Author Topic: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE  (Read 154487 times)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #465 on: September 08, 2014, 05:33:47 pm »
Ahhh, I wonder whatever happened to SupCom?  That coulda gone on as a full series.
SupCom2 happened.
    SupCom2 happened.
As far as I know, Supcom 2 trumped the original in sales by a large margin. It also received very positive reviews in general, including being labeled the co-op game of the year by several notable gaming sites.

It seems like there's this cult fanbase that pretends Supcom 1 was some successful or revolutionary title for the genre, and I hate to break it to those people but it wasn't. It really didn't do much, 20 years later, that Total Annihilation hadn't already accomplished. The resource requirements were absolutely insane, so that 75% of the potential playerbase couldn't even use it, and the game itself was kind of an unorganized mess, the story was lackluster, the multiplayer was buggy and laggy. It just wasn't a great game, even with the standalone FA expansion. It didn't tread anywhere new or do anything particularly well.

Supcom 2 wasn't all that revolutionary either, but 5 years later it had graphics which trumped the original and were about 75% less resource intensive. The "research tree" was also a nice touch and had never been attempted in the ground-based RTS genre, at least as a resource in a fast-paced setting (4Xes are completely different). It's true, the game left a lot to be desired, and deviated further from the original TA even more than the first game did, but I overall I thought it was pretty solid.

In other words, don't blame SupCom 2 for the failure of the series, if the first game was any good they wouldn't have even needed a sequel. The first game was a disaster, much more so than the second.

From what I read, supcom 2 solved "problems" that fans of the orginal didn't consider problems, including supreme commander's 1's unique resource structure. In other words, supreme commander 2 tried to be more mainstream, and in the process alienated the orginal's fanbase but really didn't attract players who were not a fan of the first one.

By most measures, supcom 2 got worst reception than the first one. Meta critic gives it a 9 point drops from "mainstream" sites, and 21 points from user reviews. But let us disregard reviews, this very game (planetary annihilation) draws homage from supreme commander, not supreme commander 2. Secondary measures: 3 years after supreme commander 1 was released, supreme commander 2 was released. 4 years after supreme commander 2 was released, there is 0 coverage of a supreme commander 3.

From a critical, evolutionary, and commerical standpoint, supreme commander 1 thrashes supreme commander 2.
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Offline WingedKagouti

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #466 on: September 08, 2014, 07:55:12 pm »
Ahhh, I wonder whatever happened to SupCom?  That coulda gone on as a full series.
SupCom2 happened.
As far as I know, Supcom 2 trumped the original in sales by a large margin. It also received very positive reviews in general, including being labeled the co-op game of the year by several notable gaming sites.
If SupCom 2 was such a massive success, we would have heard more from the series. SupCom spawned an expansion with a 4th faction and a sequel. SupCom 2 got a piece of DLC.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #467 on: September 08, 2014, 10:44:31 pm »
I can almost guarantee you that SupCom 2 did better in the market than did the first game. It didn't do spectacularly well mind you, but neither of them did, otherwise Chris Taylor wouldn't be out of a job as a game developer.

I remember hearing something about this on the GPG forums, so I'll go back and ask again. I'm just saying, the first game wasn't really much to praise either.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #468 on: September 08, 2014, 11:01:51 pm »
I can almost guarantee you that SupCom 2 did better in the market than did the first game. It didn't do spectacularly well mind you, but neither of them did, otherwise Chris Taylor wouldn't be out of a job as a game developer.

I remember hearing something about this on the GPG forums, so I'll go back and ask again. I'm just saying, the first game wasn't really much to praise either.

All I shall do is repeat what I said earlier:

Is there a supreme commander 3? Do new games aspire to continue supreme command 2? Do viewers consider Supreme Commander 2 to be a natural evolution of Supreme Commander or Total Annihilation?

Does Planetary Annihilation view Supreme Commander 2 a good model to follow?

If Supreme Commander 1 was bad , there would be no 2. Planetary Annihilation wouldn't mention them, either.  You don't make sequels to games which don't make money, and you certainly don't make kickstarters about them.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #469 on: September 08, 2014, 11:21:46 pm »
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All I shall do is repeat what I said earlier:

Is there a supreme commander 3?
This is a bad argument. This argument implies that any game which never received a sequel, or a second sequel, are automatically bad games for that reason. There are hundreds of a reasons a good game could have never received a sequel, and if you want to argue that every game that didn't sucks by proxy, you are, by definition, saying that most games suck.

I could just as easily turn the argument around and say that a game which receives a sequel so soon after the release of the first is proof that the first game was awful and needed to be revamped.

Games like DotA and Starcraft 1 which receive sequels 15+ years after they were made do it because the software they use was antiquated and created for a different time. There's really no excuse for making a sequel within a few years of the original unless the game is a flop...

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Does Planetary Annihilation view Supreme Commander 2 a good model to follow?
Another fallacy. The developers are constantly talking about making a sequel to Total Annihilation, not Supreme Commander. Total Annihilation is the standard by which the bar is set, not SC. The fact that Supreme Commander had so much in common with TA is only proof that TA was a great game, not vice versa. Maybe you haven't noticed, but it's called "Planetary Annihilation" not "Planetary Commander".

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If Supreme Commander 1 was bad , there would be no 2.
Just horrible argument. HORRIBLE. Left 4 Dead 1 left a lot to be desired (bad), Diablo 1 was okay but had a lot of room for improvement. I could give you dozens of examples of games in which the sequel fixed the problems with the first game. Hell, Arcen has done it. Your argument just fails on so many levels, I don't even know why I'm still addressing it.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 11:28:51 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #470 on: September 08, 2014, 11:32:22 pm »
There's really no excuse for making a sequel within a few years of the original unless the game is a flop...

That is some really serious business logic, making a sequel because the orginal is a flop...

Can you give, using buisness logic, a reason why a flop gets a sequel? Why a company would invest more risk, time, and resources toward a failure whose value is based upon "you enjoyed the first product, you will enjoy the sequel"?

I'm not having to prove the counter here, that a good game needs a sequel. I'm only saying that a business failure does not get a sequel.


Not all good games get a sequel. But almost all sequels need a good base game, or do you have an example where this isn't objective true?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 12:03:55 am by chemical_art »
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #471 on: September 08, 2014, 11:37:37 pm »
Another fallacy. The developers are constantly talking about making a sequel to Total Annihilation, not Supreme Commander. Total Annihilation is the standard by which the bar is set, not SC. The fact that Supreme Commander had so much in common with TA is only proof that TA was a great game, not vice versa. Maybe you haven't noticed, but it's called "Planetary Annihilation" not "Planetary Commander".

From the ubernet/ pa page:

"Built by the same engineers who built the Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander rendering engines."

If Supreme Commander was really so bad, would they mention it on their front page? Would they mention Supreme Commander 4 times on their kickstarter page, every time they mentioned Total Annihilation?
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #472 on: September 08, 2014, 11:45:10 pm »
Just horrible argument. HORRIBLE. Left 4 Dead 1 left a lot to be desired (bad), Diablo 1 was okay but had a lot of room for improvement. I could give you dozens of examples of games in which the sequel fixed the problems with the first game. Hell, Arcen has done it. Your argument just fails on so many levels, I don't even know why I'm still addressing it.


Give me ONE example where an Arcen title fundamentally changed a base game not because they viewed it as an error. The closest was A Valley Without Wind. And guess what? That game was free if you paid for the first game. It was in practice a free uber DLC. They added the "2" because it was not compatible with "1" and even they said it was done as a courtesy for the fans of 1.

DLC is NOT a sequel, and if you think it is, you are the one failing, and I feel sorry for you, I'm not so arrogant to address it. A sequel is a whole new game, otherwise you would have to pay for game 1 to pay game 2. But it isn't.

You still have failed to address why, if sequels are so...natural? Then why is there none for Supreme Commander 3? If everyone does it, why has this game not? It must be especially bad if everyone does it, but Suprmeme Commander 2 did not generate a sequel, nor new content.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 12:07:18 am by chemical_art »
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #473 on: September 09, 2014, 02:35:09 am »
Just horrible argument. HORRIBLE. Left 4 Dead 1 left a lot to be desired (bad), Diablo 1 was okay but had a lot of room for improvement. I could give you dozens of examples of games in which the sequel fixed the problems with the first game. Hell, Arcen has done it. Your argument just fails on so many levels, I don't even know why I'm still addressing it.

L4D1 wasn't great but it was still successful and popular. Diablo 1, same thing. They weren't given pity sequels to make them better, they had sales to back them up AFAIK. Though granted, Valve does things its own way so L4D2 might have been made regardless. Supreme Commander has a very potent modding scene and plenty of players still in it to this day. Checking Steam stats, both Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance and Supreme Commander 2 have around the same number of people playing either regularly. (200 give or take 10 daily). That doesn't count non-Steam versions but it's still a good stat. So, if SupCom1 Expansion was so bad, why do people continue playing it?

As far as why SupCom 3 didn't happen, the RTS market fell off HARD around the time of SupCom 2 and continues to be a fairly stagnant genre. For the most part, Real-Time-Strategy games aren't a selling market. Obviously, we have exceptions that are doing well but it isn't as popular as the DOTA/MOBA scene, Grand Strategy/4X/Turn-based or the FPS market. I mean, the most notable AAA game produced recently was Company of Heroes 2 from a now dead publisher. I'm curious to see how well PA does but I guess getting hard sales figures will take a long time unless Uber is an open company in this regard.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #474 on: September 09, 2014, 05:14:08 am »
Quote
So, if SupCom1 Expansion was so bad, why do people continue playing it?
I never said SupCom 1 was bad (or if I implied that I apologize). Simply that it wasn't the savior of the RTS genre or any kind of revolutionary game, and had just as much to do with the failures of the series as did the second game. It had its own set of problems. The second attempted to address those problems, and did in some ways, but also created other problems in the process.

Chemical Art just doesn't seem to understand Chris Taylor's business model or way of doing things, because creating a sequel for a failed (or at least below expectations game) is basically something he has a history of doing. It's one of the reasons he no longer develops games to my knowledge.

x4000 has already admitted that it was a business mistake to offer AVWW2 as a free DLC to the purchasers of the original game. However, I don't think anybody is under the illusion that Arcen was happy with how the first game was received, and that the second game wasn't in direct response to that.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #475 on: September 09, 2014, 09:09:30 am »
I dunno if we need to keep debating Supcom 1 vs 2, but if you're having fun with that then have at it ;)

FWIW, if AVWW1 had accomplished our goals for it we would not have made Valley2 so soon after.  Honestly Valley2 didn't accomplish those goals either, though each game has provided a lot of fun for some number of folks so I'm glad we made them.

That aside, I don't think it necessarily follows that "Game X got a sequel 2 years later" means "Game X was fundamentally flawed" or whatever.  That's a possibility, but overall it's just more complex than that.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #476 on: September 09, 2014, 09:16:45 am »
Before anyone starts screaming at one another: I think it's worth keeping in mind with all of this that there's plenty that's REALLY subjective.


The whole TA vs SupCom thing, for instance.

There's a couple of things to keep in mind with that.

For alot of people, SupCom WAS revolutionary.  REALLY revolutionary.   Now, the arguement I'm seeing is "No it isnt, TA had already done this stuff", but there's one really major factor that needs to be kept in mind:  Time.   TA was released back in 1997.  Supcom was in 2007.  That's an entire 10 years difference.... and in this industry, that's a *very* long time.  And you know how PC gamers often are... if it's old, either A: it's not relevant to them any more, or B: they have no idea it exists.  So for many, SupCom comes along and is suddenly doing things that the RTS genre as a whole just was not doing at all (and the genre overall seemed to have alot of games in it back then).   Hell, *I* hadnt ever heard of TA.  All I knew was suddenly here was this RTS that actively avoided pretty much ALL of the problems I'd constantly had with the genre.   I bought it, and I wasnt at all disappointed.  Hell, it's still pretty much THE game of that type that I remember the most fondly.  As far as I'm concerned, the first game to challenge that spot for me that it has is actually AI War, which I only started on very recently.

There were glitches and such with multiplayer, but.... that one is really hard to quantify, in terms of what effect it had on it.  My experience with alot of online games around that time was that ALOT of them could get weird.  Glitchy or laggy or whatever.  Not to mention, there was a large group that bought it just for the singleplayer, which is often pretty unusual with that genre.  That game did it very well, whereas I cannot always say that about most other games in that genre.  Usually, it's a genre that's geared more towards multiplayer for many fans, and that game was a rarity in that regard.  That matches could be REALLY long also furthered this.


Regarding the sequels and such, the high sales of the second game doesnt necessarily have as much impact on the probability of the third game as you might think.  There's LOTS of things that go into the decision-making with such a thing.  Alot of people have this misconception that sales numbers of the previous product are the be-all end-all to this.  It's not.  It's only one of many factors, really.  And that second game had.... issues.  I cannot remember what they were exactly, but the one really major thing I remember about the second one was that it rather lacked impact.  It didn't stay relevant very long once it had released.  And there was something really off about it.... I cannot remember exactly what that was.  Even I, a huge fan of the first, sorta had a "meh" reaction to the second, and I didn't stick with it.  What players think of a game AFTER they buy it is a really huge thing that publishers HAVE to consider, as publishers cannot just rest on their laurels after a given release.  They HAVE to already have started planning for whatever they do next, and a player that got excited for and bought a game but didn't LIKE it (or didn't find enough replay value or something in a game they expected to have alot of) is NOT a happy player, and is much more likely to abandon that developer/publisher than anyone else. Those who simply decided not to buy it, instead of buying it and disliking it, are likely to keep on with that publisher if they already liked some of their stuff in general, instead of abandoning out of anger.   So even a game that sells well can do some nasty damage when considered over time, because it can negatively affect FUTURE sales.  And while I seriously just do not remember the reasons, that game really did just lose it's relevancy really fast, unlike the first.

Also, timeframes for sequels... why am I even seeing that in arguements here?  There's LOTS of examples of it going both ways.  Either games getting a sequel real fast, or taking a zillion years to get one.  There's too many reasons for either to happen, and again, it's not all to do with sales numbers.   And it's worth keeping in mind that yes, expansion packs actually do count here.  On consoles, sequels are a way of giving fans of a game/franchise more of what they want, while generating further money for the developer/publisher.  That's the true point of sequels.... but it's ALSO the true point of expansions.  The fact that PCs make games capable of having expansions means that expansions will typically come first, but it's pretty much the same thing.  A popular-as-heck game will get expansions FAST.  In the console world, this would be a sequel being made, not an expansion.  It's almost a matter of semantics, to a point.  Of course, that's all up to the devs and publisher. There are those that, on PC, will indeed go for a sequel instead of an expansion, even if they're doing it real fast after the previous game. My point being that there's just so much to consider with this aspect of it.... it doesnt really bear arguing over.


Really, NONE of this bears arguing over, if you ask me.  All of this bit with sequels and sales and blah blah blah doesnt have much to do with wether Planetary Annihilation, the focus of this topic, is a good game or not, or any aspects of it, really.  Inspired by TA, maybe.  That's it's connection to this stuff in the past  But does it matter THAT much?  All that matters is the current state of THIS game, I think. 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 09:20:36 am by Misery »

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #477 on: September 09, 2014, 09:44:17 am »
I want to just say that I agree with Misery, if you want to debate finer points of SC/SC2 and sequels then make a topic for that. PA is not SC, and it's NOTHING LIKE SC, it is however made by the people who made the SC1 engine, not by the people who designed the SC races or by the artist who made SC1 or SC2 (as you can clearly tell, PA doesn't have an art-style, it has models textured with flat color textures that have white "grunge" shading at polygon borders, that's so lame and lazy I was tempted to call them out on it on their forum. ;)

If it were anything like SC, it would be a game were turtling is a legitimate option and where APM matters not, but PA does not have shields, it does not have proper tier 3 attack structures. Turtling is not an option because (absurdly) orbital engineers can build teleporters on the ground in less than 1 minute. Meaning there is no way to defend a planet properly.

And worst of all, if you refocus on a planet, all icons blend out on other planets. Meaning unless you fancy a TINY pip you can't even see when something happens on your homeworld. You can't see units in orbital transfers if you are zoomed in (the icons literally don't display). You can not do template builds. For defenses. There is no way to upgrade the commander or to tech up naturally alá SC2.

Worst of all, the lack of shield gens and tier 3 means games are spammy. Spam infinite build order on a factory tier 2 unit, spam spam more spam. And have them fight somewhere. The game ending tier 3 system completely misses from PA.

I am not happy with how this KS turned out to be honest ,/

Ps.: And top it off, instead of using the FANTASTIC flow-pathing from SC2 they made their own that barely works. Units don't move out of the way when a building is queued where they park etc... grml!
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #478 on: September 09, 2014, 10:20:33 am »
SupCom 2 did have wonderful pathing, if anything.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #479 on: September 09, 2014, 10:29:41 am »
SupCom 2 did have wonderful pathing, if anything.
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