Scrolls, new game from Mojang (the Minecraft guys)

[BobTheJanitor]

Website's here: http://www.scrolls.com/

I'm kind of expecting this to flop. Virtual collectible card game board game hybrid thing. I would be interested a bit except apparently they're going with the traditional CCG model of starter card sets and purchased booster packs. So micro-payments for virtual cards. I could justify the cards back in the days (eons ago) when I played Magic, because they were at least collectible and tended to appreciate in value. But virtual cards? I don't foresee this taking off. I was kind of hoping for something more interesting for Mojang's second game. Can anyone think of a reason why this wouldn't fail out of the gate?

[Ozymandiaz]

Minecraft was all new and exciting, something not done before. This has to compete with MTG directly, since MTG has some online stuff already.

Its hard competition, not sure this would be my first choice for a second game. While I am sure it could be interesting I am not interested to pay micro transactions for an online card game. I rather blow the dust off my very old MTG cards and play a round or two with a friend

That said, they do promise new elements, and it might be something cool to play. And even AI War had strong competition form other games and it turned out fantastic. My biggest beef is micro transactions, it is evil

[Panopticon]

From the way I saw it explained, there are several ways to unlock two different classes of cards.

One class gets unlocked from playing the singleplayer campaign. The other class gets unlocked with in-game currency that can be purchased via microtransaction or won by playing the multiplayer side of the game. Also, there will be in-game card trading. So it seems like what they have done is provide players with many options on how to acquire cards, and all cards can be acquired by playing both the online and offline components of the game. You won't be able to purchase all of the cards by just dropping cash on a bunch of booster packs, which will keep people with deep pockets from buying their way to an advantage (or at least more deck building options). Those of us who prefer to earn all their stuff through achieving things by playing the game will have that. People who don't have time, but do have money and want to be competitive in multiplayer without having to invest in the time sink have that option too. It sounds like a very inclusive model that doesn't shut anyone out and encourages community interaction. That all sounds like good stuff to me. I just hope it's built on top of a compelling game.

[Ozymandiaz]

We shall see.

My biggest beef with MTG was actually that you could just buy a good deck online. Me and a few friends used to play a lot years ago, and some of the fun were making a deck based on random cards you got form a booster or two. Kind of make do with what you got and kick your opponents ass as best you can and have some fun. Some challenge to jog the brain a bit, and some social fun. Good times.

One of my friends started buying cards online, and eventually he won every time. That got very boring, and to stay competitive I would need to do the same thing. And I did not. So I stopped playing after a while and found other things to do. One could always do a tournament, but that costs a lot in the long run and just leaves you with a ton of cardboard in the closet.

Actually now that I think about it my cards have been in the closet for over 10 years now. They might actually be worth something if I bothered to put em up for sale

If Scrolls do away with the "but your way to win" thing it might be worth looking at, but I am still a firm believer of all players being equal in a game for it to actually be any fun in the long run. Then you rely on yourself to win, bot external money. And tbh a micro transaction scheme is just a shoddy way of milking players for more money. I eventually realized that with MTG as well.  That I was paying for pieces of cardboard printouts to play with. While the game was fun, objectively looking at it it is a huge money sink.

[Panopticon]

Don't take my word for it.

On a broader level, the game is about acquiring those cards: players can buy packs of randomly selected cards for real money, or earn them for free by playing the single player campaign against the AI. Some cards can only be bought, others can only be earned, but all can be traded on the auction house for in-game currency.

That's from this PC Gamer article.

It's a good read. Here's some more to dispel any ideas that it's just a magic clone with an online store to suck away money.

You play Scrolls online against other players, or offline in a campaign mode. Each player chooses a selection of scrolls, representing creatures, spells and structures under their control, and chooses where to place them on a game board.

“The board is divided so that you control one side each.” says Jakob. “As your units attack, they charge across your opponent’s side of the board and will damage him unless blocked. As every unit comes with a variety of different abilities, it’s not as simple as just placing your units in front of your opponent’s to feel safe. You will need to pay close attention to the positioning of you opponents units, siege weapons and building and adjust your strategy according to that.”

 It sounds like a lot of strategy and tactics are involved beyond deck building. Seems like they want unit selections and placement to play a big part (the boardgame aspect). I like the sound of that, layers of strategy and tactics can come together to create fun emergent gameplay situations.

[Echo35]

Don't take my word for it.

On a broader level, the game is about acquiring those cards: players can buy packs of randomly selected cards for real money, or earn them for free by playing the single player campaign against the AI. Some cards can only be bought, others can only be earned, but all can be traded on the auction house for in-game currency.

That's from this PC Gamer article.

It's a good read. Here's some more to dispel any ideas that it's just a magic clone with an online store to suck away money.

You play Scrolls online against other players, or offline in a campaign mode. Each player chooses a selection of scrolls, representing creatures, spells and structures under their control, and chooses where to place them on a game board.

“The board is divided so that you control one side each.” says Jakob. “As your units attack, they charge across your opponent’s side of the board and will damage him unless blocked. As every unit comes with a variety of different abilities, it’s not as simple as just placing your units in front of your opponent’s to feel safe. You will need to pay close attention to the positioning of you opponents units, siege weapons and building and adjust your strategy according to that.”

 It sounds like a lot of strategy and tactics are involved beyond deck building. Seems like they want unit selections and placement to play a big part (the boardgame aspect). I like the sound of that, layers of strategy and tactics can come together to create fun emergent gameplay situations.

Sounds like a weird hybrid of Panzer General (The XBLA card game/tbs thing, not the REAL Panzer General) and Eye of Judgement.

[Panopticon]

I'm pretty interested in this. Guild Wars (it even shares the CCG influence) is the proof that this sort of thing can work. People who buy the unlocks on the skills and items in that game have no advantage over a player who has a modest collection of skills and gear acquired through gameplay. I'd argue that someone who merely unlocks everything and then goes off to some wiki to copy someone elses build is at a great disadvantage. I've had great success in Guild Wars PvP with my own builds, just because I have used the skills enough to know how they benefit my playing style.

As long as Mojang keeps things balanced in the game and keeps a close eye on the metagame, this could really be quite an addictive game.

[Nalgas]

From the way I saw it explained, there are several ways to unlock two different classes of cards.

That's pretty interesting and a bit of a relief.  I like the idea of the game, and if I can play it that way without dumping money into it, that's that much better.  Hopefully the game itself lives up to its potential.

My biggest beef with MTG was actually that you could just buy a good deck online. Me and a few friends used to play a lot years ago, and some of the fun were making a deck based on random cards you got form a booster or two. Kind of make do with what you got and kick your opponents ass as best you can and have some fun. Some challenge to jog the brain a bit, and some social fun. Good times.

One of my friends started buying cards online, and eventually he won every time. That got very boring, and to stay competitive I would need to do the same thing. And I did not. So I stopped playing after a while and found other things to do.

That is indeed a problem, but there are solutions even within the world of MTG, although it requires that everyone you play with cooperates.  What I did with my roommate back in the day was have miniature tournament-style drafts in our apartment with just a few of us.  Everyone buys a couple booster packs, and then you each open one, take one card, and pass the remainder to the next person and go around the circle until you run out, then repeat for however many packs you've decided to play with.  You are then only allowed to play using those cards plus basic lands.  Repeat (eventually) when you get bored with your current decks.

We all stuck to those rules, and it let us play (and get back into the game after not having played for years) with minimal costs and the fun/challenge of working with limited/semi-random cards while remaining reasonably balanced.  In some ways I like that style of play more than building the most ridiculously powerful (and expensive) deck possible, too.  Obviously it wouldn't work with people who can't/won't agree to the conditions you set, but they're usually no fun to play with anyway.

The guy whose idea it was in the first place also did the same thing on MTGO, where he would play in eight-player draft tournaments with an "entry fee" of one booster, and between keeping the cards he chose in the draft and occasionally winning or placing moderately well, he'd usually end up with at least one card afterward that was valuable enough that he could trade it in the marketplace for another booster, which he could use to enter another draft, which would win him more cards, which he could trade for more packs...  It basically let him play MTGO for free, completely counter to its goal of milking money out of you by making you pay real money for fake cards.

[BobTheJanitor]

Man when I was into magic (back in Jr. High), there was no such thing as selling cards online. I feel old now. 

[Nalgas]

Man when I was into magic (back in Jr. High), there was no such thing as selling cards online. I feel old now. 

Yeah, I started playing in 1994, not long after it came out, but going to the local game store (back when such things existed) to buy cards was the equivalent for us.  Although I do remember seeing them online very shortly after that, now that I think about it.  There were a few places you could get them from, I think when maybe Fallen Empires was the current expansion at the time, but even they mostly sold through catalogs/mail order, because there wasn't exactly a huge market for...well, anything on the Internet in the mid-90s.

[Echo35]

Yeah, I started playing in 1994, not long after it came out, but going to the local game store (back when such things existed)...

I inhabited game stores quite often back then and I still do now. That industry is still alive and kicking, believe me.

[Nalgas]

Yeah, I started playing in 1994, not long after it came out, but going to the local game store (back when such things existed)...

I inhabited game stores quite often back then and I still do now. That industry is still alive and kicking, believe me.

Sort of, but it's not the same.  We still have some around here that have a good selection of all sorts of stuff, but many of them have gone out of business, and none of them seem to have the same level of activity as they used to.  In a way, it's not fair for me to complain, though, because I'm certainly not helping.  My D&D group a couple years ago basically ordered everything we used online, and I usually only go buy stuff in person at the stores when it's not worth paying shipping or I'm feeling particularly impatient (like whenever it was last year that my girlfriend and I were bored and absolutely had to play the Settlers of Catan card game right now...which was probably the last time I was in that store).  So I guess what I'm saying is that it's all my fault.  Heh.

[Echo35]

We still have some around here that have a good selection of all sorts of stuff, but many of them have gone out of business, and none of them seem to have the same level of activity as they used to.

I dunno where you live, but the last three places I've lived had incredibly active gaming communities centered around the game store. The one here especially, between the Blood Bowl League, the once a month all day game days, the MTG weekly drafts, the Warhammer mini-tournaments every few weeks, weekly game night...

[Nalgas]

I dunno where you live, but the last three places I've lived had incredibly active gaming communities centered around the game store.

Boston, so I'm sure there must be something going on at any given time, given the population size/density and huge number of young people (with all the schools we have).  It might just not be centered around the specific places I used to go, which have declined somewhat.  I haven't gone out of my way to look too hard, though, because between my weekly AI War night and other games, the D&D group I used to have, and our intermittent other-board-game-night-in-someone's-basement (which I really need to bug people to get going again), I'm not in desperate need to find even more stuff like that.

I guess the situation may be better than I think it is.  I mostly base my statements/assumptions on what other people have told me and what I've seen when I do stop in at those places, and that a few have closed and/or moved to smaller/cheaper locations.  The ones that are still around must be doing ok to still be around, though.

[Echo35]

Boston, so I'm sure there must be something going on at any given time, given the population size/density and huge number of young people (with all the schools we have).

Seriously. I live in hick ville and we got lots of gamers