Author Topic: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)  (Read 19828 times)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2013, 02:14:10 pm »
I don't really have any issue with the concept of microtransactions. You want to offer me a skin or a hat for some money, whatever. What I have an issue with is pay-to-win.

It really depends on the game though, I don't agree that every game that has a pay-to-win option is ruined by it. In some cases, the option is more  pay-to-cheat, or pay-to-not-have-to-bother-playing, which simply amuses me. If I have fun playing a game, I want to play it, so why would I spend extra money so I don't have to play the game as much, or can bypass playing it altogether? If I find a game to be grindy and unfun, I simply delete it.

This. If the game is playable, fair, and preferably competitive without microtransactions, fine. For a good example, take a look at some of Zynga's stuff. Yes, you can pay to get a "leg-up" but very good options are available for those who don't pay and are sufficiently skilled, but it may take a bit longer. That is microtransactions done right in my eyes.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2013, 04:14:51 pm »
Zynga's games also pull the crap with energy systems, which I really don't like. Any one of those games that essentially locks you out of playing it for hours because you didn't pay for it is absurd. It's worse with the older games than it is now, but there's stuff like "Oh hey, this building takes 20 hours to build" or "whoops, you need 40 energy to start this mission, and you only have 4. Looks like you'll have to wait 5 minutes per point of energy before you can go on." Those games are practically pay to play, because you can only ever play them for 20 or so minutes in a given day before waiting the time it takes for the game to let you play it again.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2013, 04:18:39 pm »
Zynga's games also pull the crap with energy systems, which I really don't like. Any one of those games that essentially locks you out of playing it for hours because you didn't pay for it is absurd. It's worse with the older games than it is now, but there's stuff like "Oh hey, this building takes 20 hours to build" or "whoops, you need 40 energy to start this mission, and you only have 4. Looks like you'll have to wait 5 minutes per point of energy before you can go on." Those games are practically pay to play, because you can only ever play them for 20 or so minutes in a given day before waiting the time it takes for the game to let you play it again.

Yea, that was annoying, I'll give you that. But then again, you can still enjoy all the content, if you are willing to wait.
Plus, those games were balanced around having a limit to the rate of actions. Paying allows one to temporally act as if you had a higher limit.

EDIT: And most importantly, those limits and "recharge rates" when not paying were at fair values.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 04:58:40 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2013, 04:40:39 pm »
Sometimes the energy-system delays are also used to increase the chance you would end each session thinking "I want to play more" rather than "Ok, that's enough, I'm done".

Sometimes that's valid (to a point), and sometimes it's just to obscure the fundamental lack of continually-compelling gameplay.
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2013, 05:22:46 pm »
So like, it's basically there to encourage you to come back later because the game always leaves you waiting for more.
Really all it was to me was annoying. I used to play these games, and the moment I had spent money on better games that didn't do this, I stopped touching Zynga products and moved on. I get the feeling that isn't what they were going for. I kind of prefer to define my own times to play games, you know? I really don't like when the game declares that my session is over, or when the game says "You can't play for x time because building is under construction." I never exactly dove into arcade games either, for that very reason.

Yet, there is a game where I DO like the energy system. Spiral Knights lets you buy energy with in-game currency. If you're good enough to make enough money, then you can actually buy back more energy to play more levels or wait for energy to recharge. I really prefer the systems where the players can exchange in-game money for something that you'd normally buy with real money. Partly, I mean, it doesn't really hurt the company too badly because someone has to buy that in the first place. Someone else bought the energy that you were looking to buy. It gets into the economy and leaves the economy in such a way that someone out there is spending money on it and letting the players who play the game for real actually play it for real more often. And yet, in Spiral Knights, you can't spend your way to success because buying anything remotely advanced requires a lot of farmable materials... and then you need to level up your gear by using it in levels. So, early players can't shortcut to the endgame by buying tons of energy to buy in-game cash.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2013, 01:44:32 pm »
Quote from: Billick
It's kind of a shame, since it sounds like Maxis actually made a pretty good game, but the suits at EA forced them to shoehorn in a multiplayer mode that nobody wanted as a lame excuse to require being connected to their servers.  I used to like EA, but they seem to get worse and worse every year as they find they can get away with more.  Maybe this will be a wake up call for them.
This is actually false.  A person on Twitter made the same statement, blaming EA for the decision and someone at Maxis replied and stated that the decision to go full, always online multiplayer was Maxis decision and Maxis alone. EA had nothing to do with it.

Imagine my surprise.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2013, 01:45:32 pm »
My big bone with Simcity these days is that it's inherently broken. The more people I talk to, the more I realize that the underlying simulation is just broken to the core. Things do not work as you'd expect them to, and you'll sometimes end up with over 90% of your workforce not working...because...who knows?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 02:47:27 pm by Moonshine Fox »
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2013, 01:46:17 pm »
Quote from: Billick
It's kind of a shame, since it sounds like Maxis actually made a pretty good game, but the suits at EA forced them to shoehorn in a multiplayer mode that nobody wanted as a lame excuse to require being connected to their servers.  I used to like EA, but they seem to get worse and worse every year as they find they can get away with more.  Maybe this will be a wake up call for them.
This is actually false.  A person on Twitter made the same statement, blaming EA for the decision and someone at Maxis replied and stated that the decision to go full, always online multiplayer was Maxis decision and Maxis alone. EA had nothing to do with it.

Imagine my surprise.

After hearing that Maxis was behind Spore, I can believe that now. Tragic that they think this is the right way to go...
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2013, 01:56:35 pm »
My big bone with Simcity these days is that it's inherently broken. The more people I talk to, the more I realize that the underlying simulation is just broken to the core. Things do not work as you'd expect them to, and you'll sometimes end up with over 90% of your workforce not working...because...hug knows.

Yea, after some kind of offline mode is added (or at the very least, connect once on startup and then able to go offline from there), this is the second thing I will be waiting for. Some of the game-breaking bugs to be fixed.

SimCity 4 was pretty buggy on release too, so I am not surprised there are some big bugs here as well, especially now that they have moved to a very different simulation model.

Offline Billick

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2013, 03:06:10 pm »
Quote from: Billick
It's kind of a shame, since it sounds like Maxis actually made a pretty good game, but the suits at EA forced them to shoehorn in a multiplayer mode that nobody wanted as a lame excuse to require being connected to their servers.  I used to like EA, but they seem to get worse and worse every year as they find they can get away with more.  Maybe this will be a wake up call for them.
This is actually false.  A person on Twitter made the same statement, blaming EA for the decision and someone at Maxis replied and stated that the decision to go full, always online multiplayer was Maxis decision and Maxis alone. EA had nothing to do with it.

Imagine my surprise.
I... don't believe that for a second.  I think I'm just going to skip this game completely.  If I get an itch to play a SimCity game I'll get Sim City 4, or Sim City 2000, or better yet I'll just give more money to Toady.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2013, 03:48:50 pm »
I... don't believe that for a second.
Remember: there can always be more than one thing wrong :)

Just because EA is often incompetent and generally messing things up like this, doesn't mean Maxis is incapable of doing the same.


That said, I think it's more than 50% likely that the Maxis statement that they made the always-online decision is at least misleading and possibly an outright lie.  Wouldn't be the first time a publisher forced a developer to accept a certain decision and then later forced that developer to publicly accept responsibility for that decision.  And I totally don't put that past EA.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2013, 04:48:52 pm »
Possibly, the Maxis guys were the ones responsible for multiplayer mode and mandatory participation (or at least, one must be influenced by) in the "global market/economy" ideas, which are actually nifty ideas (except for that mandatory part).
Then EA took that, "extrapolated it", and then used that as an excuse to shove "always online" back down Maxis' throats.

Of course, just a wild guess. It is more of an example about how it can be very tricky to figure out who is to blame, and what parts of the problem each party is responsible for.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 05:09:34 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2013, 05:30:17 pm »
The plot thickens. SimCity 2013 may be playable offline and EA may be downright lying. Ohhhhh boy...

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/03/12/simcity-server-not-necessary/

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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2013, 05:57:09 pm »
The plot thickens. SimCity 2013 may be playable offline and EA may be downright lying. Ohhhhh boy...

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/03/12/simcity-server-not-necessary/
Jumping Jehoshaphat.

If that's accurate, this deception was a really stupid move on EA/Maxis's part.  Did they honestly think someone wouldn't set up the necessary tests and hacking to figure out this was what was going on?  The fact that an insider stepped up just shortened the process, albeit adding additional drama to the situation.

I was prepared to let this whole thing go (while not buying the game) as another mistaken design decision (the always-online thing), but now I'm prepared to upgrade EA's position on the crap-list to... wait, I think they're already at the top, since Ubisoft started backing down on the always-online stuff.

Repeatedly lying on international news about the core issue of a controversy with customers... wow.

I often disagree with Mr. Walker, but now it's time to get him some kind of mech so he can go get some answers from EA and Maxis, the hard way.

I didn't think the Sim City release would be much more than a speedbump to it, but this could leave a lasting mark on whether companies are willing to go the always-online route in the future.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: SimCity 2013 (or SimCity 5)
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2013, 06:06:00 pm »
Yeah. If this is true, I can't believe EA lied to so many people to pull off this deception. Its one thing to be an obstinate blockhead. Its another to lie to everyone like this and repeatedly do so. I'm going to be watching this very closely.
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