Author Topic: Planetary Annihilation: Titans  (Read 8653 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« on: August 20, 2015, 11:46:56 am »
I know we have a PA thread already, but it probably needs to die. It's 40 pages long, and was created when the game's Kickstarter was announced over 2 years ago. 40 pages of obfuscation prevent any kind of constructive discussion for a game which, at this point (in my experience), is vastly different than what it was on its official release.

I'm just going to go ahead and treat this like a new game, because, for Kickstarter supporters at least, it pretty much is. There are vast improvements over the original formula, and I think this iteration even surpasses all the goals and promises they made in Kickstarter for us originally.

I'll split my new opinions about the game into 3 sections:

1. Advantages over other modern RTS games.

-Planetary battlefield: Maps are solar systems, not flat squares.

-Land, sea, air, and space: Most RTS games do not even include sea as a potential option. Planetary Annihilation has both sea and space, which in my opinion diversifies its potential options vastly. From what I can tell so far, they've all been done rather well in addition (which certainly wasn't the case on launch).

-Incredible scale: I don't think there's another RTS which can match the sheer scale of thousands of units duking it out with one another across not multiple fronts, but multiple planets. The potential strategy and nuance of just this game mechanic alone, when done correctly, is mind-boggling. Now with Titans and space-class Battleships, the scale of the game grows by an order of magnitude.

-Use solar bodies as weapons: I feel this is self-explanatory, but in any case, it works much, much more smoothly now than it did at release. Now it's practically like it was in the trailer.

-Macro-based gaming: The UI and game-mechanics have been simplified to the point that the game can truly be called macro-based in my opinion. Many things have been done to either reduce or eliminate micromanagement entirely such as planetary patrol patterns, galaxy-wide announcements, picture-in-picture sequences of important events, automated build queues, streamlined pathing mechanics, "construct in this area" mechanics, and just the fact that the game's overall scale calls the player to be more acquiescent to the totality of their plan, instead of laser focused on a single battle where fast clicking makes a huge difference.

2. Advantages over PA on launch:

-Vastly better UI system: Not much to say about this, you just have to try it yourself. I've been very impressed with these changes. A game of this scale needs good UI and I feel they've finally succeeded in this regard.

-Many bugs crushed: Pathing is much better, superweapons work correctly now (and are awesome), less weird bugs and hiccups in general. There's also a lot less lag, from what I can tell, than there was originally.

-Graphic improvements: This probably isn't a huge deal to everybody, but things have definitely improved in this regard. Units and projectiles are more easily identified and appreciated than before, making it easier to tell what's going on.

-Titans: For me, Experimental Class units were always an essentially part of what made Total Annihilation what it was, and even the Supreme Commander games realized this quite nicely. Having extremely expensive but massively powerful monsters which can leave swathes of destruction through enemy armies and bases causes what can only be known as well...total annihilation. Finally PA can boast the same.

-Space fleshed out: A lot of the complaints of the game on release revolved around objects in space (no pun intended). Indeed, space combat felt a little weird, uninspired, buggy, and ultimately soulless. While it could still use a lot of work (hell, space combat could theoretically become as nuanced and complex as ground combat), I feel that it is in a much better, more reasonable place now. The mechanics actually are fun and make sense, and do their ultimate job of allowing the player to easily travel from planet to planet.

3. Cons, or problems still with the game as a whole:

I should probably preface this section by stating that no game is perfect. Every RTS has its own problems and shortcomings, simply by virtue of its own design philosophy. You can't accomplish everything. For example, let's look at RTS-giant Eugen Systems, most well-known for their famous Wargame series. Part of what made the Wargame series so popular and well-received is that it was so realistic and happened on such an unprecedented scale. However, given the game's beautiful graphics and amazingly cool units, many people complained that the generally zoomed-out scale of the titles ruined the enjoyment. What's the point of having beautiful graphics and models of real-life tanks and aircraft if you can barely see them fight?

So now with their game Act of Aggression, they've zoomed the game in and toned down the scale quite considerably as compared to what existed in their Wargame series. Also, given that it is meant to replicate the model of the old C&C style game, realism has taken a backseat to laser weapons, orbital cannons, and a rock-paper-scissors combat style.

So naturally, people are now complaining that the game is too zoomed-in and unrealistic for them to enjoy. As a developer, these kinds of decisions have to be made. You simply can't please everybody, your main goal is to impress your target audience. A lot of the people I've met just really aren't that interested in the kind of game that Planetary Annihilation was even meant to be. That's why I tend to read all positive and negative reviews of the game with a grain of salt.

Having said that...

-One faction/race: This is probably my biggest beef with the game, but I suppose I can understand why it was done. With the scale of the game being so massive and so much more ambitious than anything that has ever been done before, I think most of the effort of the limited indie team went to the design of the planets and macro-based elements of the game. And it shows, because even with so much effort being put into this aspect of the game alone, it was far from finished and is still being polished a year after release. I just think they were stretched too thin to create and balance several races worth of units on top of that. Balancing the units already in the game (air, land, sea, space) has already been enough of a challenge for them. So while it's a little disappointing, I understand the decision. I also see some of the benefits of it, namely that the game is balanced pretty well in the regard that everybody has access to the same units, and the "overpowered race meta" isn't constantly shifting from month to month as it is in games like Starcraft 2.

-Some bugs still exist: I haven't experienced many, but there are some. However, it seems a lot of players are getting random crashes which must be incredibly frustrating. I'm sure the major ones will be fixed in the next patch.

-Attention as a resource: A lot of players are calling attention the third resource of the game. For a lot of people, this "mechanic" is just overwhelming. Having to focus and plan across what effectively amounts to an entire solar system can be incredibly taxing on the mind. It can get confusing, frustrating, and even mentally painful over time. For people looking for a relaxing experience, or who are used to the traditional RTS style, this can definitely be a downside.

-Micromanagement still important: Unfortunately there just aren't a lot of ways around this. They've done everything they can to make the game more macro-based, but micro still plays a huge part, like in every other RTS game ever made (that I know of). Having said that, I still think it's one of the least micro-intensive games on the market right now.

-Titan as a standalone expansion instead of free DLC: This decision has caused what can only be described as absolute rage throughout the Steam community. Even though the Kickstarter backers get it for free, the people who bought the original game on Steam after KS have to pay an extra $13 for the expansion. Since many people see Titans as a more polished, 'what the game should have been on release', this is obviously causing massive anger and indignation. Personally, I don't see it that way. All of the polishes that Titan got were also added to the original game absolutely free. What a previous buyer is paying for are the 21 new units, new game modes, and of course the Titans. $13 seems reasonable for this much content, and I've certainly seen DLC priced much HIGHER for much less (hello EA -_-).

Perhaps Uberent could have released Titans free to every PA buyer, but then how would they continue to run their business? I remember Arcen doing a similar thing with AVWW 2, and Chris later blatantly admitted that giving all AVWW 1 purchasers a free copy of the second game was a massive financial mistake that he regretted. I think at that time the entire company was in danger of collapsing. Sure, some people can say things like, "How Uberent makes their money isn't our problem." And that's true, but it is THEIR problem. And they are people with families, children, and lives of their own. There was an attempt to Kickstart 'Human Resources', a game which could have generated new revenue for them while allowing them to bypass a lot of the work they originally needed to create the PA engine, and get right into production. However, for good reason, this attempt failed, and so obviously they needed another plan to keep the company going. I mean it's not rocket science people, money doesn't grow on trees. I don't feel that what they have done with Titans is unfair, but even if it were, I don't see a lot of better options. Going the way that Arcen did with AVWW would have been a massive mistake.

Final conclusion:

Even with its rocky road and many questionable PR decisions, I believe that PA Titans has accomplished everything that was promised at Kickstarter and more. It stands as a shining pinnacle of true innovation and massive destruction of the sort that is only available to the RTS genre, and furthermore what makes it the best genre in my opinion. If you have been on the fence about this game in the past, I recommend giving Titans a try.








« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 11:54:34 am by Wingflier »
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2015, 01:04:55 pm »
Hm. You make it sound almost interesting.
Care to tell us some more about the Space Combat?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2015, 02:09:58 pm »
Hm. You make it sound almost interesting.
Care to tell us some more about the Space Combat?
Space and the space aspect of the game in general is truly meant only as a complement to the planetary game.

Space tech exists primary as a means of global control and dominance (like air would be in many other RTS games on a regular sized map, though air dominance in this game is similarly important as well, but I digress). The person or people who can control the spherical space around the planet can actively prevent probes or transports from leaving or entering the world, which makes it much harder for the enemy to reinforce or retreat, or simply to expand to new worlds. At the same time, controlling space allows you to expand, retreat, and enter/leave that planet at your leisure. Since most games have multiple planets and/or moons, the importance of this achievement can not be understated.

Space battles operate on a planet-by-planet basis. There are no battles in empty space, so what it really involves is global control.

Controlling space also gives the rather luxurious option of satellite coverage, which is much more effective and practical than typical ground radar systems, which you can also build. A player who has satellites patrolling around an entire world will be able to see almost everything that is going on both around and on that planet, at all times. This is obviously a massive boon.

In addition to that, weapons can be built from space to fire at the earth, allowing additional tactical options for a commander who has achieved this dominance.

Space combat itself is relatively simple but it can get somewhat nuanced. One achieves spacefaring status by constructing a land-based orbital launcher, from there, all the basic space probes, transports, satellites, constructors, and fighters can be built. From there, a constructor can build an orbital factory which opens more advanced tech units, including the battleship.

There are 4 ways to fight for space dominance: The orbital fighters, which are probably the cheapest and most effective option, and are also mobile which is nice. The orbital defense station, which is stationary area defense platform that fires at both space and ground units, effectively denying the area to both types of threats. The Umbrella, which is an ground-based anti-space defense (think of an ion cannon on Hoth in Star Wars) that fires at anybody above itself. Then of course the space battleships which are beefy and do reasonable damage to all types of units, whether they be land, air, or space-based.

Of course it can get even more nuanced because you have Titans now that will open teleports above the earth, allowing your units to flood through in an endless swarm, while also being a formidable warship in itself, but that's another matter.


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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2015, 06:17:53 pm »
My biggest beef with Titans is that it's basically the game that was promised and never delivered in the first place. PA was a clearly rushed title from Uber, released in a beta state, so that they could start a new Kickstarter rather than make sure PA was released in a good state. They got burned hard for that mistake. But apparently not hard enough because here we are again. Now, they're making a whole new mistake. They go and expect everyone to pay an additional $40 for a clearly sub-par expansion and/or Game of the Year edition. I get that it's on a discount and that backers get it for free, that doesn't excuse that they're still asking everyone else $40 on top of the $30-60 they asked for in the first place. I can only be burned so many times on this.

Additionally: It splits up the playerbase. Well done on that idea. /not.

Between the broken balance, the incomplete/missing features on release and the woeful disregard for their customers, it's really hard not to have anything but contempt for Uber Entertainment. Are they as bad as EA? No. But then I boycotted EA years ago and haven't looked back since. I was willing to forgive Uber over the initial state of PA but time and after time Uber continues to blunder around, being run by executives clearly not listening to their developers. Yes, they're a business. I don't disagree that they should get money. But they ignore their own history and what other developers are doing in the RTS genre and just plowing forward, ignoring everyone else but themselves. Making mistakes that shouldn't be made in 20-freaking-15.

I have more thoughts but give me some time to simmer down....
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2015, 08:03:45 pm »
Quote
My biggest beef with Titans is that it's basically the game that was promised and never delivered in the first place. PA was a clearly rushed title from Uber, released in a beta state, so that they could start a new Kickstarter rather than make sure PA was released in a good state.
I try to look at it from their perspective if possible.

Chances are they were forced to release earlier than they would have liked because of money issues. Even though the Kickstarter heralded over a million dollars, that doesn't go very far when you have a company of 20 people, building expenses, and all the other heavy costs associated with developing a game. There's a reason why designers are known to sell their souls to companies like EA, because for all its problems, having money is nice.

Part of the reason they wanted to fund Human Resources was not only to create that game, but also to cover the ongoing costs of improving the one they had already created. You'll notice that the KS goals of Human Resources were much, much higher than they were for PA, probably because they realized now how much making a game of the scale they had just made would cost AND they probably needed even more than that just to keep the company going.

Well obviously, that strategy was a failure.

So how many options did they have left? Planetary Annihilation received terrible reviews when it was released, so they needed to do something to change popular opinion (or at least critic consensus) about that game if they wanted to keep using *it* as a source of revenue. So far, aside from the non-KS buyers, that plan has been successful. The game is in a much better, more polished state now than it was on release, and many popular sites are reviewing it with that acknowledgement.

They could have released the new expansion for free to everybody who bought the game (KS or no), but then how do they make any money? We've already seen how that turns out.

I don't deny that Uberent has made some massive mistakes and PR failures, but most of it comes from mishandling their money in my opinion. That is VERY common with struggling indie companies. Given the situations they have found themselves in, I'm not sure how else it could have been handled.

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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2015, 08:16:42 pm »
Here's one way I could have done this:

A lot of the UI changes, balance changes and other miscellaneous stuff could have been handled in a free update (name it GIGANTIC-AWESOMENESS update) and then you release the new units and maps as a DLC. Will that sell for $40? No, but then this expandalone probably won't sell all that well either for that price point. Then, rebrand Planetary Annihilation as "Game of the Year" edition or....2.0 or...something markety that's been established already. That's just a few ways they could have made this not become a mess, but now it's a giant PR mess on top of several giant PR messes.

I can sympathize with Uber being in a tough situation money wise. They were one of the first Kickstarters treading new ground and thankfully, most new Kickstarters have learned from their mistakes. But they still could have handled a lot of these situations a whole lot better. And frankly, there wasn't any reason to release PA. There's a few devs that are concurrently running multiple early access games and seem to be holding up just fine. (Double Fine being the best example though they mishandled things as well...so...maybe not the greatest example) Sure, they would have gotten some flack for running another Kickstarter but I highly doubt it would have gotten nearly as much flak as it had and quite possibly might have been funded. But I can't say that with absolute certainty. For all I know, it could have been 10X as worse a reaction. But, releasing a poor game is by far more damaging to your brand and company image than releasing a game late.
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2015, 02:07:11 am »
About the money, I got the expansion game for free. Maybe because I kickstarted it ?

So I'm not sure about the whole "they're trying to rip off whatever". My biggest problem with that game is that they was no automation at all when I last started it. So I reviewed it as a big pile of crap. Because if you have to manage everything on multiple planets down to select every single of your harversters to upgrade them one by one while there could be a dozen planets and so on....

And the second part is the game itself. All those micro for absolutely nothing because you get an asteroid / invasion / other on your head and the hours you spent vanished. There are a lot of ways to make all of this go away. Like, having the builders completely automated (so you don't have to tell every f***** builder what to do). Creating "zones" rather than creating buidings directly. Removing the whole part about upgrading per building and make it empire wide (like harvesters in AI war). But no, that's too good for players...

Also, 3 tiers of buildings ? + the default one last time I checked. I mean, doing all that "work" of rebuidling everything 3 times over per game. GAAAAAAARRRRHHHHHHHHH.

All they did is take TA (where automation was already needed) and multiplied the map size by too much, and ended up stating "hey that's the best game ever". It was clearly a noobie design mistake of the direst order, sheer stupidity and complete lack of brain usage.

PS : I restarted with the new game and there is no changes. All of that stupid micro is still there. I don't even care about balance or bugs. It's just a design failure from the get go.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 02:11:05 am by kasnavada »

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2015, 08:58:03 am »
I appreciate all the updates and fixes, but what boggles me is why it's all wrapped up in a new game. Instead, all those fixes should've been funneled into the base game and the new game mode, units and such been sold as a lower priced DLC. Shelling out $40 for what is essentially a glorified patch is going to piss off a LOT of people. It feels like Cities XL all over again.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2015, 10:17:48 am »
I appreciate all the updates and fixes, but what boggles me is why it's all wrapped up in a new game. Instead, all those fixes should've been funneled into the base game and the new game mode, units and such been sold as a lower priced DLC. Shelling out $40 for what is essentially a glorified patch is going to piss off a LOT of people. It feels like Cities XL all over again.
It's not a $40 patch. For Kickstarter supporters it's free, and for people who already bought the game it's essentially a $13 DLC, which means it's basically exactly what you're saying they should do.

All of the fixes WERE funneled into the main game mode. So if you own the game, you can pay the $13 for the "DLC", or you can just enjoy the polishes without it.

If you didn't own the game, then it's a $40 strategy game, and you're not really affected by any of this. Though in fairness, one big advantage now is that your friends who do own the game can buy you the entire thing for $13, which is quite a steal (I've already been taking advantage of it).
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Offline kasnavada

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2015, 02:52:08 pm »
Wingflyer +1

I know the game took serious flak from customers but... frankly they learned.

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2015, 02:54:57 pm »
I appreciate all the updates and fixes, but what boggles me is why it's all wrapped up in a new game. Instead, all those fixes should've been funneled into the base game and the new game mode, units and such been sold as a lower priced DLC. Shelling out $40 for what is essentially a glorified patch is going to piss off a LOT of people. It feels like Cities XL all over again.
It's not a $40 patch. For Kickstarter supporters it's free, and for people who already bought the game it's essentially a $13 DLC, which means it's basically exactly what you're saying they should do.

It'll be $40 in a month. So, yes, it's a $40 patch. Especially for those that want to play with new playing friends in a month.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2015, 05:12:53 pm »
Wait, the base fixes ARE applied to PA as well? Not just Titan's? Hmm, then I stand corrected. I was under the impression they weren't.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2015, 05:52:30 pm »
I appreciate all the updates and fixes, but what boggles me is why it's all wrapped up in a new game. Instead, all those fixes should've been funneled into the base game and the new game mode, units and such been sold as a lower priced DLC. Shelling out $40 for what is essentially a glorified patch is going to piss off a LOT of people. It feels like Cities XL all over again.
It's not a $40 patch. For Kickstarter supporters it's free, and for people who already bought the game it's essentially a $13 DLC, which means it's basically exactly what you're saying they should do.

It'll be $40 in a month. So, yes, it's a $40 patch. Especially for those that want to play with new playing friends in a month.
It's a $40 game, which is reasonable for an RTS of its scale. Those who have already purchased it can get the expansion for a fraction of the price for another month, and most likely on every Steam sale and holiday ever, and furthermore I doubt the price will stay that high for longer than 6 months.

It's just like any other Steam game you want your friends to play. You either wait for a sale, or buy the game at full price. Uberent isn't going to survive by selling the game for $13 forever after it just gave out a major expansion for free to 44,000+ of its potential buyers.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2015, 05:57:26 pm »
I appreciate all the updates and fixes, but what boggles me is why it's all wrapped up in a new game. Instead, all those fixes should've been funneled into the base game and the new game mode, units and such been sold as a lower priced DLC. Shelling out $40 for what is essentially a glorified patch is going to piss off a LOT of people. It feels like Cities XL all over again.
It's not a $40 patch. For Kickstarter supporters it's free, and for people who already bought the game it's essentially a $13 DLC, which means it's basically exactly what you're saying they should do.

It'll be $40 in a month. So, yes, it's a $40 patch. Especially for those that want to play with new playing friends in a month.
It's a $40 game, which is reasonable for an RTS of its scale. Those who have already purchased it can get the expansion for a fraction of the price for another month, and most likely on every Steam sale and holiday ever, and furthermore I doubt the price will stay that high for longer than 6 months.

It's just like any other Steam game you want your friends to play. You either wait for a sale, or buy the game at full price. Uberent isn't going to survive by selling the game for $13 forever after it just gave out a major expansion for free to 44,000+ of its potential buyers.

PA was selling for $7.50 on Steam last week.  Now, PA + Titans is $40, because they discontinued just the base game.  That's what they did that looks bad.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Planetary Annihilation: Titans
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2015, 07:45:49 pm »
Still think main part of this shitstorm could have been avoided if they had given EA buyers (who paid substantially more than most KS backers!) the DLC for free too. The discount for the normal buyer is OK, but for EA buyers it is definitely a slap in the face. And I can understand their anger to a point.

Though as usual, on Steam the shitstorm is amplified ;p
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