RPS article on why DotA's standard-defying mechanics are what gamers want

[Wingflier]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/08/21/dota-2-pt1/

Mostly, what the success of Dota 2 means is (ARE YOU READY FOR THIS IS) what it means is to do with (NO WAY YOU ARE READY) it’s to do with (GET READY) its success it to do with maximalism. Much like how Demon’s Souls got everybody whispering about how gamers could – gasp! – react with glee to a bastard-hard game, one of the things we can learn from Dota 2 is that gamers aren’t just willing to learn something preposterously big and complicated, they actively enjoy it.

While this generation of game design has seen the gradual simplification of drop-in, drop-out multiplayer, Dota 2 demands its players sit down and fight for up to 70 minutes. As other multiplayer games worry about being intuitive, Dota 2 lets its community bicker over how to play the game, and scream at anyone who can’t figure it out. And then, of course, there are the playable characters. You get 108 heroes in Dota, any one of whom gets six item slots that can hold any one of 140 items (which, in turn, can be consumed, activated or used as components for other items).

All of which is part of the appeal. Discussing this stuff is the same as EVE pilots arguing about ship loadouts, or foot-to-ball fans pontificating on what kick is best to ensure a goal point.

Dota 2 isn’t a good game that’s a bit complicated, as developers around the world seem to think. To the Dota 2 community, the game’s depth and its entertainment value is one and the same. It’s not like they’re sat around bitching about how many items they get to pick from. Yet every single moba I know of that’s currently in development is trying to “correct” Dota’s single, big flaw by making something less demanding.

This Rock-Paper-Shotgun writer seems to think that the blatantly unintuitive, inventive instead of placating, complicated instead of streamlined DotA philosophy is exactly what gamers are craving.

The good news is, Dota 2 is more than just evidence that people enjoy different ideas. It’s evidence that even farcically complicated games aren’t beyond commercial success. I’d actually rather point at Dota 2 than Minecraft as proof that gamers don’t just want to be spoon fed another Call of Duty. Almost anyone can fire up Minecraft and gasp as they find a waterfall with a pig in it or whatever. Actively hunting out Dota 2 and bypassing its thorny husk to squeeze some fun from it speaks of a desperation for inventive design. We are HUNGRY. We are not getting what we WANT. We are feeding OURSELVES.

His prediction is that DotA's uncanny, genre-defying mechanics are going to make it the most popular online game on the market.

What do you guys think? 

Are you satisfied with the current mainstream design mechanics, or do you not mind deep games that are challenging and push you to your limits?

Do you think gamers are craving games that don't coddle them?

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I think I wish the constant postings of the fight between LoL and DOTA2 had stayed in one thread personally. Shocking as it may seem, I am not currently playing any MOBAs since my brief stint in LoL years ago.

[keith.lamothe]

Are you satisfied with the current mainstream design mechanics, or do you not mind deep games that are challenging and push you to your limits?

*Raises Hand* Ooh, ooh! I know this one! It's a rhetorical question!

[KingIsaacLinksr]

Are you satisfied with the current mainstream design mechanics, or do you not mind deep games that are challenging and push you to your limits?

*Raises Hand* Ooh, ooh! I know this one! It's a rhetorical question!

Exactly. We are all different people with different wants out of our game. This discussion is effectively over.

[Wingflier]

It's not a rhetorical question.  There's been a lot of discussion over how DotA breaks all the proper design mechanics, and why that's a horrible thing.

Some people don't want to be pushed to their limits when they play games, they just want to relax and have fun.  I can definitely understand that too, I'm just asking for opinions on this.  What do you look for in a game?

Are the current mainstream design mechanics actually the problem?

Exactly. We are all different people with different wants out of our game. This discussion is effectively over.

No, that's what the discussion is about

[KingIsaacLinksr]

It's not a rhetorical question.  There's been a lot of discussion over how DotA breaks all the proper design mechanics, and why that's a horrible thing.

Some people don't want to be pushed to their limits when they play games, they just want to relax and have fun.  I can definitely understand that too, I'm just asking for opinions on this.  What do you look for in a game?

Are the current mainstream design mechanics actually the problem?

Exactly. We are all different people with different wants out of our game. This discussion is effectively over.

No, that's what the discussion is about

Ok, let's out it in this light: is Bejeweled a problem for the Puzzle genre because of its simple and relaxing mechanics? Or is Tidalis a problem for the puzzle genre because it features complex and limit-testing mechanics? No. It is different strokes for different folks and if people don't like DOTA's mechanics, then the game dies and the genre moves on. I don't really see what's at stake to discuss here.

So to answer your question: no, current mainstream design mechanics aren't the problem. If there is a problem, it is people. But that's a separate and uninteresting discussion all on its own.

[Wingflier]

I don't think it's uninteresting. How are people the problem?

[Mánagarmr]

I would likely play more MOBAs if the communities weren't spawned from hell. Everytime I've tried, I've seen things I've never wanted to see spewn in team chat. The excessive competitive scene and the literal shitheads (sorry) in the community just makes the entire genre completely uninteresting to me.

[RCIX]

Standard? What standard? There is no standard. Dota wrote the standards (before lol broke them all to great benefit). At least within MOBAs.

I don't protest the complexity in Dota, you can have complexity without ruining your player's time. It's orthogonal to the "noobs are idiots and should be punished till they bow to the god of Dota" attitude it feels like Dota takes.

I would likely play more MOBAs if the communities weren't spawned from hell.

*points to Xbox Live*
Not that that's an excuse, just saying we're sort of middle of the road. League is, anyway. Dota is full-bore hostile to anyone who isn't A: a pro, and B: doesn't go beyond godlike every single game.

the literal shitheads (sorry) in the community just makes the entire genre completely uninteresting to me.

Not helping >.>

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I don't think it's uninteresting. How are people the problem?

Game development is dictated by what people want and desire out of games. This can be both good and bad, depending on your point of view. But if people just want a more relaxed game such that LoL (apparently) provides, then the market will cater to the people obviously. That's the general idea behind my statement.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I downloaded the Dota2 spectator client a few days ago to familiarize myself with the replay/spectation interface for the International-2 tournament coming up, so I asked it to load up the replay of the most-recent game it had recorded.

Skipped to the actual beginning of the match and one of the Dire players was marked as disconnected.  One of the other Dire players asked for folks to wait for that player.  After a while the player had not shown and the match started anyway (I'm not sure if it was automatic or player-initiated). 

Apparently someone on the Dire team said something about the 5v4 situation.
One of the Radiant players replied "Nothing I can do about that, boss"
Dire reply: "You're not my boss, pal"
Radiant reply: "You're not my pal, buddy"
Dire reply: "You're not my buddy"
Someone: "Settle down, friend"
Someone else: "You're not my friend"
Someone else: "Look, I'm a marine, don't **** with me" (asterisks mine)
(general degeneration from there)

I'm looking forward to the tournament since they don't do that there, but it just reinforced my "I'd not jump into the queue even if I could and had time" policy

[RCIX]

I can count on half a hand how many times I had people blow up at me during a co-op match in league. And every time, the guy was completely out of his mind

You can get around most of the degenerating comments by never turning on the (relatively recent) opt-in all chat switch, then just typing /ignore all at the start of the game. Pre-game chat is still annoying, but it's relaxed in like Dominion.

[Mánagarmr]

Someone else: "Look, I'm a marine, don't **** with me" (asterisks mine)

Why in the balls is this always showing up? Either all marines are douchebags or there's some kind of "status symbol" to be a pumped up brute that kills people. FOR REAL.

[Mánagarmr]

I can count on half a hand how many times I had people blow up at me during a co-op match in league. And every time, the guy was completely out of his mind

You can get around most of the degenerating comments by never turning on the (relatively recent) opt-in all chat switch, then just typing /ignore all at the start of the game. Pre-game chat is still annoying, but it's relaxed in like Dominion.

Erm...okay, so you want me to go in to a coordination heavy gameplay...and ignore my team. Am I reading this right?

[Wingflier]

I don't think it's uninteresting. How are people the problem?

Game development is dictated by what people want and desire out of games. This can be both good and bad, depending on your point of view. But if people just want a more relaxed game such that LoL (apparently) provides, then the market will cater to the people obviously. That's the general idea behind my statement.

But doesn't seem that the entire system is also bit cyclical? Yes on the one side, people define what the designers make, but don't the designers also dictate what the people want as well?

To give an example, I see many of these "child beauty pagents" and dance contests on TV.  They're obviously popular enough to stay on the air.  However, I can't see any rational person (especially a parent) waking up one morning and say, "Hey, maybe it would be a good idea to make a TV show where we sexualize and objectify young and innocent girls, then have them compete against each other for who can be the sexiest!"

Yet even though nobody requested this, it's what people watch.  The same goes for many of these "reality TV shows" filled with nonsense and white trash.  I highly doubt anybody asked for that, but it's all over the place, and it's what people have become accustomed to.

So maybe the developers influence the customers more than the customers influence the developers.