Author Topic: Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook  (Read 1540 times)

Offline Drjones013

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Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook
« on: July 20, 2014, 11:36:38 pm »
First off, I just want to start by saying AI War is still one of the best strategy concepts I've played in a while. I bought that game a while back, insta-bought all of the expansions, and will likely insta-buy all of the coming ones. I've bought copies for friends during sales (and sometimes not) and even though those copies see less play than I'd like, I still get excited whenever something new happens to the game.

Then, there was Valley. Oh lord, Valley. I had so much hope for that game. Valley 2 did little to assuage what I could only see as a growing fan base wanting to see cooler and more awesome-r things at the expense of a solidified game idea. Then came Skyward Collapse, which looked like it would be intensely fun and ended up being a bit less than expected. I made both of these purchases without even thinking, just said 'Take my money' and was happy to give it to a company that was doing well as an indie.

Then came Last Federation. Purchased it with some reservations but thought to myself that the money would go towards a game developer that I thoroughly enjoyed. It sits, still installed, in my Steam library with a whopping 6 hours played and me absolutely no closer to being able to or even desiring to get deeper into gameplay.

I feel really silly, I do. I love AI War, haven't played it in a while but still enjoy it, and bought the other games because I kept thinking that I wanted to support a company that made such an awesome game. I haven't purchased the other games (Valley really did leave me incredibly disappointed) Arcen has released and I'll probably buy other games in the future. Still love Pablo's music, still love the work being done on AI War, just looking for something else to show love to my still expectant billfold.

Offline x4000

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Re: Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2014, 08:22:27 am »
Hey there,

Well, I think one of the tricky things is that I have way broader tastes than a lot of strategy gamers. Or to be much more accurate, I have way odder tastes than most people, and they run far afield. Or perhaps another way to put it is that the odds of someone's tastes exactly lining up with my own are low, so people don't tend to love every game we've ever made. We have folks who love Valley and Skyward but can't fathom AI War, etc. Though AI War is the one that is pretty much universally respected, at least.

All that said, obviously that doesn't staunch disappointment when it happens, and I'm never happy to hear that folks are disappointed wih our stuff. Not to say don't tell me, but I wish the various titles would have appealed to you more than they did once you had them, to be sure.

I do also want to say thanks for your ongoing support, and I don't think it is in the end misplaced. I mean, you'll be the ultimate judge of that, but our next title Spectral Empire might be a worthy follow up, well see. It's a lot more focused on one genre, like AI War; it's a lot more traditional strategy, but with many twists, like AI War; it's something I will personally have a lot more hours to playtest over a longer span of time, like AI War. Will that be the game you next really enjoy from us? I don't know. I would have hopes that TLF would have been, as I'm really proud of that one.

Anyway, thanks for writing, and for your ongoing support. I'm sorry to hear that you've been disappointed by so many of our titles, but I have high hopes that folks like you will connect really strongly with the next one.
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Offline Drjones013

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Re: Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2014, 04:00:12 pm »
But that's the part that really gets to me. In the beginning I was absolutely enamored with the idea of Valley and spent a lot of time playing with it and even came up with a left-hand scheme for it. Conceptually Valley could have been brilliant, a never-ending exploration game focused on a group of survivors in post-Magical Apocalypia... but the game started losing focus. This has unfortunately now become a running gag at my house who *all* have copies of AI War, most have Tidalis, and everyone else just watched me struggle with Valley and the rest: they even call it Arcen Syndrome.

We've actually used the term with other people and eerily enough, they understand it.

I'll give Last Federation another go, I think at the very least it deserves one.

Edit: And just bought Tidalis, lol. Thanks for supporting Linux!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 04:25:03 pm by Drjones013 »

Offline x4000

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Re: Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2014, 04:48:18 pm »
I'm the first to admit that the Valley 1 process was development hell.  It was overly ambitious for our budget, and there were a variety of other problems as well.  It wound up losing focus because we didn't have sufficient time for prototyping.

Valley 2 went way over budget, but turned out more or less how I intended, based on the long experience with Valley 1 making Valley 2 easier to envision.

Shattered Haven's art was a disaster for a variety of reasons, and we started running out of time for the extra alternate endings, and it's a niche sort of appeal in general.  But beyond that it's what I wanted it to be.

Skyward Collapse was completed very quickly, but under extreme time pressure due to our ongoing budget problems with our growing expenses of larger staff and larger art spend, etc.  That made for a less-polished launch than I wanted, which in turn made the 2.0 version of that game (which launched alongside the expansion) a lot more expensive to produce than it should have been.  There was a lot of polish and cleanup that was happening there, and the 2.0 version was really the definitive version of what I had hoped for with 1.0.  That was actually true of AI War, too, really.

Bionic Dues went pretty much perfectly, from an internal standpoint, as far as projects go.  That made the financial performance of it all the more frustrating, because despite the problems with the process in Skyward, it sold so much better.  Go figure.

The Last Federation had some scope creep problems and some prototyping problems, but the biggest problem was the freaking combat.  That took us back by a couple of months, and really caused incredible amounts of crunch and rush, and the loss of staff, and so on.  Despite all that, I feel like we managed to pull it off.  There were inevitably still things left to deal with at launch, but it all feels like it is in the same category as the ongoing tweaking that AI War has been getting for 5 years, not the unpolished nature of Skyward.


Have we had a history of trouble with having to rush the end of projects due to budget issues?  Yes, absolutely.  Pretty much every project except AI War, Tidalis, and Bionic. 

Have we had a number of projects that got lost in the weeds due to trying to split across multiple genres?  Yes, again, absolutely.  That was the biggest problem with Valley 1's development, perhaps with Valley 2's reception, and with TLF's development (although that was not a catastrophic thing in terms of the game itself, it was just very very costly and unfortunate for the company).

Have we had some projects that simply got lost in the weeds design-wise?  Yes, definitely, because on top of being in a time crunch, as the lead designer I'd often get sucked into programming and balance minutia rather than focusing on the big picture and doing proper amounts of personal playtesting, etc.  I have something like 4000 hours of playtime into AI War, and that's an important thing, I think.

Have we noticed these things?  Yes.  After each project Keith and I talk about what we think went well and went poorly, and what we think could go better.  I didn't want to lose the staff that we did, but in terms of how that affects our monthly expenses and thus the amount of time pressure we get put under, it was a healthy pruning from a project standpoint.  We just always -- since the start of the company -- had been in a budget fight for survival, and finally that's not the case.  It's our game to lose, essentially, which is a new thing that I'm wary of.

We also recognize the importance of having the lead designer actually playtest and have an appropriate amount of focus on the design, as opposed to getting bogged down in the programming.  Much as I love programming, there was a good 3-4 month period during the development of TLF where I did literally none.  That was definitely to the benefit of that game.  But when budget issues hit, then unfortunately we had to kind of abandon that and that was not to the benefit of the game.  With Spectral Empire, we have our ducks more in a row in terms of being able to handle this properly.

The other big thing is making sure that we aren't scheduling our project to basically be feature-complete at the time of release, or only even a month in advance, if we can help it.  By having several months of lead time as well, that allows both for some slippage, as well as for an extended period of just kind of quiet stable testing and small fixing that is a very good thing.

This isn't one aspect of our company that we talk about too publicly much, but it is something that Keith and I talk about internally a lot.  The others and I talk about production-related stuff based around their areas as well (art, music), but those haven't had the sort of schedule issues and whatnot that core design/programming has.

Anyway, life is a learning process, and that's something we're attuned to.  We know we don't have every aspect of our process down pat yet, although we have figured out a great many things over the last 5 years.  But each project teaches us new things, both in terms of new things we do well and lessons from things that we did poorly.

The tragedy is a person or a company that never learns and just plows ahead, and I don't think that's something we've ever done.  There are some things, like staff cuts, that you could argue that I should have done a long time ago.  And it's true that would have been better for the budget pressures the games were under.  But I did feel it was necessarily to go one thing at a time before just throwing people under the bus for project reasons.  And even in the end, I didn't do it until my back was absolutely to the wall and I had no other choice.  So from a business sense that's probably been my biggest failing, although from a personal standpoint it's not something I feel bad about -- looking out for the staff in my charge as much as I can.  But with each project, there have been new things that we tried in order to address the various issues.  Some experiments were successful and were kept, and others were failures for reasons internally or externally.

What I can tell you is that at this point in time I think we have the institutional knowledge and the staff and budget to do the game that I want to do, and the timeframe needed to have hopefully several extra months at the end beyond what we think we need.  We're also not trying to split genres,w which was such a pain point with Valley 1 and TLF. 

So, again, it seems to be our game to lose at this point.  Will we make some brand new mistakes?  Probably.  Will we make the same sorts of ones we've made in various projects in the past?  Hopefully not, or at least hopefully not in the same ways.  So we'll see what happens!
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Offline Drjones013

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Re: Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 05:14:11 pm »
I can't imagine how hard it would have to be to turn to someone and tell them that the dream ride is over and they have to find a day job again. Honestly that's a big reason why I've promoted Arcen as much as I have. And cross-genre game design, while difficult, isn't something that Arcen is bad at: in fact, I think more often than not the company is a victim of its own initial success. Too many spices tend to cloud a soup, and the initial build of AVWW was *amazing*; it was already a blend of some extremely exotic game styles combined into one. Then Arcen Syndrome struck: the community, which is really supportive on these forums, had 80 different ideas with 100 variants and these began to creep into the initial flavor. Some of the ideas were really good, in fact a lot of them were, but as a whole the community was describing at least five different games.

I really want to see this company succeed and really want 'Arcen Syndrome' to go the way of 'pulling a Homer,' so to speak. The company's niche, so far as I can tell, is taking interesting game genres and combining them in new ways to produce unexpected product, so occasionally getting lost in the weeds is an occupational hazard. Hopefully next time it isn't as costly.


Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2014, 04:40:23 am »
Personal favourites of mine are obviously AI War, which got me into Arcen in the first place, Tidalis, Bionic Dues and TLF. The others didn't really hold my interest for too long. Even though I've probably spent upwards of 20 hours on AVWW.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2014, 02:31:00 pm »
Thanks for the support, guys. :)  At this point I'm not sure I have anything to add, I just really appreciate it, even if we don't always live up to your hopes.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2014, 03:28:30 pm »
I appreciate the support as well, very much.  We've made mistakes, and I'm sure we'll make more in the future, but we're learning. 

Most of our projects thus far haven't remotely achieved their real potential (in terms of fun and/or commercial success), and we're still learning how to avoid that in the future, but overall if we're able to keep making games you'll be glad we did :)
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Offline Salamander

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Re: Arcen, why are you so bad for my pocketbook
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 10:13:07 am »
I had just realized the other day that while I had AI War(of course!), Tidalis, The Last Federation, and Skyward Collapse, I was missing the rest so with an evil laugh and petting my cat like a Bond villain, I grabbed them all on Steam!

AI War is my fave by you guys without a doubt and hoping to someday get another ship in the game besides the Armor Rotters so the others get less playtime but they are reasonably priced and with me leaving SWTOR in 2 weeks I have more game time to try them.