Author Topic: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE  (Read 154430 times)

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #525 on: September 18, 2014, 10:46:39 pm »
If you can handle the mental burden, it really only takes a few clicks to get everything in order. With so many game mechanics that work with the player to create automated factory and waypoint systems, the tax of PA lies on the mind.

And yet the game feels like it doesn't take some of the best features or UI choices that previous RTS games have created. I can't put my finger on what PA is missing, but it's missing a lot of little somethings that would make this game a lot more enjoyable and a hell of a lot less micro-management intensive. I dunno, I'm going to play some more and maybe identify the problem spots. But it is clear that PA was not finished before release and has a ways to go.
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Offline doctorfrog

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #526 on: September 19, 2014, 03:10:13 am »
If I read RockPaperShotgun for reviews, I also listen to 3 Moves Ahead for an extremely nerdy analysis of strategy games. Here's TMA's Rob Zacny on PA: https://www.readability.com/articles/yfiitui5

Video on the main review: http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/09/17/planetary-annihilation-review

Spoiler: it's not overall favorable. And it honestly doesn't sound like it deserves to be hailed as a worthy successor to the TA throne, though it could be, someday.

I'm still not completely soured on getting the game, myself, but I think it needs a few years of mods and development love (not to mention removal of the requirement for an internet connection for single player!) to get where it's supposed to be.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 03:14:51 am by doctorfrog »

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #527 on: September 19, 2014, 08:48:32 am »
For me to be HAPPY with it requires the offline mode. That's an absolute MUST. Being able to host your own servers is the next thing in line. After that? Hmm, optimization I guess. It noms a ridiculous amount of RAM with anything beyond 8-10 planets, or even HUGE planets. An AI that doesn't go borked when you mod the game is always nice.


Right click to set formation and factory assisting (have one factory assist another and thus sharing build queue) are two things I'm missing from SupCom. Other than that? Honestly, when playing one one BIG planet, it feels a lot like TA. I just wish that the balance mod didn't completely bork the AI or miss 80% of the icons. You can have only so many "dots" before you start questioning your sanity.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #528 on: September 19, 2014, 11:20:56 am »
I am going to do something I am only going to do once, I analyze the game (or rather, with does different to anyone else, and why that is maybe a problem ;)

That no tier 1 unit has an icon is actually one of the gravest oversights of them all (all aside). In a way it is actually kinda baffling that for once I agree with IGN, I thought I liked planets.... I was mistaken!.. the idea was new, it was cool. But it is extreme usability nightmare. All Views only display 50% of the planet and the closer you zoom, the less you see, there is no way around that unless you use a tethered PiP, and you only have 1 pip....... If there was only 1 major planet (when I saw the KS I thought moons would be dominated entirely by "outer space" units and not act the same as planet locked land battles) it would work, but the more I played the more I realized that other planets are really just "other maps"

Imagine playing SupCom 1 in it's terrifying huge scale (Tier 3 groups being devastated, insane long range artillery, nuke barrages) on 4 large maps at the same time all the while you play Kingslayer mode with a slow moving and VERY low health unit (commander dead, game over). That is PA. And it was a bad idea. A hugely bad idea to not include alternative win conditions.

To quote IGN
Quote
It's a fog-of-war you can never dispel; even when you have radar coverage of an entire planet, your situational awareness is severely reduced.

So PA is like playing (1/3 of) SupCom 1 with half the map blocked off unless you focus on it (then the other half gets blocked off) in terms of usability that is a nightmare. It's funny that I never realized until PA what huge genius it was from Civ 4 and 5 to do planets the way they did them. Hex and Grid based maps can be easily "wrapped" but without having geometric tiling at your disposal you literally can not fix the situational awareness problem.

PA would have needed severe design overhaul in relation to how they did planets. Planets should have inaccessible poles to some degree (the reason is near the poles, the angles and distances between steps are very small, this means cameras have the problem that they can "flip" over the pole and rotate 180° a HUGE usability problem when playing with pole-lock. And poles are the primary source of distortion in mapping and unwrapping of a sphere.

Planets should have grid based geometry, alá Civ4, this doesn't mean building or movement needs to adhere to the grid, but when it comes down to it a grid based planet allows you to remove poles from the projection and display the ENTIRE planet as a flat map with no (noticeable) distortion. This would have allowed a properly flat projected minimap per planet.

So I can understand that they didn't do it. This is counter to what they already had done to make planets look more planet'ish. (their entire design projects for planets was actually a hugely bad idea in retro-perspective) When you make planets you do everything you can to NOT have to use brushes. (because of relative projection issues). This is why nearly every visual tool in existence uses procedural height-maps as source for planet geometry. This is just, infinitely easier to procedurally generate than brushes on an already existing flat sphere. But they wanted to do craters without the game requiring DX11.

Because DX11 has a functionality for craters... this can feed back to CPU and be synced over network just fine. In the end, I realize PA is a series of concessions and band-aids slapped on a genuinely impressive idea the designers had. But they faltered turning that idea into a practical reality. What we have now is PA, and it is not really horrible. It is relatively fun if you set yourself some restrictions. But it COULD have been so much more, so much better.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 11:25:01 am by eRe4s3r »
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Offline doctorfrog

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #529 on: September 19, 2014, 01:53:07 pm »
Interesting analysis. I don't know much about mapping stuff to spheres, but even having a distorted map that shows 100% of the playfield might be forgivable... if it wouldn't be so off-putting. And you'd have people saying, "why bother with spheres at all?"

Maybe there are other ways to use the novelty of the sphere, like you say, restrict polar movement, or have the planets generate continents as battlegrounds, so the action stays on one side of the map (with perhaps missile or orbital exchanges going on cross-continentally). It's a fun problem to tussle with in my head.

Part of the issue I think is that you'll get players wanting full-planet stuff, just because. Sometimes players (especially more vocal ones) chafe against any sort of restriction, or demand features that turn out to not be in the best interest of the game. So, you'd make it up to them in a way, by making alternate use of the sphere: simulate seasons, tilt, tides, day/night cycles, and planets' positions relative to the sun and one another. These would of course have effects on economy and combat. The sphere idea would still have a purpose beyond visuals, and would have significant effect on the game. (I assume PA already does this to a point?)

It's a really cool-looking game that seems like it will need some more developer attention, and I hope it gets it.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 02:03:47 pm by doctorfrog »

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #530 on: September 19, 2014, 04:28:13 pm »
Sooo...if you don't like playing on planets, why play the game? It's like saying "God, I HATE puzzle games!" while playing Tetris. It's kinda odd, tbh. I personally don't find I have much issues with playing on a planet, as I normally don't have a base sprawling the entire planet. Normally I have a bookmark on my base and then one on every "combat hotspot" that I've noticed. That is places where my and other players units tend to clash. Or a direction from where my enemy come from often. If I have multiple planets I simply have more bookmarks.


I really don't get how this is an issue. Do you have as much overview as in SupCom? No, of course not. Is that a problem? No, not to me. It's just part of the game that you have limited intel. In addition, that limited intel makes invasions possible. Because if you had complete and utter control of an entire planet, no one would ever be able to invade it. Land a unit or two, yes, but they'd get blown up instantly. Now you can have cases where a player will analyse an enemy planet and figure out where he has the least intel and land an engineer there to build a teleporter and invade. I do not, in any way, see this as bad. It's good. The game would one giant turtlefest with nukes flying everywhere if this wasn't the case. Who cares about land units? Just make sure no one can land on your planet and spam those nukes boys!


Edit: I'm not "defending" PA as a fanboy, because I'm bloody annoyed by a lot of things in the game, but most of the "criticism" I've seen leveraged against it here just doesn't make sense to me. At all. Bad GUI, people say. I don't see how. Bad unit variety, I don't see how. Now bad unit balance? Yes. Teching up is the end all be all iWin button and that sucks. I'd like either a delayed techup or less of a power spike from teching up. Orbital combat and orbital overall is not fleshed out enough and basically amounts to spamming Avengers which is unimaginative. But again, the criticism in this thread just goes right over my head.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 04:31:09 pm by Mánagarmr »
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #531 on: September 19, 2014, 09:34:42 pm »
Sooo...if you don't like playing on planets, why play the game? It's like saying "God, I HATE puzzle games!" while playing Tetris. It's kinda odd, tbh. I personally don't find I have much issues with playing on a planet, as I normally don't have a base sprawling the entire planet. Normally I have a bookmark on my base and then one on every "combat hotspot" that I've noticed. That is places where my and other players units tend to clash. Or a direction from where my enemy come from often. If I have multiple planets I simply have more bookmarks.


I really don't get how this is an issue. Do you have as much overview as in SupCom? No, of course not. Is that a problem? No, not to me. It's just part of the game that you have limited intel. In addition, that limited intel makes invasions possible. Because if you had complete and utter control of an entire planet, no one would ever be able to invade it. Land a unit or two, yes, but they'd get blown up instantly. Now you can have cases where a player will analyse an enemy planet and figure out where he has the least intel and land an engineer there to build a teleporter and invade. I do not, in any way, see this as bad. It's good. The game would one giant turtlefest with nukes flying everywhere if this wasn't the case. Who cares about land units? Just make sure no one can land on your planet and spam those nukes boys!


Edit: I'm not "defending" PA as a fanboy, because I'm bloody annoyed by a lot of things in the game, but most of the "criticism" I've seen leveraged against it here just doesn't make sense to me. At all. Bad GUI, people say. I don't see how. Bad unit variety, I don't see how. Now bad unit balance? Yes. Teching up is the end all be all iWin button and that sucks. I'd like either a delayed techup or less of a power spike from teching up. Orbital combat and orbital overall is not fleshed out enough and basically amounts to spamming Avengers which is unimaginative. But again, the criticism in this thread just goes right over my head.

Different strokes, different folks.

I didn't consider the whole "Planetary" part of PA meaning "You are fighting on planets the size of moons!" which seems to be the case more often then not.

I actually would consider eRe4s3r the best review of how, in addition to how PA literally didn't deliver everything I imagined as a sequel to supreme commander 1 nor as what they promised, but also how on the features they did promise being completely different from what i imagined.
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Offline doctorfrog

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #532 on: September 19, 2014, 10:49:36 pm »
Sooo...if you don't like playing on planets, why play the game? It's like saying "God, I HATE puzzle games!" while playing Tetris.

Well, puzzle games are a genre. This is about criticizing a feature of a game, not expressing dislike for a genre and demanding that it bend in your direction.

However, you do have a point, in saying that having imperfect knowledge can be a good feature to have, even an enjoyable one. Question is: is it?

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #533 on: September 19, 2014, 11:38:51 pm »
In my mind it isn't... when a game has limitation of combat awareness then that is a game-design fault, not a game-design feature. They implemented planets and didn't implement a system to give us proper Intel even though that should have been number 1 priority when making an RTS. Can you really call that then a feature? Was that expectable from the KS? ;)

I do not "hate" planets per sé, I merely argue that with proper design full intel of at least 1 planet alá sup-com would have been easily possible. And planets could have been alot less annoying to handle. Let's face it, SupCom worked because you could zoom out and see everything easily. You could also zoom in, and still see everything easily, thanks to a configurable minimap. You could even split your view and have a minimap active at the same time, or have half your view be a minimap. Supcom literally had one of the best GUI designs in rts gaming.

Either way, I think with mods the GUI can be acceptable, but if you ask ME what I hate about the GUI (just from the top of my hat, no way to see where you aimed nuclear missiles after they launched, no way to see where teleporters link to, factories display +1 even when that is something they are currently already building (which is the OPPOSITE of all SupCom and TA games ever, they showed no number when something was actively built, this made sense because why would you queue a unit in production when that is already being produced anyway?) And it makes setting production ratios confusing as hell. Because you never know what is currently being built without zooming in. Then there is that you can't configure the PIP nor can you configure icon scale. There is no way to scale or reposition the PIP. There is no way to see where units will end up after giving the move order.

I just think they did planets in a way that a lot of people (including me) find quite annoying up to horribly irritating. Partially because of GUI but also partially because of design reasons.

And as backer I obviously couldn't have predicted they'd implement planets without giving us proper overviews. Or that we would be fighting on moons the same way we would be fighting on planets.

The fact that they hyped this game as a "spiritual successor of SUPCOM" is why I compare it feature wise to SupCom. ;/
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 11:43:41 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #534 on: September 20, 2014, 08:32:54 am »
UI is amazingly difficult to get right. And I think a lot of people just don't "get" how to make a good UI. It is almost like being able to draw or make music it seems. And I'm not just limiting this to games. I find I'm constantly the only advocate of UI changes (or heck, even spending real time on UI design in the first place) at work. Poor UIs tend to drives me bonkers. So apparently I should probably give PA a pass for now :) .

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #535 on: September 20, 2014, 11:24:40 am »
That's true.. I think good GUI can only be really made when you prototype it, revise it, change it, fix it, and then test it and test it until you bleed from the eyes.

It's funny that whenever I think of GUI issues I must think of AI War too because by the heavens, that "context" menu.... until this day I never figured out how to actually USE it for anything. And this takes some special skill to design an UI element I can not figure out ;)

The biggest problem with GUI is apart from features simply not being there, you also have very little feedback. Launching a nuke should paint a nuclear symbol with the blast range on the ground and the siren should not just be focused on the missile itself (I mean, what the heavens is that even good for? The one who launches it doesn't need to hear the alarm where the missiles launch, he needs to hear it where they will hit (And so does the enemy)!) and when I give a move order that point should be MARKED ala <1> when that is a move-order for an entire group...

It's the small things that can really break an GUI (and to me, visual feedback is part of the (G) UI (Graphical User Interface) the user Interface even involves audio and visual cues. Anything that in any way feeds back information to the player is part of the GUI. Which is why GUI design is one of the most important things in making games. And so so very many games and developers fail at even the simplest challenges when it comes to GUI. Maybe they think it's enough to put functionality in the HUD? But GUI goes beyond that.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #536 on: September 20, 2014, 05:59:27 pm »
The context menu is difficult to use with AI war. I still refer to the forums sometimes, even after all this time. I guess we all learned to work with it. I'm sure most people don't even know it exists. :-)
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Offline Misery

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #537 on: September 20, 2014, 07:37:53 pm »
Context menu?

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #538 on: September 20, 2014, 08:11:14 pm »
Are you talking about the menu that has line place in it?

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #539 on: September 20, 2014, 10:17:24 pm »
Exactly. :-) Haha!  :P
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