Author Topic: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged  (Read 20315 times)

Offline Mick

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2014, 07:48:34 am »
The point is that it's the actions of Gamersgate that matters, and not whatever new justification for their cause they decided to come up.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2014, 07:55:48 am »
The point is that it's the actions of Gamersgate that matters, and not whatever new justification for their cause they decided to come up.

Is there a leadership for this?

I can guarantee you any public...gathering...will have a few people who are completely bonkers. For that reasonnothing, absolutely nothing, should be justified in any way involving the lunatics that are in every group.
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Offline Misery

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2014, 08:11:26 am »
You're welcome to consider casual Youtube video watchers and people who make a career out of criticizing and reviewing movies as part of the exact same category "video watchers". You can rationalize this however you want, I however, see a very definite distinction here. It's the same way between Facebook/phone apps vs. AAA games or Indie games made for PC. The quality itself is not even necessarily the most important factor, but also the way the games are played, the major differences in development, production values, competitive aspect, and of course the target audience.

Like I said:  It's all perception.  Movies these days, one way or another will never be anything other than absolute crap to me.  Production values?  Dont care.  If I want high-end visuals, the PC will do that with some game or other.  Movies shouldnt be all about flashy CGI 'splosions to begin with.   Alot of movies people consider to be classics are downright ancient, and dont have any of that sort of thing.  I could get the same CGI splosions offa Youtube.  But it'd be more entertaining than what the movies would give me.

Quality?  Again, perception.  Most AAA games are bottom-barrel to me.  Trash.  While that may not make them actually BAD, as plenty will like them, they're bloody horrid to me. 

The way they're played, too, is another thing of that nature.  An indie dev could, without too much trouble, create a game that plays just like such-and-such AAA game.  Not even close to hard to do;  the only hard part is the graphics.... but there are more indie devs these days that can now manage THAT, too. That one, I can think of plenty of examples of.  In the end, the game will play however in the bloody hell the developer wants it to play. Specific gameplay types are not relegated only to either "casual" or "hardcore". 

Hell, frankly, I dont think most people even agree on... or even know, in some cases... what those two labels MEAN.  Which just proves my point, that they just dont matter.

The idea of iOS VS PC games, for instance, is something that is often thought of as "casual" vs "hardcore". In reality, there's no difference... it's perception, and a lack of research.  People have this bizarre idea that things like Angry Birds are all that are on there.  Can thank the #(%&ing publishers behind those for THAT misconception.  I have an iPad myself.  It exists for gaming, as the handhelds cannot give me the challenge and such that I want (no, seriously.  There's hardly anything on the DS or Vita that'll do that).  What do I play on iOS?  Well the number one thing is the hyper-difficult bullet-hell shmups that I tend to be known for (and it's quite possibly the single greatest platform for these that I've ever seen).  Complicated roguelikes are another one, the really nasty sorts where you die after like half a floor.  Or one of the more "hardcore" type of RPGs out there, the sorts that play like Wizardry (I give the handhelds credit that there ARE at least a couple of THESE on them as well), difficult platformers, retro-style games and compilations of actual retro games.... and so on and so on.  In other words, the exact same sorts of games I have a PC for.  They've always been there, but most people dont look past the end of their noses, and so dont ever, ever find these. The App Store being bloody horrid doesnt help (I never, EVER use that to browse.  It's useless.) but that's another topic altogether.  So this perception gets created, that says that "oh there's only THIS kind of game on here.  None of THIS type or THAT type".  While i have nothing whatsoever against Angry Birds and whatnot (I do play some of those myself, because they're entertaining and in many cases can be harder than they might appear), people lump those together stupidly, declare them to be the only things that exist, and walk away.  Again, perception.  They see the ones that typically get actual advertisements, they see what very, very little the accursed app store bothers to front-page, and they hear others tell them that only a certain type of game exists on there, and the perception that this is true is born.

I could ramble on some more about tablets as a gaming platform, and make some other major counterpoints that go against the usual damn stupid ideas, but you get the point.

Think of Arcen's games here as well.  We're all familar with THOSE, right? Heh.  Those games are the way they are not because they're on PC, but because the devs designed them that way.  If the games were put on console?  On tablets?  They'd be the EXACT same games... just with possible control scheme changes. Which proves, again, that the platform doesnt matter... only the developer's design and style matter at all.  The developer decides what to make, not the platform.  Putting that idea the other way around doesnt even make sense.  Even if people THINK it does.

There's more to say here, but I cannot remember what the rest of it is.  Not that this is a surprise.


Quote
If someone is watching a TV show, Youtube video, anime, movie, cartoon, etc., they are "watching" or "videoing". The distinctions here are hardly relevant, right? In fact, we should just blend all the categories together to make it easier.
    (...did this quote just change WHILE I was typing this?  I looked back at your post and it's now gone.... but I IS QUOTING IT ANYWAY HAHAHA.)

Yep.

Pretty much. 

They're all video-based entertainment.  Every single one of them could be called "stuff that you watch". Which actually IS what I usually call them.  All that matters is your own tastes and preferences, and wether you're enjoying it and getting something out of it or not.... not what type of format it is, or who designed/wrote it, or how much money was used to make all the splosions.


And I really do consider all these damn labels to be irrelevant.  Yeah, I can ramble like crazy about it on here... but partly that's because it's something to do (I have literally nothing but free time, ALL the time...) and because it makes for an interesting debate-ish topic.   Beyond that, in reality I just dont actually care all that much.  I find the games I want, and I play the damn things.  They might be on the PC.  They often are.  They might be on the ancient Atari 2600.  ...and again, they often are. They could be a physical board game for all I care.  All I care about is that they exist and that they give me whatever I happen to want at the time.  Not the format or production values or "Casual VS hardcore" or blah blah blah.  And my actual personal definition of "casual" will always mean "easy", whereas the opposite will always mean "hard" to me, regardless of complexity, thus the ancient 2600 gives me a more hardcore experience than the current consoles currently do, hah.  I kinda wish I was making that up.

All just a matter of perception and taste... nothing more.  And so I just ignore the damn labels and play the games, whatever they are.



There, "rant because I'm bored as heck" is done now. I'll let this topic return to.... what was this about again?  I'm not even sure anymore.  Dont remember what #GamerThing is.

Offline wwwhhattt

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2014, 08:12:56 am »
Is there a leadership for this?

I can guarantee you any public...gathering...will have a few people who are completely bonkers. For that reasonnothing, absolutely nothing, should be justified in any way involving the lunatics that are in every group.
On the plus side there's been a few charity drives, Kotaku and the Escapist changed bits of their ethics policies and a few ads got pulled (because there's no better way to improve journalistic ethics than getting advertisers to determine content).

On the other side two (woman) freelancers quit their jobs to avoid harassment, three (women) had to leave their homes for their own safety (two of them game developers, because... ethics), one talk had to be cancelled in case of a mass shooting, and there's been a load of personal information spread across the web.

In Gamergate the lunatics seem to have the upper hand. Surely nothing should be justified by pointing to the more reasonable participants?

Offline x4000

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2014, 08:44:51 am »
1. Two (woman) freelancers quit their jobs to avoid harassment

2. three (women) had to leave their homes for their own safety (two of them game developers, because... ethics)

3. one talk had to be cancelled in case of a mass shooting, and there's been a load of personal information spread across the web.

Whoa, what?  Anyone have any links?
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2014, 08:57:55 am »

On the other side two (woman) freelancers quit their jobs to avoid harassment, three (women) had to leave their homes for their own safety (two of them game developers, because... ethics), one talk had to be cancelled in case of a mass shooting, and there's been a load of personal information spread across the web.

In Gamergate the lunatics seem to have the upper hand. Surely nothing should be justified by pointing to the more reasonable participants?

In my experience lunatics are just looking for an axe to grind and will use whatever seems to get their attention. In other words did the movement actually cause them to do these things when they have otherwise for another cause? I have also heard reports of the contrary, that these "threats" were imaginary and had no basis. In general, I hear lots of claims but no verifiable facts.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2014, 09:30:35 am »
There's no evidence that the people who threatened these women were in any way connected to the #Gamergate movement. In fact there's a lot of evidence that the supposed "death threats" against several of the "victims" such as Anita Sarkeesian, were faked, by her, in order to raise money for her own personal expenses (aka, defrauding gullible people). The fact that she continues to publicly post copies of her death threats is evidence either that she's doing it for attention (aka to receive money), or that she's a complete idiot, inviting even more death threats by making them public. It's tactics like these, by the Feminists critical of the gaming community, and by the dishonest journalists defending them, which are the exact reason the whole movement even exists.

Meanwhile, another supposed "victim" of the Gamergate movement, Zoe Quinn, intentionally sabotaged a charity event labeled 'The Fine Young Capitalists’ Game Jam', which was created to assist five women game developers in creating video games to raise money for charity. She effectively completely shut down the charity, featured on IndieGogo, by making false accusations and baseless claims about them. For a person who was supposedly attacked because she was a female video game designer, one must seriously call into question the validity of any of her claims.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 10:57:40 am by Wingflier »
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2014, 11:25:18 am »
1. Two (woman) freelancers quit their jobs to avoid harassment

2. three (women) had to leave their homes for their own safety (two of them game developers, because... ethics)

3. one talk had to be cancelled in case of a mass shooting, and there's been a load of personal information spread across the web.

Whoa, what?  Anyone have any links?

1) & 2) http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/138012-Brianna-Wu-talks-GamerGate-on-MSNBC-The-Reid-Report

3) http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/14/6978809/utah-state-university-receives-shooting-threat-for-anita-sarkeesian-visit That one is incredibly iffy and tbh, the whole story leaves a lot of questions in my mind. I don't think there was a credible threat against her life and her announcing it seemed like an attention-grabbing move. A move that is not unlike her. The other reason I think its iffy, is that she specifically points to the College's gun policy as being the reason why. It felt like a political move on her part. People who are known on the Internet get a lot of death threats. Why this one, out of ALL of them that she was doubtless receiving, caused her to cancel...I have no idea why. She doesn't strike me as the type of person to not have the courage and stand up on stage regardless of a threat.

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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2014, 12:53:17 pm »
Sorry but I don't consider someone playing Farmville or Candy Crush on the iphone as a "gamer", even in the loosest sense of the word. And it's not because I'm a purist either.
I also think there's a major difference between Youtube videos and professionally made movies as well. The production values, target audience, skills of the director/actor, crew is on a completely different level. Technically speaking, both movies and YT are "videos". So one could compare the two groups of people these attract and put them into the same category. However, I certainly wouldn't place an avid Youtube video watcher in the same category as a movie connoisseur, or somebody who devotes their professional career to watching and rating professionally made films.

In the same way, comparing the group of people who play Facebook or phone apps to the people who play fully fledged and professionally created games is comparing two different categories of people. When we say "gamer", it has a very different connotation than "Farmville player". In the same way that "movie connoisseur" has a different connotation than "Youtube video watcher". To me, such distinctions are quite obvious, especially considering the fact that the whole Gamergate discussion about dishonesty in gaming journalism is not, in any way, referring to the Farmville or Kim Kardashian Big Booty 2015 style games.

Here's the difference between big movies and YouTube videos: MONEY.

Here's the difference between Facebook/Indie games & AAA Games: MONEY.

If you can honestly look me in the face and say that movies like Transformers: Age of Extinction is made by people better skilled than those on the YouTube, I will eat my own socks. I'm sure I could make a comparison in the gaming scene. There are some incredibly talented people that work on YouTube/InternetVideo scene and come up with creative and entertaining stuff that Transformers 4 WISHES it could be. Just as it is with Arcen Games and the products they make. Some work on a small level because they prefer it over the big studios. Some, not all. Same goes for the TV scene. So what if a YouTube video was made with a budget less than 1 million? Does that make it less of a movie? No, it doesn't.

"When we say gamer": I consider anyone a gamer who plays "any of various interactive games played using a specialized electronic gaming device or a computer or mobile device and a television or other display screen, along with a means to control graphic images." That is a direct definition from Dictionary.com. Just because YOU don't LIKE what they are playing, doesn't make them any less of a gamer, and to split this community apart over such a silly thing as "connotation" is the same nonsense that we gamers ran away from jocks/other groups in the first place for. The only reason you create the labeling difference, as it seems to me, is to have a superiority complex over others. That what you play is somehow more valuable than Candy Crush Saga players. Which, on a side note, Candy Crush Saga is basically Bejeweled in a different form. So, by saying that Candy Crush isn't a game, you're ostensibly saying that most puzzle games including Tidalis aren't games. You prepared to argue that?

Do Facebook games have generally terrible business models? In my opinion, yes they do. Are they sometimes badly designed games? Yeah. Do I wish people wouldn't play them? Yes, I do. But they ARE STILL GAMES. And the ones who play them are still gamers.  Just because those same people don't play the same genres as you doesn't make them any less of a gamer. They simply have a different interest than you.

If you want to label everything to get a superiority complex, go right ahead. But this need to label people as "movie connoisseur", "YouTube video watcher", "Farmville player", casual, hardcore, iOSer, consoler, PCMASTERRACE is the kind of holier-than-thou nonsense I wish would stop. It doesn't add anything meaningful to any industry and does far more damage than anything else. This need to put people in a box is done for few good reasons.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 01:14:11 pm by KingIsaacLinksr »
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Offline wwwhhattt

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2014, 01:04:25 pm »
There's no evidence that the people who threatened these women were in any way connected to the #Gamergate movement. In fact there's a lot of evidence that the supposed "death threats" against several of the "victims" such as Anita Sarkeesian, were faked, by her, in order to raise money for her own personal expenses (aka, defrauding gullible people).
6 days after that article the SFPD say they passed the report Sarkeesian had filed on to the FBI Although the SFPD spokesman "did not further clarify why his original statement contradicted that information." The Escapist also got confirmation that the report had been passed on.

Meanwhile, another supposed "victim" of the Gamergate movement, Zoe Quinn, intentionally sabotaged a charity event labeled 'The Fine Young Capitalists’ Game Jam', which was created to assist five women game developers in creating video games to raise money for charity.
The Fine Young Capitalists didn't think so.

She effectively completely shut down the charity, featured on IndieGogo, by making false accusations and baseless claims about them.
Might be misreading you, but TFYC aren't a charity, but they are giving 73.8% of their profits to charity. And far from being destroyed, they're still going.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 01:28:44 pm by wwwhhattt »

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2014, 02:00:11 pm »
I am going to be slightly off-topic, but since you guys derailed my topic.. I can do that ;)

To be honest I am getting really radically negative about feminism nowadays, I absolutely HATE, nay DETEST people that tell other people what they should think or wear or how they should style their hair or clothing. Or live their life, for that matter. I may argue with you and I may call you things, but I will never tell you how to live your life. That's your own problem and you can bet I am very happy that that is not my problem ;p However, my acceptance of your existence stops the moment you think you can not just TELL me how to live me my life, but try to FORCE me to live my life how you want.

And on comes my point...

I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist and ostracizing
http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/13/7213819/your-bowling-shirt-is-holding-back-progress

And all I have left is rage. Rage at that typus of feminists. That screams bloody murder at everything without sense or point. They are like rabid dogs left of the leash, inhuman in their argumentation and blinded by their own ideology. You know what? I am SICK of people telling other people what they should think or wear. What right has that writer to tell another human being how to dress? I mean what the actual hell is wrong with feminists lately anyways? Ooooh, that shirt is insulting for you? Well "Deal with it"

And GamerGate related.. I am sorry, though I started this topic it was about a rumor that the IGF 2014 was rigged, which by all accounts that are findable, it was and wasn't things were fishy but nothing can be proven.  But GG was always a temper tantrum without guidance, and the more it became radicalized the more it become yet another shit-storm. Without point. To me Gamergate is nothing but a tantrum with zero relevance.

But in all that, people like that Verge writer ended up thinking they have the right to tell other people how to dress.

(The joke is, the shirt was designed by a women, based on a sci-fi story) So seeing that he wore that made me happy, because I know the story, I have the book.... it's very dark and brutal sci-fi and the dude is a rock fan with bunch of tatoons so to me this resonates, he was happy to wear that and seeing him nearly in tears today in the ESA google hangout made me insanely angry.

It's honestly confusing to me, I don't understand what makes these people think they have the right to tell another person what to wear. Especially when it was a gift from a good friends wife. That she made herself, that she was proud of. That she was happy he wore.

I mean, how much of an insane feminist do you need to be to even WRITE something like this let alone ARGUE for it->
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/we-should-stop-putting-women-in-jail-for-anything/

I don't get it. To me this movement is like any other radical religious terrorist ideology. "We dictate how you should live your life and if you don't agree we will harass you until you submit" Yay! And that I am supposed to support? Hah! :)

Maybe it's because I was just unlucky to find these 2 links and stories in quick succession, and both stuck in my mind.. Because they made clear to me that feminism in the "3rd generation variation" is not an ideology that will ever accept. I will go exactly as far as "gender equalization, equal pay, equal job chance" and not single step further.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 02:06:07 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2014, 02:05:21 pm »
It is very interesting to compare the following categories:

1) Those asking for toleration.
2) Those being tolerant.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2014, 02:42:10 pm »
It is very interesting to compare the following categories:

1) Those asking for toleration.
2) Those being tolerant.

And while comparing them, one might throw in that tolerance of oppression lead the Darcsens to concentration camps and slavery.

Valkyrie Chronicles, if you haven't yet, watch anime or play it ;)
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Offline Mick

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2014, 02:46:18 pm »
It is very interesting to compare the following categories:

1) Those asking for toleration.
2) Those being tolerant.

And while comparing them, one might throw in that tolerance of oppression lead the Darcsens to concentration camps and slavery.

Valkyrie Chronicles, if you haven't yet, watch anime or play it ;)

That was just released on the PC like three days ago, hold back on the spoilers please.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: So.. Independent Games Festival 2014 was rigged
« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2014, 02:53:34 pm »
It is very interesting to compare the following categories:

1) Those asking for toleration.
2) Those being tolerant.

And while comparing them, one might throw in that tolerance of oppression lead the Darcsens to concentration camps and slavery.

Valkyrie Chronicles, if you haven't yet, watch anime or play it ;)

That was just released on the PC like three days ago, hold back on the spoilers please.

I promise that vague hint will be the only reference about the game story I drop ;) I hope it made you curious to find out more though. The game has an exceptional story, since it mirrors the Anime nearly 1:1

Since the Anime is one of my absolute favorites It's hard to tell what exactly is spoiler or not, I don't have the game on PC ;)
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