's just fails all around.

I'm not counting the big guys in thsi one in the same way as the indie devs.

Why?  Because if you give a gamer hyper-shiny graphics and enough cutscenes to kill a horse, they *will* pay $60 for it, even if it's A: awful and B: 3 hours long.   THAT is the actual, and only, reason why the big guys dont need to do free DLC.  There's just no logical reason to.   

However... the sad thing is, even this isnt entirely true.  Players are complaining more and more these days.  Not just about bad DLC, but about the value they are getting.  To some degree this is valid, or at least in my hateful opinion, being that as far as I'm concerned most AAA games are garbage.  But there's also still that high greed factor, that "Of COURSE it should be given to me" bit.  It tends to be there alot more with indies, since "Oh those games cost nothing to make", but it's still there to some degree even with the big guys.


As far as Afterbirth:  Still disagreeing.   Besides, it's very subjective.  I've' now met up with plenty of others that, like myself, werent one bit impressed with Antibirth (which in my case has already been deleted, seriously, I freaking hated it, and it required REMOVING normal Afterbirth's content, which was a big fat NOPE for me) and are indeed after proper mods.  That and those that simply do like the new content.  Far as I'm concerned, there was one, and ONLY one, bad part of the new content, whch is The Void area.  THat's it.  Everything else?  Quite pleased with it.   And honestly, I VERY strongly suspect that a huge part of the actual reason for the preference with Antibirth, for many players, is that it's basically shinier.  Alot of things which provide new visuals and shiny bits.  Like I've said a million times over the years, give players enough graphical wow, and they'll go bonkers for it.  It's depressing to watch, regardless of what game it's related to.  Even worse to watch people do it in person, ugh.  I just keep to myself when it comes to gaming nowadays.  Everyone else can go take a long walk off a short pier.



But yeah, until those people come up with actual superior TOOLS (that are just as easy to use, mind you), I'll not really see it any differently.  Like I've said:  Afterbirth+ was NEVER about it's content.  It was about handing the game off to the players.  And right now, there's no such thing as better modding tools for it.  People always say "Oh well such-and-such could make better tools than these stupid devs" but I notice that as expected, nobody backs that up at all.

And no, the old tools dont count. They were useless.  Been there, done that...

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2017, 12:13:11 PM »
This kind of fits into this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dt_fPSnn4M

If you are not familiar with this, Sonny was a very popular Flash RPG on Armor games and Newgrounds, that was... I think 5 years ago? Maybe even longer. so it's a very OLD game. The game got a sequel and a third game was in the planning to conclude the story, but it was never realized. Until now. Sonny (iOS) is actually a reimagening of the series, it tells the story a new, it starts with 1, goes over to part 2 and finally finishes it. But it does tell a different story compared to the original series, so it's not really a sequel and not really a remake.

So, about the topic: People are upset about the graphics. Sonny (the original) had moving characters, every attack was animated. Also equipped items appeared on the characters. The mobile version however features (detailed) sprites that simply clash into each other just like in Pokemon. And while I understand the disappointment in that, it does not ffect the gameplay in the slightest. In fact, I like this game more than the original series. This is of course arguable but in my opinion the developer nailed it with this game.
But add to the fact that it costs 3$ compared to two free games and also a mobile oly versionw hile the other games were on PC and you have an angry fanbase.

Anyway, I think the game is great and all but after so long time, what did the fans except? Most of the time he probably gave up on it anyway and just recently would have worked on it. It's not like he worked these entire 5 years on the project.

Offline Misery

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2017, 07:21:20 PM »
So basically "OMG not enough grafix", so they think they shouldnt have to pay. A measly $3, no less. I'm going to yet again blame the AAA side of the industry for instilling this type of view in everyone. 

Ugh.  I miss the old consoles.  Hearing about stuff like this usually just makes me want to go back to my trusty 2600 or 7800.  No worries about graphics there (though frankly I like the way most of them look), just pure gameplay, that's IT.   And no... freaking... cutscenes.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2017, 12:34:37 PM »
So basically "OMG not enough grafix", so they think they shouldnt have to pay. A measly $3, no less. I'm going to yet again blame the AAA side of the industry for instilling this type of view in everyone. 

Ugh.  I miss the old consoles.  Hearing about stuff like this usually just makes me want to go back to my trusty 2600 or 7800.  No worries about graphics there (though frankly I like the way most of them look), just pure gameplay, that's IT.   And no... freaking... cutscenes.

Or 7 screens of logos...that you can't skip.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2017, 02:26:30 PM »
it does not ffect the gameplay in the slightest

And I give no hugs.
You know why?

Because the combat was boring and that's all the game was (with an awesome story, but no other gameplay).  Except in #3? Ish? Where the progression was "you're fighting an acid boss next, go respec into acid resistance. If you don't, you're going to lose."  Except the game didn't tell you you should respec for every fight, it was just kind of assumed because respecing was free.

To which I said, "Then what was the lovably point of a skill tree? I want to build the character to fight the way I want to fight. I don't want to fiddle and dicker about with skills between every area.  That's not interesting, it's paper work."

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2017, 09:20:44 PM »
That's a point but I figured out, Sonny (3) is more of a puzzle game than a traditional rpg game. Every area has their own unique enemies with unique traits. The areas are designed around the different elements of the game (physical, natural, frost, fire, electric, shadow) and basically once you reach a new area all you have to do is buy equipment with resistances towards the new enemies (which is not even hard because the located shop prived you with it). The bosses and mid-bosses are kind of harder to deal with, because they work so special.
Like I said, it's rather a puzzle game than an RPG. I noticed this late because you could power your way through the first area but not after that. At area 3 I finally noticed what it really is and all I have to do now is to understand how the puzzle works. That leads to fights that either end disastrous for me (because I had the wrong set up) or perfect because I found the correct set up.
Figureing out what to use is kind of the fun in the game. But some bosses are just dicks. Nothing to argue there. I think the Super Treant/Super Titan mid-boss fight was one of the worst things I ever fought and I still don't fully know what exactly I did to win.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2017, 12:10:17 AM »
If a paid expansion is inferior to a fan made mod, then I really question the paid expansion's quality.
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Offline Misery

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2017, 04:40:33 AM »
If a paid expansion is inferior to a fan made mod, then I really question the paid expansion's quality.

Again, it's A: subjective, and B: not about the content (well... sort of)

The difference is simple:  Antibirth (the fan-made mod) is PURELY about content.  Nothing else.  Afterbirth+, the official expansion, isnt even an expansion:  It's entirely about MODDING.  Adding support for that, MOST of which is in the new Lua functionality (as in, the engine of the game restructured to fully facilitate that).  The extra content?  A mere bonus (and yet even then, it honestly still comes very bloody close to the amount that Antibirth has).   And I"ve spent some more time with the whole thing myself, particularly beginning to learn the modding stuff.  It really IS all about the Lua, and THAT is very, very clearly where the vast majority of the focus is.  It doesnt matter what you want the game to do:  You can now make it do it.   Someone made freaking Tetris in there.  I've come up with tons of ideas for things myself, some of which are super quirky (or super complicated), because of course they are, and from what I"ve seen, ALL of them, and I mean every single tiny bit of every idea, is totally possible.   Not only that, but not too hard to do.  I'm actually surprised at the low numbers of lines of code it takes to do things in there.  And then the OTHER half of that is downloading and easily using mods from the workshop.   I'm stating it now, and I bloody guarantee you this will happen:  Someone is going to make a large mod, out of these tools, that will totally stomp Antibirth into the ground.  And it'll have two huge advantages over Antibirth:  1, it wont take 2 freaking years to make, and 2, it WONT REQUIRE LOSING AFTERBIRTH.    For such a "high quality" thing, the fact that you have to DROP normal Afterbirth JUST to use Antibirth is more than a little silly. They had two years to get that right... they failed.   So if you want THAT, you not only lose out on ALL the new mods, all the new AB+ content, but you even have to tear out the original AB content. And just that part in itself is a HUGE amount of stuff.  The first Afterbirth was a huge expansion.


So.... yeah.  I'm going on the record (again) and saying that no, it's not superior, that fan-made bit.   From everything that I've seen (and yes, I've tried Antibirth... it seems to be yet another "mostly shiny graphics" sort of thing, where that's the actual source of the "quality" comments; the actual gameplay content was kinda "meh" to be honest, but it sure is shiny), it's the other way around. 

The ONLY two things that bother me with AB+ are the Void area (doesnt make sense), and the screwball interface for the room editor.   Other than that... it's everything I wanted it to be.  ANd there's already a staggering amount of stuff to download for it (and the devs will be adding the best ones to the game officially over time, providing they fit certain criteria of course). 



There, I"m done. I'm mostly rambling because I"m bored out of my mind here. There's nothing to do at this time of day.  I dont sit still well.  Ugh.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2017, 06:34:41 AM »
Again, it's A: subjective, and B: not about the content (well... sort of)
So.... yeah.  I'm going on the record (again) and saying that no, it's not superior, that fan-made bit.   From everything that I've seen (and yes, I've tried Antibirth... it seems to be yet another "mostly shiny graphics" sort of thing, where that's the actual source of the "quality" comments; the actual gameplay content was kinda "meh" to be honest, but it sure is shiny), it's the other way around. 
Eh, I think much of it comes from the fact that you, like me, play games very differently to most people, Misery. We tend to dive really deeply into *mechanics* and unless those are spot on, we simply can't enjoy the game, whereas other people might not even notice the problems because they're playing "just for fun". That's not a derogatory thing, btw. That's just differences in taste.
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Offline Misery

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Re: So, self-entitlement in the industry....
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2017, 06:41:06 PM »
Again, it's A: subjective, and B: not about the content (well... sort of)
So.... yeah.  I'm going on the record (again) and saying that no, it's not superior, that fan-made bit.   From everything that I've seen (and yes, I've tried Antibirth... it seems to be yet another "mostly shiny graphics" sort of thing, where that's the actual source of the "quality" comments; the actual gameplay content was kinda "meh" to be honest, but it sure is shiny), it's the other way around. 
Eh, I think much of it comes from the fact that you, like me, play games very differently to most people, Misery. We tend to dive really deeply into *mechanics* and unless those are spot on, we simply can't enjoy the game, whereas other people might not even notice the problems because they're playing "just for fun". That's not a derogatory thing, btw. That's just differences in taste.

Yeah, I'm aware of that.  It's bloody irritating, it is.  That sorta thing has generally been my whole problem with Antibirth actually:  Yeah, it's pretty, but mechanically, it's a mess.  Just... ugh.  If it were a part of AB+, I wouldnt be so bothered by it:  I could just mod the derpy parts.  But... feh.  Aint much point in worrying about that.

But yeah, seems much of the gaming community really is like that.  It's especially irritating when it comes to discussion topics in a general sense (outside of this forum).  Even IRL I just keep to myself these days rather than discuss any gaming stuffs with anyone I know, since there's not too much point anymore.  ....Doesnt help that all they ever do is play Dark Souls over and over and over.  I really dont understand why.  I'll be glad when that game sorta dies down a bit.

I've totally forgotten where I was going with any of this at all.  Was I going somewhere?  Probably not.  Too much caffiene, cant focus...