So League of Legends Season 3...

[chemical_art]

This is the problem. As a solo player, I don't feel like I should be penalized for what is essentially a random for my purposes matchmaker. Yes, it's a team game, but that's the point. I'm not a team, and I picked solo queue because it was a way for me to play by myself. I don't care how it's fixed, just that it is.

The bolded part for me brings up a conundrum.

You are wanting a team game, where you are tasked alone, and then are upset that things are random. I ask how can it be made better? The game doesn't send 5 random players against a 5 player team, it sends the random 5 players against another 5 random players. For ranked games skill levels are very tight in terms of wins / losses, and mildly in normal games as well (supposedly). How do you measure teamwork and skill in a objective way other then win losses? You can't use statistics like kills or gold because supports don't use these. I would understand if 5 man randoms went against teams, but it doesn't work like that. The other team is just as random as you are, so you aren't penalized any more for going solo.

I know you say you don't care how it is fixed, just that it is, but I'm wondering what more critera can be used for matchmaker other then the current wins / losses. You can't measure teamwork in individual parts, because teamwork inherently is being greater then the sum of the parts, which results in victories or defeats. You can't really select "roles" for players pre match if you want to do draft games because otherwise you would cause more headaches then you solve. For example, if you join as a carry, then if someone ahead of you in draft counterpicks your carry, you don't want to be locked into carry if another teammate is skilled to counter their counterpick. Or if a player is a support, and all their familiar supports are banned / taken / counterpicked, they require the flexibility to change roles. At least 15% of my draft games involve the players on my side changing a role somewhat in response to the other player's draft team.

To go back to my original question in what way objective, concrete, factual way can you measure teamwork?

[Lancefighter]

Honestly, the only answer to that is to recommend ranked teams.

I see no real reason to play soloq, myself. Sure, I could very likely be VERY highly rated (my friends continue to insist I could be a plat player, and I've played against plats in normals and won). Some of my friends that I know are considerably less than me in skill are actually rated kinda highly.

So I could very likely be a good league player. But do I care? Not really. I just dont find soloq fun. So I dont do it. There is a fairly small part of me that actually does want to know what level I could be playing at if I wanted, but overall that is overshadowed by the not wanting to deal with people that arent on my friendslist.

Sure, part of this probably comes off as overconfident average league player falling victim to the Dunning-Kruger effect.. but each time I look through one of my games and recognize where I actually went wrong or could have done better, this honestly reinforces my belief. Sure, I probably cant instantly become a plat player right now (I likely have some fairly poor habits due to my typical enemy), but I am confident that if I wanted to I could.


And then I actually have no clue where this post was supposed to end up. I believe I am supposed to be posing the opinion that soloq is generally not fun anyway, so you shouldnt do it. Yeah, that sounds good.

[chemical_art]

I don't know, I view soloq as a gamble. Sometimes I win big, sometimes I lose big, always I have to think on my feet and learn to communicate with people I've never met before. It's inherently more chaotic the pre set 5 teams, especially if it is not draft. It's a very different experience, and sometimes I dig it big time, and other times I want the more razor sharp (for both teams) coordination that goes with pre sets.

[RCIX]

This is the problem. As a solo player, I don't feel like I should be penalized for what is essentially a random for my purposes matchmaker. Yes, it's a team game, but that's the point. I'm not a team, and I picked solo queue because it was a way for me to play by myself. I don't care how it's fixed, just that it is.

The bolded part for me brings up a conundrum.

You are wanting a team game, where you are tasked alone, and then are upset that things are random. I ask how can it be made better? The game doesn't send 5 random players against a 5 player team, it sends the random 5 players against another 5 random players. For ranked games skill levels are very tight in terms of wins / losses, and mildly in normal games as well (supposedly). How do you measure teamwork and skill in a objective way other then win losses? You can't use statistics like kills or gold because supports don't use these. I would understand if 5 man randoms went against teams, but it doesn't work like that. The other team is just as random as you are, so you aren't penalized any more for going solo.

I don't particularly care whether it's a team game as long as I get a game wherein my actions are one of the primary influences of outcome; I just think it's disingenuous to say "heres solo queue" (the name of which and what it's primarily used for implies playing primarily by oneself) and "haha its a team game, deal with it" in the same breath (as a general statement that League ends up making overall, not something you said). The concept of soloqueue is incompatible with the concept of a team game, plain and simple.

I know you say you don't care how it is fixed, just that it is, but I'm wondering what more critera can be used for matchmaker other then the current wins / losses. You can't measure teamwork in individual parts, because teamwork inherently is being greater then the sum of the parts, which results in victories or defeats. You can't really select "roles" for players pre match if you want to do draft games because otherwise you would cause more headaches then you solve. For example, if you join as a carry, then if someone ahead of you in draft counterpicks your carry, you don't want to be locked into carry if another teammate is skilled to counter their counterpick. Or if a player is a support, and all their familiar supports are banned / taken / counterpicked, they require the flexibility to change roles. At least 15% of my draft games involve the players on my side changing a role somewhat in response to the other player's draft team.

To go back to my original question in what way objective, concrete, factual way can you measure teamwork?

Something I thought of which is more aimed at smoothing draft/ranked queuing:
 * Instead of just clicking "Play" and queuing for a mode, you click play then pick a champion you want, and 3 bans in case you get matched as a team captain.
 * You're then put in a queue, and about 1/5th of players in that queue are selected as team captains.
 * These captains are dropped in to champ select with their champions and bans, and then pick champions back and forth.
 * As champions are selected, people queuing as that champion are matched into that slot
 * Game launche
 
What does this do?
 * There's no arguing over who gets what role
 * Champions are always being played by someone who made the choice to queue up as them
 * Everyone gets experience with team comps and counterpicking, since this is something best done when treating a team as a single unit

I don't know, I view soloq as a gamble. Sometimes I win big, sometimes I lose big, always I have to think on my feet and learn to communicate with people I've never met before. It's inherently more chaotic the pre set 5 teams, especially if it is not draft. It's a very different experience, and sometimes I dig it big time, and other times I want the more razor sharp (for both teams) coordination that goes with pre sets.

I didn't sign up for a gamble, and League pretends it's not a gamble. If i wanted that, I'd go look up not-real-money online slots or poker =/

[chemical_art]

I don't particularly care whether it's a team game as long as I get a game wherein my actions are one of the primary influences of outcome; I just think it's disingenuous to say "heres solo queue" (the name of which and what it's primarily used for implies playing primarily by oneself) and "haha its a team game, deal with it" in the same breath (as a general statement that League ends up making overall, not something you said). The concept of soloqueue is incompatible with the concept of a team game, plain and simple.

In your opinion. Others, like myself, enjoy it very much. On the other hand I don't get annoyed in other games where there is matchmaking because I view it in the same vein. Just because you don't like the option doesn't mean you have to play it. You can form your own team, or you can play PvE, or create your own custom game.


Something I thought of which is more aimed at smoothing draft/ranked queuing:
 * Instead of just clicking "Play" and queuing for a mode, you click play then pick a champion you want, and 3 bans in case you get matched as a team captain.
 * You're then put in a queue, and about 1/5th of players in that queue are selected as team captains.
 * These captains are dropped in to champ select with their champions and bans, and then pick champions back and forth.
 * As champions are selected, people queuing as that champion are matched into that slot
 * Game launche

There is a problem though, there is no way to coordinate roles at all.  You are giving one captain all of the power in selection. The games are even more mish mashed because for example the carry and support can't know who the other character can be aside from the whim of the captain. You are putting the faith of team selection to one person independent of input from others, and if there is one thing I think we can all agree is that individual players in solo q are anything but reliable as a whole, and this would amplify this effect greatly.

That is to say nothing of the logistical nightmare. Instead of jumping into a solo q in less then a minute with a mild degree of parity, it  will destroy any hope of some parity in skill and/or send waits through the roof as the game searches for an unusual champ. It also destroys any hope for out of the box match ups, like for example (in a recent game of mine, an Ashe and Kayle combo), because either the captain or the role players won't agree to the setup and thus it won't work.

And most importantly, it doesn't create teamwork in game. To cite an earlier example, if you are top, and bottom feeds, there is still nothing that can be done. 
 
What does this do?
 * There's no arguing over who gets what role

Not really. There are plenty of characters who can do multiple roles, especially jungle and top. If someone picks a character that does both then what occurs is you can have two champs wanting to jungle or top, except now neither can change their champ after they agree on who does what. And if you say champ X does Y role, then the above problems of long waits and destroying unusual roles increases dramatically, to use my above example the wait for a support Kayle will be insane for its not that common at all. In the long run, it'll stagnate the meta even more as unusual combinations are discontinued in favor of wanting to play before 15 minutes have passed.

 * Champions are always being played by someone who made the choice to queue up as them

Yes, but not necessary in their desired role. And if they do pick their role, and their role isn't the current "meta" then prepare for very long waits since there are so many champs to begin with.
 * Everyone gets experience with team comps and counterpicking, since this is something best done when treating a team as a single unit

How? You get a mish mash of independently selected characters for each role from anyone aside from the captain. You can't form a team because everyone has selected their champ ahead of time.


I didn't sign up for a gamble, and League pretends it's not a gamble. If i wanted that, I'd go look up not-real-money online slots or poker =/

If you don't want a gamble then play PvE, for that's the same in every game. PvP is inherently a gamble because people are not machines, and MOBA's have counters. Every team comp is a gamble in some way versus another team. Whether you pick that team that's built to snowball or the team meant to hold on until 45 minutes into the game or the team primarily AP, the very many variables make it a gamble. Not to mention the gamble of whether the various teams are perfoming well or poor compared to their usual performance, their varying playstyles, etc.

If league wasn't a gamble, then you wouldn't need to play. You would see the champ setup, then a computer would run the numbers to see who wins versus said comps, and you would get a result that's the same every time.


This is all extreme, but its to illustrate that PvP by its nature, due to the hundreds of variables involved, is never a sure bet for anything. SoloQ is the greatest example of this because it has the most random variables.


I'm not saying SoloQ is the best for every situation, but it does accomplish getting players into games very quickly with somewhat even footing as far as skill (win / losses) goes. If you want guaranteed team comps you form a team, if you just the same experience day by day you play PvE, if you want to have more then 3 minutes for 10 players to sort out their game you can join a custom server.

[RCIX]

If you don't want a gamble then play PvE, for that's the same in every game. PvP is inherently a gamble because people are not machines, and MOBA's have counters. Every team comp is a gamble in some way versus another team. Whether you pick that team that's built to snowball or the team meant to hold on until 45 minutes into the game or the team primarily AP, the very many variables make it a gamble. Not to mention the gamble of whether the various teams are perfoming well or poor compared to their usual performance, their varying playstyles, etc.

If league wasn't a gamble, then you wouldn't need to play. You would see the champ setup, then a computer would run the numbers to see who wins versus said comps, and you would get a result that's the same every time.


This is all extreme, but its to illustrate that PvP by its nature, due to the hundreds of variables involved, is never a sure bet for anything. SoloQ is the greatest example of this because it has the most random variables.


I'm not saying SoloQ is the best for every situation, but it does accomplish getting players into games very quickly with somewhat even footing as far as skill (win / losses) goes. If you want guaranteed team comps you form a team, if you just the same experience day by day you play PvE, if you want to have more then 3 minutes for 10 players to sort out their game you can join a custom server.

Okay, so you seem to be missing my main point. Which is, League is balanced with the primary unit of consideration being a team of players, not a single one. Solo queue is an environment in which it is inherently impossible to reliably perform coordination to the degree that a League team requires. This is a very fundamental mismatch, and creates an incredibly inconsistent experience (as distinguished from "un-samey". I want variety. I do not want 80% of my games to be stomps). Full stop. No "but i like it that way so it's fine", No "just get better", no "go play something else" (which is again not addressing anything I say).

That doesn't necessarily speak to whether it works or not, because DotA is a living example of a ton of random crap being thrown together and staying because it happened to not fall apart. Dota, specifically Dota 2, is also an example of how tightly people will hold onto an archaic system because it "is fine that way".

And re: gambling, no, i don't want "the same experience very time". Not sure where you got that. I want variety. I'm fine with *some* degree of uncertainty, but not the "you are one person out of 2 teams and have very little effective influence if you aren't vastly outskilling your enemy" that League touts.

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Bottom line: I want moba (multiplayer does NOT imply teams). I want PVP. And I want it to be a fair game for ME. Period.

[Hearteater]

Bottom line: I want moba (multiplayer does NOT imply teams). I want PVP. And I want it to be a fair game for ME. Period.

And solo queue is fair in LoL.

[chemical_art]

I don't understand what you think isn't fair about solo q. The teams are random from the very beginning on both sides.

In about 80% of my games the teams work out their roles and they follow the meta. About 15% don't follow the meta but not completely unreasonable so aren't objected to. Only about 5% of my games do players aruge and can't form an agreement before the picks and / or form an unreasonable team comp (the last time I remember was when there was a a soraka, sona, and taric)

So, to correct that 5%, you want to make matchmaking longer, make one player have all the say in team comps, stagnate even harder the following of the  assumed meta, hurt champs with multi potential roles, all just in team selection the captain has the option to make a defined team (because there is nothing stopping them from making three AP characters to rush mid, or two supports to support top and bot), then I say it causes a lot more headaches then it causes.

If anything, it hurts your desired goal of "League is balanced with the primary unit of consideration being a team of players, not a single one". For example if I am support, if my carry is are heavily mana dependent I go Soraka and the carry goes spamming abilities. If I have an aggressive early carry I pick a taric and start laying down stuns while healing and providing armor. If my teammate wants extra dps I pick Sona. Or, if my carry asks me to pick someone else, I have the option to.Similarly with some tops and junglers I know, the two coordinate to lay down some nasty ganks. You cannot have this coordination if only player makes the picks at the start of the game and other players come to fill in those ganks. Nor does this option allow counter picks of any sort.

[RCIX]

Bottom line: I want moba (multiplayer does NOT imply teams). I want PVP. And I want it to be a fair game for ME. Period.

And solo queue is fair in LoL.

Okay, so you seem to be missing my main point. Which is, League is balanced with the primary unit of consideration being a team of players, not a single one. Solo queue is an environment in which it is inherently impossible to reliably perform coordination to the degree that a League team requires. This is a very fundamental mismatch, and creates an incredibly inconsistent experience (as distinguished from "un-samey".

I never said it wasn't fair at all, I said it wasn't fair if you consider a solo player.


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I don't understand what you think isn't fair about solo q. The teams are random from the very beginning on both sides.

In about 80% of my games the teams work out their roles and they follow the meta. About 15% don't follow the meta but not completely unreasonable so aren't objected to. Only about 5% of my games do players aruge and can't form an agreement before the picks and / or form an unreasonable team comp (the last time I remember was when there was a a soraka, sona, and taric)

So, to correct that 5%, you want to make matchmaking longer, make one player have all the say in team comps, stagnate even harder the following of the  assumed meta, hurt champs with multi potential roles, all just in team selection the captain has the option to make a defined team (because there is nothing stopping them from making three AP characters to rush mid, or two supports to support top and bot), then I say it causes a lot more headaches then it causes.

If anything, it hurts your desired goal of "League is balanced with the primary unit of consideration being a team of players, not a single one". For example if I am support, if my carry is are heavily mana dependent I go Soraka and the carry goes spamming abilities. If I have an aggressive early carry I pick a taric and start laying down stuns while healing and providing armor. If my teammate wants extra dps I pick Sona. Or, if my carry asks me to pick someone else, I have the option to.Similarly with some tops and junglers I know, the two coordinate to lay down some nasty ganks. You cannot have this coordination if only player makes the picks at the start of the game and other players come to fill in those ganks. Nor does this option allow counter picks of any sort.

Okay, so you seem to be missing my main point. Which is, League is balanced with the primary unit of consideration being a team of players, not a single one. Solo queue is an environment in which it is inherently impossible to reliably perform coordination to the degree that a League team requires. This is a very fundamental mismatch, and creates an incredibly inconsistent experience (as distinguished from "un-samey".

If you reread that, that's not my goal....

[Hearteater]

I never said it wasn't fair at all, I said it wasn't fair if you consider a solo player.

Sorry, you're wrong.  You may not like solo queue in LoL and I won't argue that you should because that's just personal taste.  But your evaluation of its fairness towards a single person is nonsensical.

[Mánagarmr]

Sorry, you're wrong.  You may not like solo queue in LoL and I won't argue that you should because that's just personal taste.  But your evaluation of its fairness towards a single person is nonsensical.

You might want to add some arguments to that to prevent it from becoming a pointless ad hominem.

[Hearteater]

I'm saying his argument was nonsense, not that he is, so it isn't ad hominem.  He even conveniently quoted himself making a nonsensical argument.  I'd explain and support my point if I felt there was any chance RCIX would benefit.  Since I'm reasonable certain nothing I say will help his confusion and I'm very short on free time at the moment, I'm content to make him aware that his arguments have not moved me.

[chemical_art]

I am on the sidelines as well. I  simply cannot understand how the system is inherently unfair. Requoting in response to a question of how is not an answer at all, and for me indicates I'm wasting me time. Never mind that.RCIX says that solo q is fair, except for the individual player (?)

[Hearteater]

There is a pricing policy change for LoL that looks promising.  Basically, new champs every 3-4 weeks now, instead of every 12 (so 14-17 in 2013) and all champs start at the high price mark, but their price goes down over time (each time a new champ appears, an old one drops in price).

[RCIX]

I am on the sidelines as well. I  simply cannot understand how the system is inherently unfair. Requoting in response to a question of how is not an answer at all, and for me indicates I'm wasting me time. Never mind that.RCIX says that solo q is fair, except for the individual player (?)

It's quite simple (which is honestly leaving me scratching my head at what I did wrong in explaining it). What element size was chosen to balance around? The team. League is fair and balanced, if you can treat a team as a single working unit. In solo queue, that's the exact assumption you cannot make. This results in so many core mechanics and design assumptions falling apart, and leads to a really inconsistent game experience.

You can "like" struggling to make your team shut up, sit down, and do the right thing, but that doesn't make it well designed or good. People love orb effects in Dota, and that's one of the most dumb, confusing setups I've ever seen ("oh hey, here are onhits but you can only have one. Except for the few ones that stack. Oh, and the onhits that don't fall into this category. Don't forget some of them only apply to melee characters and heres a weird system for picking which one gets applied").

There is a pricing policy change for LoL that looks promising.  Basically, new champs every 3-4 weeks now, instead of every 12 (so 14-17 in 2013) and all champs start at the high price mark, but their price goes down over time (each time a new champ appears, an old one drops in price).

It's (release rate) already been this way for ~5 champs =p