Author Topic: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged  (Read 20629 times)

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2014, 03:05:30 am »
I totally understand that, for the normal gamer there is not a lot of reasons for this to matter or make you worry, but for Indy devs the matter is another one entirely. After all, if you give IGF money to enter and they only give awards (And thus vast price money) to indy devs that they are directly affiliated with.... that is kinda horrible no? ;) And remember, the Game Developer Conference is affected here too) In case you ever wondered why you only heard about CERTAIN games on the GDC and not others.

As long as you get your news from proper forums, youtube, and not just comment threads on sites that are agenda driven (like Reddit is, by the way) you may never notice anything. But remember, if you do that, you are the vast minority. Sadly way too many people get their news and hype exclusively from pseudo news sites like Kotaku, Destructoid or RPS. Or indeed Gamasutra.

I guess I just didn't expect this at all.

At least something good seems to come of it.

http://www.goodgamers.us/

:) We'll see.
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Offline doctorfrog

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2014, 04:07:08 am »
Just to be clear, if these allegations are true, it definitely doesn't sound fair, and it's not right. If it were "my industry" I'd be pretty upset. Sadly, it seems like this sort of behavior is basically the norm.

Sometimes it seems like innovation in the whole world economy is driven by getting over on someone. Every time I go food shopping I have to scrutinize every food container to see how much smaller the contents are, and how much the price has gone up, and how the packaging and promotions are designed specifically to disguise this. I go get gas, and the price is higher than advertised, because I don't have cash. A family member installed some PDF viewing software and is now infected by something that hijacks her browser, but the AV and adware programs didn't catch it, because it's technically a PUP and not a virus.

Sure, dishonesty has always been something of a rule, but I mean it when I say, "innovation is mainly being driven by getting over on someone." It's not about invention, seeking solutions to problems, it's about shoveling something no one wants into as many faces as possible, and jumping ship before the company explodes or just after it is acquired by someone.

This nonsense is everywhere, 10 times a day, and it's tiresome.

Welp, this turned into a rant. Sorry. Bedtime.

Offline wwwhhattt

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2014, 05:01:35 am »
The only thing that seems to be worth taking seriously here is the amount of abuse people are getting

Gamers are just answering in kind.
http://markdownshare.com/view/a524affd-e679-40be-8aa1-72058065dc2a
All those articles are writers responding to the drama, and it's not an argument with gamers as a whole - it's an argument with some gamers who feel that they're being sidelined because so many writers and developers are keen to include people beyond the stereotypical teenage boys AAA companies used to target.

Although I do think the Death of the Gamer thing is a bit far, mainly because it means accepting that the angry people who think their games are being taken away by evil feminists have some kind of claim to being called Real Gamers. I agreed with bits of this (although the site is filled with adverts, far more than anything I'm used to. I don't know if forbes is normally any good, but I can't dislike someone who argues that both sides are wrong, while accepting that he probably is too).

It's hard to take the corruption thing seriously when it started off with a developer who had already been getting abuse for making the first twine game to get greenlit, who had a relationship with a writer who went on to write nothing more about her, and when so much of it is tied up in anti-feminist 'things were great until you came along' crap.

Hopefully the goodgamers site works out for the people who need it though, it'll be interesting to see how different they manage to be.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2014, 07:37:16 am »
The only thing that seems to be worth taking seriously here is the amount of abuse people are getting

Gamers are just answering in kind.
http://markdownshare.com/view/a524affd-e679-40be-8aa1-72058065dc2a
All those articles are writers responding to the drama, and it's not an argument with gamers as a whole - it's an argument with some gamers who feel that they're being sidelined because so many writers and developers are keen to include people beyond the stereotypical teenage boys AAA companies used to target.

Although I do think the Death of the Gamer thing is a bit far, mainly because it means accepting that the angry people who think their games are being taken away by evil feminists have some kind of claim to being called Real Gamers. I agreed with bits of this (although the site is filled with adverts, far more than anything I'm used to. I don't know if forbes is normally any good, but I can't dislike someone who argues that both sides are wrong, while accepting that he probably is too).

It's hard to take the corruption thing seriously when it started off with a developer who had already been getting abuse for making the first twine game to get greenlit, who had a relationship with a writer who went on to write nothing more about her, and when so much of it is tied up in anti-feminist 'things were great until you came along' crap.

Hopefully the goodgamers site works out for the people who need it though, it'll be interesting to see how different they manage to be.

Well I hope it works out too..

But honestly, I can not muster any pity for someone who posts on public twitter


Maybe I am odd like that ;)
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2014, 02:27:25 pm »
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/cronyism-lies-and-censorship-what-zoe-quinn-and-feminism-bring-to-gaming-part-1/

There is no denying that there is mysogyny and unfairness towards women in the gaming community. Let's be completely honest, for many people, the gaming world is a place for social outcasts who have become so battered, abused, and disenfranchised with the social world that they use these games to escape reality and to create a new one.

Men are particularly known for doing this, especially men who feel they've been ostracized and rejected by females to the point that they've given up and completely immersed themselves in a world (video games) in which all the females are attractive and they like you.

In essence, for many men, the gaming world and the gaming community has become a "safe haven" from all the pressures, judgements, and unfairness of the actual world in which they feel inept, undesirable, and rejected (and in many cases, they actually are).

Misogyny is a part of this. Bitterness goes along with having to escape reality just to feel loved and accepted by women. So yes, many of the men in the gaming community are socially awkward and somewhat nasty around women, though my sister, someone who has spent much of her life in that community, doesn't feel it's much worse than you would find on a college campus or anywhere else.

I just want to say however, that with controversies like this, in which women, who are already viewed with suspicion and fear in this community, begin doing extremely manipulative and unthinkable things, such as some of the things you've hard about in this thread, then blaming the misogyny of the gaming community when they get caught, are digging their own graves. I honestly have no sympathy for them.

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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2014, 06:57:26 pm »
There's a lot of bitterness going on all around.  It's a weapon which does most of its harm to the holder.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2014, 10:20:45 pm »

I just had an interaction with one of the female authors at rock paper shotgun prior to learning about this scandal. I had written a complaint that many of her 's.exe' articles come off as man hating, and the sympathy that I have towards the subject of misogyny is somewhat put off when the author is immediately on the attack because of the pipework in my pants. There are plenty of guys out there who are decent people. The Internet is full of jerks. I don't know what I can do about that.


And for all of the complaints about misogyny, don't we all have stories about female gamers getting special treatment? Is that also misogyny? I have seen so many alleged female gamers getting handouts in so many games, treated like royalty merely because they are a rare occurrence, and happily surrounded by males drooling over them. More often than not, I have seen them exploit this, eat it up, revel in it, and at the expense of others. Some might say, "well, since men exploit women in games, no sympathy if they exploit men, too." All right, let's just admit everybody is exploiting everyone else as if they were part of the game.


I used to play a night elf female in World of Warcraft a) easy on the eyes and b) everyone let me play in their groups and gave me free stuff. I never said I was a female (because I'm male), but by the time I quit, rumor went around that I was taking a break due to pregnancy.  :D  I let that stand because it was so damned hilarious. Guys can be really stupid when the fantasy of a female in the group is in their minds.


When I create characters in RPG's, I invariably create beautiful women because, frankly a 60 hour journey through the bowels of hell needn't be hard on the eyes. I don't want to look at a male character busting out of his armor when I can do the exact same thing and have it be female. Does that make me some kind of pig? I don't think so. I consider myself well-adjusted. And with that said, I think that women should be able to do the same thing. If they want to have some kind of muscle-man or whatever as what they get to stare at for 60 hours, so be it. Have at it. It's a harmless thing, and I don't think that we need to be handing out digital breast reductions and baggy armor loot to combat misogyny. And if we are going to go that route, then don't be a hypocrite about it and apply that logic to music, movies, and every other part of your life where people enjoy and use their own sexuality because they are human. My digital ample-breasted skyrim character is of no concern- I hope!- to any woman out there on the Internet. And by the way ladies  who may or may not be reading this, just because we create some kind of fantasy female in our games is not a statement about you. It's not a criticism about you. It's not about you! You are fine just the way you are. It's only a fantasy. "So that's what you like!" No, men like well-adjusted, sane, decent human beings of all packages. It's going to be okay. If you feel there is a race to some kind of ideal, that's part of the propaganda, it's not the reality. That's like saying all men should be worried that our women are going to run away with sparkle vampires.

So addressing the scandal at hand, the tragic thing is, all of the true pigs on the Internet now have a specific incident in mind when they will accuse women of getting special treatment. And the fact that these allegations include the big gaming news sites that have been all about manufacturing sentiment against the word "gamer" for their own clickbait purposes makes it all the more difficult to advance the cause they claim to care about.


Your outrage meter is your own, but, I think we can at least have some measure of sympathy for the people who paid money to enter their games into this alleged rigged competition. That isn't right. If this extends to the journalistic side and the articles that get written, that's not right also. And people have a right to be outraged.


The other stuff about who did what, who was banging whom, it starts to get amusing at that point. It's beyond absurd. I don't condone the personal harassment, the showing up at the houses, the apartments, ddos'ing, doxx'ing, all that stuff needs to stop. It looks like the major characters in the story were all playing a very dangerous game, and it went nuclear at the end.


I'm sure we haven't heard the last of this story.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 10:34:38 pm by Cyborg »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2014, 10:31:36 pm »
Yea, so long as folks keep up the "because of abuse X against me/people-in-the-same-group-as-me, it's ok for me to abuse (insert target here)" the situation is probably not going to get much better.
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Offline zespri

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2014, 10:32:59 pm »

I just had an interaction with one of the female authors at rock paper shotgun prior to learning about this scandal. I had written a complaint that many of her 's.exe' articles come off as man hating, and the sympathy that I have towards the subject of misogyny is somewhat put off when the author is immediately on the attack because of the pipework in my pants. There are plenty of guys out there who are decent people. The Internet is full of jerks. I don't know what I can do about that.


And for all of the complaints about misogyny, don't we all have stories about female gamers getting special treatment? Is that also misogyny? I have seen so many alleged female gamers getting handouts in so many games, treated like royalty merely because they are a rare occurrence, and happily surrounded by males drooling over them. More often than not, I have seen them exploit this, eat it up, revel in it, and at the expense of others. Some might say, "well, since men exploit women in games, no sympathy if they exploit men, too." All right, let's just admit everybody is exploiting everyone else as if they were part of the game.


I used to play a night elf female in World of Warcraft a) easy on the eyes and b) everyone let me play in their groups and gave me free stuff. I never said I was a female (because I'm male), but by the time I quit, rumor went around that I was taking a break due to pregnancy.  :D  I let that stand because it was so damned hilarious. Guys can be really stupid when the fantasy of a female in the group is in their minds.


When I create characters in RPG's, I invariably create beautiful women because, frankly a 60 hour journey through the bowels of hell needn't be hard on the eyes. I don't want to look at a male character busting out of his armor when I can do the exact same thing and have it be female. Does that make me some kind of pig? I don't think so. I consider myself well-adjusted. And with that said, I think that women should be able to do the same thing. If they want to have some kind of muscle-man or whatever as what they get to stare at for 60 hours, so be it. Have at it. It's a harmless thing, and I don't think that we need to be handing out digital breast reductions and baggy armor loot to combat misogyny. And if we are going to go that route, then don't be a hypocrite about it and apply that logic to music, movies, and every other part of your life where people enjoy and use their own sexuality because they are human. My digital ample-breasted skyrim character is of no concern- I hope!- to any woman out there on the Internet. And by the way ladies  who may or may not be reading this, just because we create some kind of fantasy female in our games is not a statement about you. It's not a criticism about you. It's not about you! You are fine just the way you are. It's only a fantasy. "So that's what you like!" No, men like well-adjusted, sane, decent human beings of all packages. It's going to be okay. If you feel there is a race to some kind of ideal, that's part of the propaganda, it's not the reality.

Amen. Could not agree more.

Offline mrhanman

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2014, 10:54:25 am »
When I create characters in RPG's, I invariably create beautiful women because, frankly a 60 hour journey through the bowels of hell needn't be hard on the eyes.

Oh, Thank God!  I'm not the only one.  8)

Offline Aklyon

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2014, 11:00:39 am »
Cyborg, that is a good post in the big mess of this sort of topic. :)

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2014, 11:38:47 am »
Little update in case you are still curious ;)

here updated allegiations
http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2014/09/gamergate-phil-fish-allegedly-outed-in-racketeering-scandal-reddit-mod-speaks-out/

here IGF's (imo PR fluff nonsense) statement regarding the claims, they do not disprove any of the claims.
http://igf.com/2014/09/igf_statement_re_judging_proce.html

Also Interesting, Reddit is shadow-banning TFYC (You can read that in the ellegiations post I link)
TFYC (The fine young capitalist) is promoting games designed by females
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-fine-young-capitalists--2#home

Imo a very good, and worthwhile effort, to bring more female voices into games without it having any sexist undertones.

Ps.: I choose females in 3rd person games for the sole reason that I always play both genders in an rpg (ie, I play every decent RPG at least twice, 1 with each gender) so yeah. ;)

I am absolutely for abolishing sexism... for both men and women alike. If someone fights against sexism with the goal to just reverse the rolls then he or she or it well be fought with everything I have. ;)
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2014, 12:18:34 pm »
RPS's reply on the subject of supposed game media corruption: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/09/08/videogames-are-for-everybody/

In particular, I think this quote is the most appropriate and more matches my feelings on it:

Quote
The accusations for our corruption have focused on a claim that favourable reviews/coverage were written after a writer was alleged to be in a sexual relationship with a developer. Except, no such articles exist, making the claim nonsensical. It has been refuted. Nevertheless, the claim has been stated repeatedly, and with confidence, which seems to be enough to have some people believe it. Despite it not being true. The demands that we address this, and condemnations that we are being “silent” over it, are therefore basically demands to defend ourselves against a crime that hasn’t happened. And that’s it. That is, unfortunately, the basis on which people have called for a boycott of RPS, and urged people to hound our advertisers in order to “destroy” the website.

I'd quote more, but I dislike doing that so go and read the rest of the article, including the Q&A at towards the end. It's long but honest and non-pr-fluff.

Until someone presents hard evidence of games media corruption or unfair bias, I'm going to continue reading what they publish. All I'm reading right now is "could have, possible, maybe shows corruption, MAYBE he COULD have been involved in rackeetering". Cmon guys, that's not enough. We do have actual evidence of corruption in YouTube gaming coverage and yet we, as a gaming community, did very little in response to it. I think it was a big *shrug, so what?* and that is sad.

So, you'll excuse me if I don't go livid over inferences and connections possibly pointing to corruption but not actually showing hard evidence of such. Frankly, what has disgusted me most about these past couple of weeks is the harassment, bigotry and death threats lashed out by people over this. Nothing justifies that behavior. Nothing.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 12:20:40 pm by KingIsaacLinksr »
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2014, 01:37:28 pm »
That RPS article is very good (I am not sure why RPS was on the boycott list btw). But I don't boycott sites in that sense. The only news site I frequent is bluesnews.com and the only sites with link I never click on are Kotaku and Gamasutra ;) And to me these other sites don't even exist.

Btw, to me unfair bias can be easily proven. Look up what sites covered TFYC (google news, search for TFYC - The Fine Young Capitalists). What good reason is there for a site fighting sexism not to post and support this?
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2014, 02:12:23 pm »

Btw, to me unfair bias can be easily proven. Look up what sites covered TFYC (google news, search for TFYC - The Fine Young Capitalists). What good reason is there for a site fighting sexism not to post and support this?

I could speculate and there are some reasonable, non-biased reasons for RPS to not have covered the Indiegogo campaign. But you'd have to ask them yourself on why they didn't. I haven't supported the Indiegogo campaign though, so does that mean I don't fight sexism? No, it doesn't.
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