Roguelikes

[zespri]

Oh, I might have found a solution: http://techlorebyigor.blogspot.com/2009/02/how-to-cheat-in-dungeon-crawl.html

[Cyborg]

Dwarf Fortress is a whole different problem. They are doing three axis interaction on ASCII symbol tiles. Combine that with generally obtuse mechanics, such as their indoor farming, and you create a game that may as well be symbols on a Mayan temple. You can decipher it, but you better enjoy doing research on figuring out how to play the game just as much as you enjoy playing the game itself. What they need is an interface, and people that play dungeons of dredmor really like that aspect. We do not feel it is too much to expect a little interface love in year 2011.

[Nalgas]

I'm going to throw this out there but perhaps the reason you struggle to get into roguelikes is because a large part of the appeal of roguelikes is that you constantly feel like you might die at the drop of a hat (at least until you're sufficiently skilled at living on the knife edge) - and that pivotal aspect of them doesn't appeal to you?

That is pretty much exactly why I can't play them anymore.  I started playing roguelikes with Rogue itself back in the day, and there are so many things I like about them, but I just get really sick after a while of having everything taken away from me and having to start over entirely after YASD.  These days I have more fun reading other people's playthroughs of them or about all the ridiculous "the devteam thinks of everything" mechanics included in NetHack and other games rather than actually trying to play myself and inevitably getting frustrated and swearing off (and at) them entirely for a few years.

[zebramatt]

I'm going to throw this out there but perhaps the reason you struggle to get into roguelikes is because a large part of the appeal of roguelikes is that you constantly feel like you might die at the drop of a hat (at least until you're sufficiently skilled at living on the knife edge) - and that pivotal aspect of them doesn't appeal to you?

That is pretty much exactly why I can't play them anymore.  I started playing roguelikes with Rogue itself back in the day, and there are so many things I like about them, but I just get really sick after a while of having everything taken away from me and having to start over entirely after YASD.  These days I have more fun reading other people's playthroughs of them or about all the ridiculous "the devteam thinks of everything" mechanics included in NetHack and other games rather than actually trying to play myself and inevitably getting frustrated and swearing off (and at) them entirely for a few years.

Aye. I must admit, they're an occasional masochistic pleasure for me; rather than a game I'll play at all consistently. But I do rather enjoy them nonetheless.

[Echo35]

I'm going to throw this out there but perhaps the reason you struggle to get into roguelikes is because a large part of the appeal of roguelikes is that you constantly feel like you might die at the drop of a hat (at least until you're sufficiently skilled at living on the knife edge) - and that pivotal aspect of them doesn't appeal to you?

For me, anyway, dying has always been part of their particular charm. If I want to not die, there's plenty of other dungeon-crawling games which are in many ways much 'better' - but roguelikes always pull me back, no matter how crappy the interface might seem. It's just more satisfying when I do well in a roguelike because I know careless death lurks around every corner.

That's a lot of the reason I play them over any other RPG. The randomized dungeons and items and procedural content rocks too (And keeps me playing for a long time), but the risk and danger of them is where the real fun is. Games are a lot more exciting when there's a challenge, and being able to save and reload at any time really kills said danger.

[Nalgas]

Games are a lot more exciting when there's a challenge, and being able to save and reload at any time really kills said danger.

That's definitely a valid type of challenge, and I like it sometimes, but usually only with shorter types of games.  There are still different kinds of challenges available even when you can save and reload as many times as you want, though.

In a game with that kind of scope, what I enjoy the most is figuring out how all the systems work and interact with each other and what they allow you to do.  When every mistake you make sends you all the way back to the beginning and it potentially takes hours to get back to the point where something new or interesting is happening, depending on how much you've played the game before, it really, really slows down that aspect of it nearly to a halt at times.  When discovery/experimentation is your favorite part of it and you're forced to slog through permutations of stuff you've already seen dozens of times for another glimpse of something new, it starts to lose its charm.

The same kind of thing affects the ARPGs that are one of the modern spinoffs of the roguelike genre, at least for me (and not surprisingly, I never, ever play them in "hardcore" mode).  Throw as many procedurally generated maps/levels in them as you want to try to keep it fresh, but I will get sick of starting new characters from level 1 just to try out all the different options and see what weird skill combinations I can come up with that actually work.  If it's one of those games that's designed so you can play through again on higher difficulty levels with the same character like Diablo or Titan Quest, it's a pretty safe bet that after the first couple times I've made it through the first difficulty level I will be starting all my new characters out on the second one, and after a couple of times through the second, all new ones will start by default on the third, and so on.  Even if I have to use a mod or "cheat" to do so (I play single-player, so whatever, it doesn't affect anyone else).

It's totally a personal preference/taste thing, though.  I don't expect to convince anyone to agree with me, because I don't actually think they're wrong.  I get why people like permadeath in games like these, because there is definitely something to be said for the added risk vs. reward that you don't usually get anywhere near that degree in other games.  I guess it's that exact same risk vs. reward proposition that's the same reason that other people dislike them, though, because they're attracted to or enjoy different elements of the game and don't find the reward nearly rewarding enough to put up with that amount of risk and end up just finding it frustrating instead.

[laughingman]

Permadeath is an integral part of what makes a roguelike, well, rogue-like. It's also why these games, which I love dearly, will remain a tiny niche in gaming. It takes a certain kind of mindset to enjoy them: you have to like trying to get out of clearly unfair situations, expect and accept failure, and be bloody-minded enough to get back up, dust yourself off, and try again. And again. And again. Ad Infinitum. I understand why this doesn't appeal to everyone, but it's the main reason I play them. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

If you want to play a roguelike that turns some of the genre conventions around, try Shiren the Wanderer for the DS. You have a persistent storehouse that you can keep items in. It adds a whole other level of risk/reward calculation to the game. Do I use this powerful weapon now, or wait a few runs and have the blacksmith make it even more powerful? Take all of my healing items out now or save some for a future run?

It's difficult but possible to clear the main dungeon without using the storehouse at all, but you can also spend some time crafting some powerful gear that will make it much easier. Of course, since it's a roguelike you'll never be able to make yourself completely safe.

[Nalgas]

If you want to play a roguelike that turns some of the genre conventions around, try Shiren the Wanderer for the DS. You have a persistent storehouse that you can keep items in. It adds a whole other level of risk/reward calculation to the game. Do I use this powerful weapon now, or wait a few runs and have the blacksmith make it even more powerful? Take all of my healing items out now or save some for a future run?

That's actually a really interesting idea.  It's debatable whether or not it'd drive me completely nuts in practice, constantly worrying about whether I'm going to screw myself over by using or not using each thing I get, but I'll definitely give them bonus points for taking the basic concept behind what makes the genre what it is and running with it without looking back.  Maybe one of these days I should steal my girlfriend's DS for a bit, since she seems to be too busy to use it much lately anyway.  Heh.

[laughingman]

Nalgas, it's a game that's definitely worth your time if you can find it. It has some real charm and wit. I'd say it's my favorite game in this genre since the original Rogue. I clearly can't say too many good things about it.

The storehouse mechanic is very well-thought-out and while there is the potential for option paralysis, in practice it's not bad at all. Once you get a sense for how the enemies and dungeons work, it's fairly easy to decide what you're going to bring on that particular run. There are multiple storehouses throughout the game, so if your run is going badly halfway through you can bank the items you want to save and try to get them back next time.

[Echo35]

Permadeath is an integral part of what makes a roguelike, well, rogue-like. It's also why these games, which I love dearly, will remain a tiny niche in gaming. It takes a certain kind of mindset to enjoy them: you have to like trying to get out of clearly unfair situations, expect and accept failure, and be bloody-minded enough to get back up, dust yourself off, and try again. And again. And again. Ad Infinitum. I understand why this doesn't appeal to everyone, but it's the main reason I play them. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

Failure is the only way to get better at anything, especially games like these.

[Nalgas]

Failure is the only way to get better at anything, especially games like these.

Ah, but you see, being able to reload from a save file allows me to fail repeatedly in a much smaller span of time.  I can get better at failing much more quickly and efficiently that way.  Or something.  Heh.

[doctorfrog]

When I first played Nethack about 12 years ago, I figured out how to do some basic savescumming, not even really realizing it was kind of looked down upon. It wasn't long before I lost interest in that and started playing the game like anyone else. I think I just realized that to play Nethack (and most roguelikes), you have to let go of the idea that your character is this precious thing you've lovingly slaved to build up. If anything, that energy should go to gameplay knowledge and building up your skill, not any single character's.

If you're just starting out and trying to get the ropes, I don't think you should savescum, but if you must, there's not much shame in it. OTOH, if it's been a couple months, and you're still savescumming, or you beat the game savescumming, you might be playing the wrong kind of game.

If you want to play without risk, just play in the wizard mode. Also, the action semi-roguelike Transcendence offers unlimited continues, so you might want to give that a try. The previously mentioned Shiren series also offers creative alternatives to total volatility.

[Cyborg]

If you're just starting out and trying to get the ropes, I don't think you should savescum, but if you must, there's not much shame in it. OTOH, if it's been a couple months, and you're still savescumming, or you beat the game savescumming, you might be playing the wrong kind of game.

It is incorrect to turn people away from single-player games. If that's the way they want to enjoy it, who cares? Do you know any special needs who play games? I do, and I can tell you that these are the following things that happen:

• They may cheat
• they will ask their family members to do it for them
  Without any of the first two points...
• The controller goes flying to the wall

It doesn't matter who is playing or what their skill level is. Whatever makes it fun for them, so be it. For me, I like having my own personal save programs because I don't like starting at the beginning killing blobs over and over because the game crashed or the power went out. I understand the reason for the penalty, and I'm willing to accept the penalty if it's my fault sometimes. However, if it's more fun for me to beat the game using a little help the first time around, who does that bother? I learn a lot more from fixing my mistakes than I do from punishing myself by starting over. And really, I think that's the mechanic; the game wants to punish you into making more conservative choices and balancing risk and reward.

Telling people to try a different game because they don't play it the same way is kind of snooty. I can see a multiplayer game where cheating is ruining someone else's experience, but in all other cases, who really cares?

In other news, I wish we could see the tags because this markup is broken on this forum. I don't understand why we had to upgrade; this is a downgrade.

[doctorfrog]

Woah, chill dude. I was just suggesting that he might have more fun playing a game that's more his style. I don't care if he savescums or not, just that if he has to, maybe he's better off putting his efforts into something more rewarding.

For that matter, it's neither correct, nor incorrect to suggest someone play a different game. It's just, like, my opinion, man. He's bright enough to take advice or ignore it.

[zebramatt]

Wait, whoa. Did doctorfrog just say that people can play the game any way they like but that if they're inclined to change such a fundamental aspect then these sorts of games may not be for them at all; only to be rebuked by Cyborg saying that people who savescum in roguelikes are like people with special needs?

Well that was a confusing turn!