Author Topic: RPS article on why DotA's standard-defying mechanics are what gamers want  (Read 4057 times)

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Oh it's definitely a two way street. Which is why you have DOTA and LoL. Two different games. Now it's down to the consumer and Whether they choose one or both.

My question is, what is the concern? Is DOTA in trouble of sinking or something that sparked this recent discussion?
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Offline RCIX

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I can count on half a hand how many times I had people blow up at me during a co-op match in league. And every time, the guy was completely out of his mind :P

You can get around most of the degenerating comments by never turning on the (relatively recent) opt-in all chat switch, then just typing /ignore all at the start of the game. Pre-game chat is still annoying, but it's relaxed in like Dominion.
Erm...okay, so you want me to go in to a coordination heavy gameplay...and ignore my team. Am I reading this right?
Starting to see my problem?
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Offline Wingflier

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The question is, are the current mainstream design mechanics what people really want?

Or has there just been nothing on the market lately to appeal to them?

Another way to phrase the question is:

Do you think DotA 2 will become more popular than (or take a large portion of the playerbase of) League of Legends when it is full released?

It's not a trick question, I'm genuinely interested in what people have to say.
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Offline RCIX

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I think it will dent, certainly. All depends on how on-guard League is and when "full release" comes.
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Offline Minotaar

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(trying to get back on topic? Blasphemy!  :D)
You know, I actually got this feeling way before this article was posted (I didn't read it, as the general idea is pretty clear from the quotations), when you guys had your dota/lol arguments  :) A large part of DotA's appeal definitely lies in these weird design choices, some dictated by the underlying game, some seemingly just decided on a whim. When I tried to pick up LoL (I only ran several matches with bots, so PLEASE take this as nothing more than a first impression), it feld bland and uninteresting. None of the items in the shop grabbed my attention, were something that I'd really WANT to get. The heroes (well, excuse me. I'm used to calling them that, even though dota2 is renaming to champions IIRC) felt too polished, always having synergy between all of their abilities, and said abilities featured enormous amounts of rules text to make them work that way. The bushes badly needed a sign "Hide HERE. You're welcome".
All of this just felt overengineered and unnatural. And because of this I now understand that desire for games that are unpolished, rough around the edges, even buggy, that desire that to this day drives people to play Starcraft: Brood War. Though that one's too much for me personally :) Those games have lots of opportunities for clever and neat plays to come up, and discovering and learning them is great fun to many people, I think.

As for which game will become more popular, I couldn't care less, since I don't really play either anymore  :) The community problems are a consequence of the team-based nature of the games and them not being played like they're supposed to, and I'm pretty sure have nothing to do with the actual mechanics of either game.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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I actually say "Thank God someone said this." Letalone, a fairly reputable source. I have my genres I like, and my genres that I don't, but for the genres that I work well with, I love to dive into complex things. I don't want to play a first person shooter where I am told where to go and what to shoot. I also don't want to play a simplistic, slow-paced one where I can do whatever I want. I want action, speed, and fine nuances to learn. I recognize this will not be the case for say, casual shooter players, but bear with me.

Tidalis. This game is in a genre that I don't get along well with-- Puzzle games. Pure puzzle games, I am often quite bad at. I wasn't bad at say, Tetrisphere, but that game really is just color matching like the only ones I can actually play. Tidalis didn't appeal to me because it was just too hard for me to even get anywhere in it... but, it's unlikely that any other puzzle games, even casually focused ones, would get my money either.

I know this may just be me, but it's all or nothing for the genres I'm into, and I'd just as soon not get into the genres that I don't care much for than for every game to cater to the lowest common denominator. I do not want to be coddled, and I don't want any developer to waste their time making a very fancy game with very few game mechanics. It's just depressing to me, to see a game that is particularly simple, or a game that omits things deliberately because they are not fun, or even a game that gets the fundamentals wrong. I just feel like whether you're spending millions or thousands of dollars, you should really do it right. Pack in as much as you can. Don't phone it in. Leave the more casual games to cell phones and iOS devices.
Complexity only gets to me if I actually can only play the game and learn it by dragging other players down. This is probably the only reason I don't like DotA or LoL. I don't want to ruin their fun, but the game doesn't really teach you very well. From my understanding you basically have to go through a college course worth of reading to learn how to do any given thing in those games. So... I love complexity, but I do not like it when you have to get a degree in Defense of the Ancients in order to play it. AI War is perfect in that respect. Just play diff 1, you don't have to learn or do anything then. :P
But, if you want it, the depth is there.

Offline Wingflier

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I agree with you LaughingThesaurus.

I can completely understand why someone wouldn't want to play a MOBA game, but at the same time, still wants their games to be deep and complicated.
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Offline Cyborg

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How is a game that is a remake of a game that is a mod of a game "revolutionary?"
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Offline keith.lamothe

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How is a game that is a remake of a game that is a mod of a game "revolutionary?"
And the game it's a mod of is the third in a series.

Nonetheless, I'd say any game that singlehandedly establishes its own wildly successful (in both fun had and money made) genre could be called revolutionary.  Not as much so as some other games that have earned the label, but a valid use of the term nonetheless.

Of course, that goes for DotA, not necessarily DotA2.  But I kind of see them as the same game in the way I see AIW 3.0 and AIW 4.0 (and onwards) as the same game.  Not that they don't have significant differences aside from the engine-change, and not that some of those changes aren't regretted (or lauded) by some players, but it's the same product, etc.

However, my browser can't seem to find the word "revolutionary" in this thread before your post, so I'm not sure of the context :)
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Offline Cyborg

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However, my browser can't seem to find the word "revolutionary" in this thread before your post, so I'm not sure of the context :)

Yes, yes, I misinterpreted all of the ball-washing about how awesome this game is with the word revolutionary. What I mean to say is, it's the same thing we been doing all along because it's a remake. What is with the shock and awe? I have played the game, and it feels worse than the original. It's a step backwards in my opinion.
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Offline RCIX

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However, my browser can't seem to find the word "revolutionary" in this thread before your post, so I'm not sure of the context :)

Yes, yes, I misinterpreted all of the ball-washing about how awesome this game is with the word revolutionary. What I mean to say is, it's the same thing we been doing all along because it's a remake. What is with the shock and awe? I have played the game, and it feels worse than the original. It's a step backwards in my opinion.
Which makes no sense, because it was made for one of the most change-averse, picky playerbases in existence.
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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It might just not feel right from an aesthetic sort of standpoint. A game can "feel" different while being mechanically identical to other games. Imagine if all of Diablo 3 took place in Whimsyshire and that was its own game? It would feel completely different and wrong compared to Diablo 3, a game that plays identically to it.
I'm not the one to actually talk though... just brainstorming.

Offline Cyborg

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No, I have legitimate gripes about the game. The perspective is slightly off (you are zoomed in too much), and the speed is just a little bit faster. This means it makes the game more twitchy than actually making decisions and reacting. The original did not feel like that.
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Offline Wingflier

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However, my browser can't seem to find the word "revolutionary" in this thread before your post, so I'm not sure of the context :)

Yes, yes, I misinterpreted all of the ball-washing about how awesome this game is with the word revolutionary. What I mean to say is, it's the same thing we been doing all along because it's a remake. What is with the shock and awe? I have played the game, and it feels worse than the original. It's a step backwards in my opinion.
Which makes no sense, because it was made for one of the most change-averse, picky playerbases in existence.
Well just because it feels like a step backwards to one, apparently heavily-biased person, doesn't mean that ex-DotA vets aren't happy with the sequel.  Personally I think they've done a fantastic job.

Also, once again I'm amazed that we're getting so caught up on this "remake" business, as if a remake of something can't be revolutionary.

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy was a film remake to an already successful book series.  It didn't NEED to be done, but it was absolutely fantastic, even though it probably cut out a huge amount of content in the process.  Most people will agree that those movies will go down in history as classics.

Counter-Strike was a revolutionary modification when it came out - it redefined First-Person Shooters into what we know and love today.  7 years after the quite disappointing Counter-Strike: Source was released, CS:GO is an absolute beast of a game, and a complete reincarnation of what made Counter-Strike such a wonderful and unique game to begin with.  Is there any major changes from the original formula?  Not really, it's just a whole slew of minor improvements.  But after buying it recently, I think it is a much superior game to any of the Battlefield, Call of Duty, Halo, etc. games that have come out in its absence.  Revolutionary?  For its time yes, and because since then, its formula has not been successfully replicated.

If you don't understand what makes DotA revolutionary, then you either didn't read the article, or you didn't understand it.  We're stuck in an age full of video games that many gamers hate.  The "formula" and "genre standards" that are constantly used, and re-used, about how you always have to cater to the lowest common denominator, make the game simple and intuitive, and never do anything "anti-fun" or add mechanics that could possibly piss anybody off, have, in many people's eyes, ruined the gaming world.  If this wasn't the case, then why do we have to rely on Indie Companies, such as Arcen, to make quality games which the mainstream companies are refused to make, which exist outside the formula?

What makes DotA revolutionary in our current age is that it takes all the mainstream design formulas that have ruined the gaming world, and throws them out the window.  DotA is designed around the well-being of the game, not the player.  Anything that will improve the game, like a well-oiled machine, will be added.  Where in other games, the player enters into Disneyland where you have a nice fluffy mascot holding your hand and guiding you along the way, entering DotA is like entering a hostile, beautiful, unexplored planet.  The planet doesn't care about you, it wasn't designed with you in mind.  If you want to understand the planet, discover its riches, and ultimately conquer it, you will have to scale its treacherous mountains and endless valleys.  You'll have to choke on its toxic gases, and breathe its fresh cool air.  You'll have to know which parts to cherish and which parts to avoid, and eventually become master of your dominion, which you can share with others.

How many games offer this experience?  How many games nowadays aren't like that Disneyland mascot, taking you by the hand and making sure you never go off path?  Some people may like that, but some of us miss cutting through the forests of danger and discovery on our own even more. 

What the reviewer is saying is that DotA does this in a way that games these days no longer offer.  What's more, it does it for free, and with 9 other people, for better or for worse.

Take caution, the journey is not for everybody.  But for those who are tired of being coddled, and courageous enough to brave the dangerous unknown - the rewards cannot be matched.

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Offline Cyborg

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Thanks for at least using the word revolutionary.
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