Author Topic: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE  (Read 154568 times)

Offline Toranth

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #360 on: March 03, 2014, 05:56:43 am »
In retrospect, I would not have given money for this game due to how money grubbing it seems. No matter what they claim, I feel screwed over paying up front for a game to later see those benefits, with the game far more solidified, for a similar price. Combine that with the pay-to-access features and the whole game just stinks from that standpoint.
Exactly.

And part of the problem was that initial price.  An absurd $90 to get into the alpha!  30-40, I could see being a bit better, maybe.  But 90?  Good grief, no.  Particularly if there's going to be more paid content down the line.  That makes it even more greedy and stupid.
Well, what you've really said is that you don't like Kickstarter.  That's basically how it works:  Line up the fanboys early, charge 'em a premium for something minor (like early access, or a costume), and then sell most-or-all of the bonuses later a slightly more pricey DLC.

Of course, we're all spoiled here by Arcen and that whole "Hey guys, we actually listen to your feedback!" thing, where we get for free the same benefit that PA was selling for $50.

Offline Histidine

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #361 on: March 03, 2014, 07:29:12 am »
Getting your views on what is probably a comparable situation: When TF2 became F2P and all the original buyers got was a lousy halo, was that screwing over said buyers?

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #362 on: March 03, 2014, 08:43:39 am »
Getting your views on what is probably a comparable situation: When TF2 became F2P and all the original buyers got was a lousy halo, was that screwing over said buyers?

I wouldn't really consider the situation that comparable, Team Fortress 2 became free four years after the fact, while PA hasn't been formally released as of yet.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #363 on: March 03, 2014, 09:16:15 am »
Out of curiosity: did any of you think the Kickstarter money would actually completely cover the developer's expenses in developing and promoting PA?  Did they say that it would do so?
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #364 on: March 03, 2014, 09:17:46 am »
Out of curiosity: did any of you think the Kickstarter money would actually completely cover the developer's expenses in developing and promoting PA?  Did they say that it would do so?

What I did not expect was to offer almost the same benefits to later backers then the original ones.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #365 on: March 03, 2014, 09:56:18 am »
In retrospect, I would not have given money for this game due to how money grubbing it seems. No matter what they claim, I feel screwed over paying up front for a game to later see those benefits, with the game far more solidified, for a similar price. Combine that with the pay-to-access features and the whole game just stinks from that standpoint.
Exactly.

And part of the problem was that initial price.  An absurd $90 to get into the alpha!  30-40, I could see being a bit better, maybe.  But 90?  Good grief, no.  Particularly if there's going to be more paid content down the line.  That makes it even more greedy and stupid.
Well, what you've really said is that you don't like Kickstarter.  That's basically how it works:  Line up the fanboys early, charge 'em a premium for something minor (like early access, or a costume), and then sell most-or-all of the bonuses later a slightly more pricey DLC.

Of course, we're all spoiled here by Arcen and that whole "Hey guys, we actually listen to your feedback!" thing, where we get for free the same benefit that PA was selling for $50.

Actually, I do like Kickstarter.  I back things on there frequently, all of which are in-development games that I often then get involved in testing with.  I do alot of testing in general.... gives me something to do with my absurd amount of free time... and I like supporting devs that I think are good at what they do.  KS makes it much easier for me to find the games in question, and then do both.

The difference though is that the prices usually arent bat#(%& insane.   If you look on the Planetery Annihilation KS page, the "get the game when it's done" price is $20.  Just.... 20.   So what was the alpha?  70 freaking dollars more!  That's.... no.   Just no.   Of all of the ones I've seen, not ONE of them has come even remotely close to that level of price increase between "get game when done" and "get to try it early", wether it's beta or alpha.  In addition, there wasnt exactly a whole lot else given with that monstrous price.  Two exclusive "commanders"  (and how much THIS means is debatable... the devs have stated during their streams that they dont intend on having the different commanders have different special abilities) and alpha access (in other words, the most hyper-buggy and unknown version of the game), and finally the soundtrack.... that's it.

Typically, a $90 price point gives you WAY more than that, because most devs acknowledge that yeah, this is bloody expensive as all hell (and in this economy, too...), and yeah, the privilege of trying the game early is tempered by the realities of alpha/beta testing, which could include hilarious fun things like the game not working for you for quite some time after you get it, until the devs reach whatever point they need to in order to fix the issue.  Among a bazillion other possibilities, particularly in alpha as compared to beta.

Now, if part of the reasoning is something along the lines of "Well, if we DONT do this, we wont be able to cover our expenses!" then you need to increase the BASE price of the game, not just make one or both of the testing options more absurd.  This likely would have been alot more acceptable to people.  A higher base price, and then a dramatically lower amount of difference between that and the test options wouldnt have been nearly as difficult to afford, wouldnt seem as greedy, and it makes those buying into it feel like they have more options.  "Do I want to pay an extra $20 to jump into testing right now?" is alot more of a tempting question than "Hmm, do I want to pay an extra $70 to test it right now?".  And then of course you scale up from there:  "Well, if you pay *40* more to jump into testing instead of just 20, we're going to give you all these cool things with it!"  Give players options that ENTICE them to pay you and get them to WANT to pay you, options that make them feel like they're really getting a pretty cool deal, even if it costs a little more.  Not options that JUST seem super-pricey to help them bug test a game that nobody really knows much about yet.  Heck, if beta is at 40 with this one, a more reasonable price for alpha might have been 50 or 55.  "Just 10-15 more and you get to play it even earlier!" is much better than "more than quadruple the base price and you get to play it even earlier! It's only 50 more than beta (a number which in and of itself is more than twice the base cost), come on, that's nothing!"

That people were pretty ticked off about all this is reasonable... it seriously does seem to be an idea born of pure greed, regardless of the actual reasons behind it (which is ANOTHER thing they're supposed to consider, is the consumer's probable perceptions of whatever they decide to do in terms of pricing and marketing).  In addition, those people that are permanently pushed away by what they perceive as greedy are now handing them ZERO dollars.... instead of just choosing a lower option and paying a bit less.  That ALOT of people were ticked about this is also a sign that, yeah, something really WAS wrong here, regardless of how some might try to reason it out.


They end up doing pretty well anyway because the game itself is seriously THAT promising... but there's still lots of derp that happened here.

Quote
Out of curiosity: did any of you think the Kickstarter money would actually completely cover the developer's expenses in developing and promoting PA?  Did they say that it would do so?

I personally havent heard anything from them on this, but my own natural assumption would be that no, it wouldnt.  All sorts of reasons for that, beyond just my default negative views on everything.


And on that note, to clarify a bit:  I dont believe that there was anything wrong with the total amount overall that they were hoping to get.  What was wrong was the way they went about trying to get it, and that's the bit that mattered enough to many to push them away from it forever.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 09:59:44 am by Misery »

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #366 on: March 03, 2014, 11:10:47 am »
Then again, why are people so greviously horny on getting in on an alpha? A state of the game where it's, at best, barely playable? Personally, I've stopped with all alpha's and beta's simply because I find myself losing the interest when there are so many bugs and unfinished features.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #367 on: March 03, 2014, 08:16:40 pm »
Then again, why are people so greviously horny on getting in on an alpha? A state of the game where it's, at best, barely playable? Personally, I've stopped with all alpha's and beta's simply because I find myself losing the interest when there are so many bugs and unfinished features.


Yeah, I wondered that as well, with this one.  Typically it doesnt happen like that, yeah?

Though, I suppose it was probably things like the connection between this project and other games, like Total Annihilation, Command & Conquer, Supreme Commander and Demigod.... all of which lead up to one heck of a pedigree as far as I'm concerned, in terms of their overall development team.  And as these guys say on their site, the RTS genre lately has been.... lacking.  It really isnt a very big genre right now, and for alot of players it just consists of SC2..... and according to people I know that are into that alot, even some of the pros are now starting to lose faith in that one due to major balance issues that Blizzard isnt fixing.  So that's not good.

And heck, the game even just LOOKS SupCom-ish.  That was what grabbed me initially and made me look into it more.

And yeah, I know obviously SC2 isnt REALLY the only RTS around right now... I think everyone in the group here can think of at least one other good one, yeah?.... but as a genre that used to be so big, it has definitely fallen quite a long way, and there just arent that many different good ones to choose from.


So that's my theory anyway.  A game with extreme promise in a genre that could seem to need a bit of life support at times... yeah, it's gonna attract people to it, who want to try it RIGHT THE HECK NOW even despite the problems that alpha/beta mean for them.


Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #368 on: March 03, 2014, 09:22:35 pm »
Competitively there really are only one around and that's Starcraft 2. For funsies though? I prefer Kohan: Ahriman's Gift, or Forged Alliance, personally.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #369 on: March 07, 2014, 07:30:13 am »
The purpose of Kickstarter is to support the game's development.. if you pay more than the base price it's like donating. People choose to pay 90$ to get into the alpha and then complain when the price drops. Well herp a derp didn't see that one coming. If you thought the alpha access is worth the extra 70$ then what's the problem. I mean you wouldn't have paid the extra 70$ if you didn't think it it would be worth it.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #370 on: March 07, 2014, 09:22:48 pm »
The purpose of Kickstarter is to support the game's development.. if you pay more than the base price it's like donating. People choose to pay 90$ to get into the alpha and then complain when the price drops. Well herp a derp didn't see that one coming. If you thought the alpha access is worth the extra 70$ then what's the problem. I mean you wouldn't have paid the extra 70$ if you didn't think it it would be worth it.


That.... wasnt the problem, actually.  Where are you getting this from?

The problem is that the bar was set WAY too high, at a level well beyond what most people could afford, particularly with the economy being what it is.  People wanted to try out this game and see if it was what they were hoping, maybe do some testing.... but even the BASE price, for alpha + nothing else, was MORE THAN FOUR TIMES THE BASE PRICE OF THE GAME.  That's not just bad, that's downright absurd.  For a totally untested game with no way to know if it's going to be even CLOSE to living up to the hype?  No.   It REEKED of greed, pure and simple, and some started hating the devs for it, and I dont blame them for a second.  Cant say I like the guys myself either.

And YES, I know full bloody well how Kickstarter works.  Yes, I know that you generally pay more than the base price of the game to enter the testing phases.... and that's fine.  There's nothing wrong with that, it's a good practice.  But outright MULTIPLYING the price by 4?  No.  Just no.  You dont do that.  You might have, say, a $30 game, that goes up to $40 or $45 for the alpha/beta entry cost during kickstarter.  THAT price, that makes more sense, and means that more people have the OPTION of actually choosing it, rather than looking at it and instantly going "What?!? There's no WAY I could afford that, that's crazy!  For an unfinished game?!?" which is basically the reaction that many had for this game.

As for the price lowering later?  I, frankly, dont give a damn or see it as a "problem".  Never did.  Oh, I had heard that some of the early backers were bothered by it, but.... too bad.   They already have the damn game, so I dont understand (or care about) that complaint.  It isnt the main issue.

But those that hated the insane starting price, and the still-pretty-bad current price, and the way that the devs are dealing with pricing in general?  Yeah.... I can understand THEM.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 09:31:20 pm by Misery »

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #371 on: March 07, 2014, 10:19:17 pm »
The purpose of Kickstarter is to support the game's development.. if you pay more than the base price it's like donating. People choose to pay 90$ to get into the alpha and then complain when the price drops. Well herp a derp didn't see that one coming. If you thought the alpha access is worth the extra 70$ then what's the problem. I mean you wouldn't have paid the extra 70$ if you didn't think it it would be worth it.


That.... wasnt the problem, actually.  Where are you getting this from?

The problem is that the bar was set WAY too high, at a level well beyond what most people could afford, particularly with the economy being what it is.  People wanted to try out this game and see if it was what they were hoping, maybe do some testing.... but even the BASE price, for alpha + nothing else, was MORE THAN FOUR TIMES THE BASE PRICE OF THE GAME.  That's not just bad, that's downright absurd.


Help me understand better. Are you saying that putting a high price on the alpha was inappropriate because of the state of the game? There are lots of kickstarters out there which charge obscene prices for different tiers. I would be more upset about the gamma phase, given that phase is completely bogus.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #372 on: March 07, 2014, 11:59:41 pm »
I would be more upset about the gamma phase, given that phase is completely bogus.
Out of curiosity, what specifically is bogus about it?  Or, at least, what's harmfully bogus about calling it a gamma instead of a beta?

It's not release-ready yet, as they lack major promised features (galactic war), but the core game itself is quite a bit more playable than many betas I've seen.  At least from the recorded game videos (Zaphod's on youtube) I've watched, which perhaps is not the best indicator.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #373 on: March 08, 2014, 02:54:12 am »
I would be more upset about the gamma phase, given that phase is completely bogus.
Out of curiosity, what specifically is bogus about it?  Or, at least, what's harmfully bogus about calling it a gamma instead of a beta?

It's not release-ready yet, as they lack major promised features (galactic war), but the core game itself is quite a bit more playable than many betas I've seen.  At least from the recorded game videos (Zaphod's on youtube) I've watched, which perhaps is not the best indicator.

As has been been pointed out elsewhere, it is a matter of perception. And perception equals reality, at least it is 9/10ths of reality. Releasing a version of a game between between beta and release is almost indistinguishable from "early-access" which in itself a can of words. It is a cluster-fudge of shades of grey, which combined seem to make things confusing. And when things are confusing, it is a lot more likely for the public to assume it is bad unless it is explained why it is good (because in general, companies confuse bad things to hide it)

In other words, if the game is not a beta, and you are paying extra to access it, in the modern equivalent of "early-access". Why not call it what it is in the modern sense? Using out-dated terms confuses, which tends to hinder, and not help, perception.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Total Annihilation IN SPACE
« Reply #374 on: March 08, 2014, 06:13:17 am »
The purpose of Kickstarter is to support the game's development.. if you pay more than the base price it's like donating. People choose to pay 90$ to get into the alpha and then complain when the price drops. Well herp a derp didn't see that one coming. If you thought the alpha access is worth the extra 70$ then what's the problem. I mean you wouldn't have paid the extra 70$ if you didn't think it it would be worth it.


That.... wasnt the problem, actually.  Where are you getting this from?

The problem is that the bar was set WAY too high, at a level well beyond what most people could afford, particularly with the economy being what it is.  People wanted to try out this game and see if it was what they were hoping, maybe do some testing.... but even the BASE price, for alpha + nothing else, was MORE THAN FOUR TIMES THE BASE PRICE OF THE GAME.  That's not just bad, that's downright absurd.


Help me understand better. Are you saying that putting a high price on the alpha was inappropriate because of the state of the game? There are lots of kickstarters out there which charge obscene prices for different tiers. I would be more upset about the gamma phase, given that phase is completely bogus.

It's the high price on the alpha when put in comparison to the BASE price of the game itself.  It's hard to say what the ACTUAL exact price of the game itself is going to be....  It might be 20, 30, or 40, I'm seeing LOTS of conflicting info suddenly (sigh).... But put that next to a price of 90 for the alpha.... at *best* (as I'll assume 40 for now), you are paying MORE than DOUBLE the price of the normal game to assist them in the testing of a game you know squat about, other than what they've said about it.  This, as if pricing a single game at $90 isnt insane enough.... they're pricing a single EXTREMELY NOT AT ALL FINISHED game at 90.  In a state where they get to say "Oh, sorry, you cant complain.... this is an alpha!" when people complain about any bugs.

I know that they arent the only ones making bloody stupid pricing decisions.  Obviously, it sure as heck isnt only projects in Kickstarter that do that.... I'm sure we can all think of a pile of different fully released games (often of the F2P type) that use really stupid or just really greedy/nasty/customer-screwing price models. 

And while I back Kickstarters related to game development frequently, the rule for me is that the pricing has to A: make sense, and B: not be asshattish, which is a term I made up just now, because I can.   And this game stands as one of the most overblown examples of bad pricing schemes (where "bad" can have a variety of meanings) that I've run into in quite awhile.  The fact that the game is as well-known as it is just makes it that much worse.  And their use of "Well we dont want to screw over our KS backers!" to placate some customers lately makes it even more devious; they can say this and SOUND considerate while not actually CHANGING anything whatsoever about the original screw-over. 

According to others though, I hear there's apparantly some nasty DLC/IAP/whatever-you-want-to-call-it sorts of pricing problems that may be coming along with the finished game as well?  This one I cant confirm and dont care enough about to look into it.... it's a mere rumor as far as I'm concerned.... but if it IS true (and yeah, at this point I wouldnt at all be surprised) that's even worse.


As it is, I ended up making the decision to not buy the bloody thing.  Normally I'm a total impulse buyer without any practical reason to NOT buy stuff like this when I want it, but there's just been too much in the way of screwy crap with this one, and in the end I'd prefer to just not support this and launch dollars at something else instead. 


EDIT:


As has been been pointed out elsewhere, it is a matter of perception. And perception equals reality, at least it is 9/10ths of reality. Releasing a version of a game between between beta and release is almost indistinguishable from "early-access" which in itself a can of words. It is a cluster-fudge of shades of grey, which combined seem to make things confusing. And when things are confusing, it is a lot more likely for the public to assume it is bad unless it is explained why it is good (because in general, companies confuse bad things to hide it)

In other words, if the game is not a beta, and you are paying extra to access it, in the modern equivalent of "early-access". Why not call it what it is in the modern sense? Using out-dated terms confuses, which tends to hinder, and not help, perception.

Agreed with this bit for the most part as well. 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 06:39:48 am by Misery »