Author Topic: SMITE  (Read 4955 times)

Offline zespri

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2014, 03:21:22 am »
Can you explain to someone who is as far from dota/moba/etc as one could be, why the last hit is a thing? I mean why would a developer choose to award stuff based on last hit? That does not make sense...

Because it means you can't just mindlessly be smacking down minions all the time. You have to time your shots and plan ahead. Smite doesn't have them because they are trying to be a bit more casual than LOL or DOTA, but LOL and DOTA have them because it ups the skill requirement necessary to really succeed.
Sorry, I don't understand that - just don't have necessary experience to -  is this due to that minons are less dangerous than... uhm... non-minions? Than surely it can be weighted somehow?

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2014, 11:19:49 am »
Can you explain to someone who is as far from dota/moba/etc as one could be, why the last hit is a thing? I mean why would a developer choose to award stuff based on last hit? That does not make sense...

Because it means you can't just mindlessly be smacking down minions all the time. You have to time your shots and plan ahead. Smite doesn't have them because they are trying to be a bit more casual than LOL or DOTA, but LOL and DOTA have them because it ups the skill requirement necessary to really succeed.
Sorry, I don't understand that - just don't have necessary experience to -  is this due to that minons are less dangerous than... uhm... non-minions? Than surely it can be weighted somehow?

Minions give experience and gold. DOTA does last hits to add strategy to their game. Because DOTA's heroes have widely different auto-attack power and animations, you have to time your attacks correctly in order to farm the most experience and gold possible. This means that if you're not on top of your farm, you fall behind in levels and items.  It's supposed to make the game more challenging and strategic. Whether you actually find that to be fun, well, is personal preference.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 02:31:20 pm by KingIsaacLinksr »
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Offline Riabi

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2014, 02:17:39 pm »

Minions give experience and gold. DOTA does last hits to add strategy to their game. Because DOTA's heroes have widely different auto-attack power and animations, you have to time your attacks correctly in order to farm the most experience and gold possible. This means that if you're not on top of your farm, you fall behind in levels and items.  It's supposed to make the game more challenging and strategic. Whether you actually find that to be the case, well, is personal preference.

I agree that it makes the game both more challenging and more strategic. My argument against the idea is that for me, it makes the game less enjoyable/fun.

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2014, 02:31:59 pm »

Minions give experience and gold. DOTA does last hits to add strategy to their game. Because DOTA's heroes have widely different auto-attack power and animations, you have to time your attacks correctly in order to farm the most experience and gold possible. This means that if you're not on top of your farm, you fall behind in levels and items.  It's supposed to make the game more challenging and strategic. Whether you actually find that to be the case fun, well, is personal preference.

I agree that it makes the game both more challenging and more strategic. My argument against the idea is that for me, it makes the game less enjoyable/fun.

Fixed to what I meant to say.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2014, 05:22:58 pm »

Minions give experience and gold. DOTA does last hits to add strategy to their game. Because DOTA's heroes have widely different auto-attack power and animations, you have to time your attacks correctly in order to farm the most experience and gold possible. This means that if you're not on top of your farm, you fall behind in levels and items.  It's supposed to make the game more challenging and strategic. Whether you actually find that to be the case, well, is personal preference.

I agree that it makes the game both more challenging and more strategic. My argument against the idea is that for me, it makes the game less enjoyable/fun.
It just comes with the territory really. If you don't like last hitting, you won't like DotA, as it's the primary form of economy for the game. Yes, it's a bit silly, but to this day I haven't seen a much better alternative. Even the second generation MOBAs that have been released still include last hitting as a mechanic, even if it's diminished in importance. It's still a critical mechanic to the game, nobody has found a way around it.

Blizzard's Heroes of the Storm is removing it, but we'll see how that turns out. I think the game will sacrifice a lot of depth, as have many of the other MOBAs, in order to make this highly annoying mechanic less important.
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Offline Riabi

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2014, 05:27:49 pm »
Blizzard's Heroes of the Storm is removing it, but we'll see how that turns out. I think the game will sacrifice a lot of depth, as have many of the other MOBAs, in order to make this highly annoying mechanic less important.

My guess is that since it's going to be F2P, they will be more than willing to sacrifice depth for accessibility. Much like they did with hearthstone.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2014, 07:07:59 pm »
That seems to be blizzard's namesake nowadays. Though to be fair SC2 is still an extremely complex game. Even if most of its complexity comes from clicking fast and pressing buttons.
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Offline Riabi

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2014, 08:24:00 am »
That seems to be blizzard's namesake nowadays. Though to be fair SC2 is still an extremely complex game. Even if most of its complexity comes from clicking fast and pressing buttons.

True, but, do you think SC2 would sell if it weren't complex?

Offline Coppermantis

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2014, 10:53:36 am »
That seems to be blizzard's namesake nowadays. Though to be fair SC2 is still an extremely complex game. Even if most of its complexity comes from clicking fast and pressing buttons.

True, but, do you think SC2 would sell if it weren't complex?
Probably not for the $100 it costs to get the whole package. If it were F2P like HotS (...) then maybe, but I don't see how that could happen short of flat-out removing units or abilities. Its mechanics aren't that complicated, to be honest. Most of the difficulty is action and reaction time.

Which don't matter all that much at lower leagues anyway.
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2014, 01:39:20 pm »
HotS isn't free, HotS is! :P

Offline Misery

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2014, 07:35:36 pm »
It just comes with the territory really. If you don't like last hitting, you won't like DotA, as it's the primary form of economy for the game. Yes, it's a bit silly, but to this day I haven't seen a much better alternative. Even the second generation MOBAs that have been released still include last hitting as a mechanic, even if it's diminished in importance. It's still a critical mechanic to the game, nobody has found a way around it.

Sadly, this is true.  It's one of the reasons why I dropped Dota myself, as that game is by far the most obsessed with this particular detail (which I loathe).   I dont mind it as much in LoL or some of the others, being that I can actually use skills/spells to do it (thus popping many minions/whatever at once and also making it less boring), as well as being encouraged to keep up a constant back and forth fight going with my opponent during the laning phase.  Not to mention that the timing is less strict in those.  And yeah, I know some players would say "Well that just lowers the skill needed, it's stupid that you play those", but I play alot of games that need MUCH more strict timing than Dota ever uses (fighting games, and of course the shmups I'm known for), so it's not a matter of that... I just find the strictness of it really annoying, not really difficult, particularly considering how slow the laning phase is in that game.

That being said, there really ARE ways around it, though of course nobody has COMPLETELY done away with it yet (bah).  The one that's done it the best so far is Dawngate.  I never, ever play carries in any moba (because of the last-hitting obsession), and as long as that's the case in that game, I never have to give a fart about last-hitting.  I still have to concern myself with the minions, as they will of course be used to try to overpower my lane and get to the tower, but I dont have to worry about getting the killing blow on them ever.  With the roles that I usually choose (which includes support) I get most of my gold from sheer harassment, which is MUCH more interesting.  Aggressive, risky play earns me the gold I need.  If my lane partner is around at the time, I just ignore the minions entirely; if he's not, I'll just throw an occasional spell at them to weaken the group and keep things going there, but wether it kills them directly or not doesnt matter.   

And of course, Smite here honestly seems to do it pretty well also.  In my time with the game (though I havent played in awhile) I never really found myself getting irritated with that aspect like I do in the other games, so that's a point in Smite's favor.

Also liking Strife's unique way of toning it down as well, though I still need a bunch more time with that game before I can really get a feel for exactly how all of it's bits are working together, but so far the impressions are very favorable.


And I am interested indeed to see how Blizzard's moba comes out.  From what I'd seen of it it looked a little TOO dumbed down, but I've learned never to underestimate Blizzard as a whole.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 07:37:52 pm by Misery »

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2014, 09:03:17 pm »
Yeah, I definitely prefer SMITE's handling of it. It's a nice bonus to have and for a few gods like Xbalanque quite necessary to get kills, but overall its more important for the team to get kills than individual gods. It means a whole lot less crying in chat about killstealing, I'll say that much. (Not completely, but, mostly).
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Offline Coppermantis

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2014, 04:46:45 am »

That being said, there really ARE ways around it, though of course nobody has COMPLETELY done away with it yet (bah).  The one that's done it the best so far is Dawngate.  I never, ever play carries in any moba (because of the last-hitting obsession), and as long as that's the case in that game, I never have to give a fart about last-hitting.  I still have to concern myself with the minions, as they will of course be used to try to overpower my lane and get to the tower, but I dont have to worry about getting the killing blow on them ever.  With the roles that I usually choose (which includes support) I get most of my gold from sheer harassment, which is MUCH more interesting.  Aggressive, risky play earns me the gold I need.  If my lane partner is around at the time, I just ignore the minions entirely; if he's not, I'll just throw an occasional spell at them to weaken the group and keep things going there, but wether it kills them directly or not doesnt matter.   

I'm agreeing on this. Dawngate is the only MOBA that's interested me in quite a while, 'cause that sounds really interesting, and more fun. That each character is more flexible and able to fulfill multiple roles, due to (as far as I've seen, I haven't played it yet) different characteristics based on the role, not solely the hero chosen is nice, and it helps avoid the fairly monotonous economy of games like DOTA. I never really enjoyed having to just farm waves of creeps in order to get the stuff I need to actually fight the main bad guys. At least in Starcraft II, the economy system involves more interesting harassment, and you are maneuvering an army at the same time, so there isn't just "wait for it....attack creep...repeat." (Obviously, that's a simplification, but it's still generally what you're going to be doing in comparison to the more intricate economies of Starcraft.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2014, 08:40:00 am »
For the record; Smite DOES have lasthitting. Though it's severely diminished compared to say DOTA2 where it's required. In Smite a last hit on a minion will grant a minor gold bonus (no XP bonus), and a last hit on an enemy god will grant you the bonus gold for a kill (including XP bonus). Assists give the same bonus but at 50%.
 
The only time last hits are vital are when you are playing a stacking build, where you have items that build power with stacks, and stacks are gained by killing minions or gods. Usually you are either alone in your lane (so you always get those last hits yourself simply by clearing, which you do with abilities, rarely with basic attacks) or your lane-mate is simply supporting you and will not attempt to clear the lane, but instead help you damage the minions so you can clear them, and keep the opponents at bay.
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Offline Misery

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Re: SMITE
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2014, 08:46:07 pm »
I'm agreeing on this. Dawngate is the only MOBA that's interested me in quite a while, 'cause that sounds really interesting, and more fun. That each character is more flexible and able to fulfill multiple roles, due to (as far as I've seen, I haven't played it yet) different characteristics based on the role, not solely the hero chosen is nice, and it helps avoid the fairly monotonous economy of games like DOTA. I never really enjoyed having to just farm waves of creeps in order to get the stuff I need to actually fight the main bad guys. At least in Starcraft II, the economy system involves more interesting harassment, and you are maneuvering an army at the same time, so there isn't just "wait for it....attack creep...repeat." (Obviously, that's a simplification, but it's still generally what you're going to be doing in comparison to the more intricate economies of Starcraft.

Oh yeah, it's pretty darn good so far.

Even as a support character, which is still my main role (because saving my teammates from their own mistakes entertains me), the stuff I can do is really increased in this one.   Aside from the last-hitting system, the item system (which is like this funky "evolving items" tree... hard to explain, but definitely different than the "crafting" seen in some others) is very well done also and offers alot of flexibility.

The dual-lane setup is nice as well, not the most super-important change ever, but it simply creates a different feel from other games, particularly considering everything else that's in the map, like the Spirit Wells, which are themselves also interesting.  I've still only played so much of it myself (partly because of the damn mouse wrecking my arm at times) but I've found that there's alot of needing to move around the map, rather than staying in one lane too long as can happen sometimes in this genre.


Though, I would also suggest looking up Strife if you havent seen it yet.  Wingflier got me interested in it with his descriptions of it in the big moba topic, and pretty much everything he'd said about it was spot-on.  It's looking brilliant so far, I really like the direction they are taking with that one.

As it is, I still have 2 additional keys for the game (it's in closed beta), if you should look at it and want to try it out, just lemme know.   It's certainly worth at least looking it up though, I think.