Author Topic: Persistent Browser based Space Game that I actually really like  (Read 11899 times)

Offline deMangler

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Hi,
I have been playing a game called Pardus lately:

http://www.pardus.at/welcome.php

I am always trying out new strategy/trading type free browser based games (coz I am poor :P  ), mostly they are disappointing, but this one is good. It is also a few years old so I was quite surprised not to have found it earlier, considering how much googling 'RTS, trading, space game' etc  I do.

What I especially like about it is that it's not pay-to-win (which I hate). Also it appeals to the Elite Player in me - for some reason, I think the game may be inspired heavily by it - even though it is top-down 2d.
It also has a really good turn-based/real time system going on, so that it's not like 'he who has no life and can spend all his time on-line wins'.

I am really tempted to write a kind of mini review of it, but maybe I will leave that until I have experienced more of the game.
So far - things I like:
Combat, exploring, large universe, trading, construction, character development, sensible community.
I have not explored the diplomacy/faction side of things deeply yet - seems cool though.

I haven't found anything I don't like yet, very unusual for me, give it time perhaps.

Anyway, I searched this forum for Pardus to see which fellow AI War players were in to it and to my huge surprise there were no hits.

So It would be negligent of me not to introduce you to it.


dM

Offline x4000

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Re: Persistent Browser based Space Game that I actually really like
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 07:57:07 am »
Awesome!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Echo35

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Re: Persistent Browser based Space Game that I actually really like
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 09:24:08 am »
Just from looking over the website, it reminds me a lot of Escape Velocity.

I should install that game again...

Offline zespri

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Re: Persistent Browser based Space Game that I actually really like
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 06:52:18 pm »
First of all, thank you for pointing out the game.

Now this is going to be off-topic, but we are in off-topic forum, right?

When reading their site I was quite interested in their "anti-cheating" measures. It seems that for certain type of games, being able to have more than one account in the same world giving an edge ("unfiar advantage") to whoever has more than one account. Interestingly, this is not a problem for World of Warcraft. I have not played pardus (yet), so I have no idea what kind of advantage they are talking about. If anyone has any experience with the game, let me know, what you can do in pardus that you can't do in WoW that spoils the game for others.

No let's consider what pradus does to stop this. First of all the have a rule one PC - one user. They say that this rule was put in place to make automatic bans possible. Before that it took a lot of man hours to police accounts, and this simple rule resolved it for them. But the ultimate goal is this: one physical person - one account. Compare the rule and the goal, they are not the same. I'm not sure that this goal is really achievable at all, but I'll talk about this later.

Now, just let consider their rule. They do state, that their automatic ban system has nothing to do with IP addresses. (If this is true, I don't know, it might be not.) They say, that if you have to different physical PCs and your brother plays on one of them and yourself on the other, and you are both in the same household and have the same IP you have nothing to worry about. They also say, that they won't disclose the technical details about their detection techniques to avoid circumvention. But know this, the game does not require anything but browser, i.e. no flash, no java and no other plug-in. It does require cookies and javascript though (obviously).

Let's think is this possible to detect two accounts being played from the same PC, if you are not relying on IP address. The first line of defence is obviously cookies. We can set cookies with user's account number and if user logs in and the account cookie does not match, we warn them and than ban them. But this is pretty easy to circumvent, just clear all the cookies before logging in and you'll be fine. Can we protect against this by checking if user has clean cookie every time they log on? Yes and no. We certainly can detect that, but we hardly can act on this as this is not a prove that the same computer was used for playing two different accounts. When you open the game in a different browser, you cookies will be clean. Also it's not a crime regularly ran anti-malware program that kills all unapproved cookies from your browser.

The first line of defence seems also be the last. But hang on for a sec, have you ever heard about browser fingerprinting? Look at this very interesting paper https://panopticlick.eff.org/browser-uniqueness.pdf the rough idea is that, even if you have the same browser there can be subtle changes in the meta-data that the browser sends, depending on system configuration. We can remember that, and compare different accounts fingerprints. But than again, it's quite possible that two computers has exactly the same configuration and hence the same fingerprint so you can't use this method alone and 100% reliably.

It seems that pardus thought hard about using the game from public places, such as schools and internet café's. To be able to support this, they came up with a notion of Identified account. The goal is still present, you can't have two accounts (identified or otherwise), but the rule no longer applies. If you account is identified, then playing from a PC where someone else plays from is ok and the check is skipped. This way, if you know you'll be playing on a PC other people are playing on two, you can get your account identified and be safe from the scary ban. The poor bastard without identified account that will be playing on the same PC in the internet café as you did won't.

So how do you make an account identified? a) you simply pay. If you get a premium account, it is automatically identified. b) you send them a copy of your passport or driving license. and c) you sent them an authenticated digital certificate. (To get one of those you need to pay a Certificate Authority and the authority will also require some form of ID from you). This kind of identification (apart from the paid account) makes sure that there is a unique person (as identified by physical ID) attached to each account. The paid account does not have this guarantee, but pardus thinks that not many people will risk their money should it be detected that they own two different paid account, as these will be banned once detected too.

This all is nice and good and complicated, but the real question, does this help? This all reminds me of draconian DRMs where you have to prove you are not criminal, and you, the legitimate customer, suffer, while the pirates get away with everything.

The last point is this. The goal of ensuring that one user always have one account is unrealistic. Imagine I have two computers at home. I create two accounts, and play one account from one computer and the other from the other computer. I tell pardus that the second account is my cat's. This is absolutely impossible to detect. I can prove that I have a cat, and my cat can confirm, that she is willing to give her in-game resources because she loves me. Ok, not cat. Sister. Mother. Flatmate. You choose.

So pardus, why all this annoyance if in the end you can't do anything to reach you goal? WoW is much more logical and consistent in this respect. You pay for 5 accounts and you can use them all. You can create many characters in the same world and you can trade items between them. Soul-bound items is mechanics that helps control that. It seems it is possible to implement the same thing less... severe.

Offline deMangler

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Re: Persistent Browser based Space Game that I actually really like
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 04:24:47 am »
First of all, thank you for pointing out the game.

Now this is going to be off-topic, but we are in off-topic forum, right?

When reading their site I was quite interested in their "anti-cheating" measures. It seems that for certain type of games, being able to have more than one account in the same world giving an edge ("unfiar advantage") to whoever has more than one account. Interestingly, this is not a problem for World of Warcraft. I have not played pardus (yet), so I have no idea what kind of advantage they are talking about. If anyone has any experience with the game, let me know, what you can do in pardus that you can't do in WoW that spoils the game for others.

Dunno - I hate WOW with a passion. Meta-game I suppose - Pardus seems to be a PVP RPG where immersion seems to be more important than 'winning'
Also, as there is a genuine supply/demand driven player economy multi-account meta-gaming could be very disruptive to the game balance. The game does seem very well balanced.

Bottom line is - I don't know the answer to this question, but those are my thoughts.

<edit> It also occurs to me that the limited turns per time is important to game balance (especially with PVP) and one of the 'features' of the game being there is no real advantage to being on-line more than a certain amount - because everyone gets the same limited number of turns over time. Multi-accounting would spoil this balance if players used the characters as supporting alts.
Also the supply/production chain encourages specialization and interaction There just aren't enough turns to generalize efficiently and compete. Some people have to trade or haul, others have to keep the space lanes clear, others have to pirate... Yarr! Others build. Of course a single player can do all these things, but the turns would be distributed between all these activities and there is a balance that works. If alts could craft/fight/haul/trade for each other it would make this aspect of the game dysfunctional. <edit>

No let's consider what pradus does to stop this. First of all the have a rule one PC - one user. They say that this rule was put in place to make automatic bans possible. Before that it took a lot of man hours to police accounts, and this simple rule resolved it for them. But the ultimate goal is this: one physical person - one account. Compare the rule and the goal, they are not the same. I'm not sure that this goal is really achievable at all, but I'll talk about this later.

Now, just let consider their rule. They do state, that their automatic ban system has nothing to do with IP addresses. (If this is true, I don't know, it might be not.) They say, that if you have to different physical PCs and your brother plays on one of them and yourself on the other, and you are both in the same household and have the same IP you have nothing to worry about. They also say, that they won't disclose the technical details about their detection techniques to avoid circumvention. But know this, the game does not require anything but browser, i.e. no flash, no java and no other plug-in. It does require cookies and javascript though (obviously).

Let's think is this possible to detect two accounts being played from the same PC, if you are not relying on IP address. The first line of defence is obviously cookies. We can set cookies with user's account number and if user logs in and the account cookie does not match, we warn them and than ban them. But this is pretty easy to circumvent, just clear all the cookies before logging in and you'll be fine. Can we protect against this by checking if user has clean cookie every time they log on? Yes and no. We certainly can detect that, but we hardly can act on this as this is not a prove that the same computer was used for playing two different accounts. When you open the game in a different browser, you cookies will be clean. Also it's not a crime regularly ran anti-malware program that kills all unapproved cookies from your browser.

The first line of defence seems also be the last. But hang on for a sec, have you ever heard about browser fingerprinting? Look at this very interesting paper https://panopticlick.eff.org/browser-uniqueness.pdf the rough idea is that, even if you have the same browser there can be subtle changes in the meta-data that the browser sends, depending on system configuration. We can remember that, and compare different accounts fingerprints. But than again, it's quite possible that two computers has exactly the same configuration and hence the same fingerprint so you can't use this method alone and 100% reliably.

It seems that pardus thought hard about using the game from public places, such as schools and internet café's. To be able to support this, they came up with a notion of Identified account. The goal is still present, you can't have two accounts (identified or otherwise), but the rule no longer applies. If you account is identified, then playing from a PC where someone else plays from is ok and the check is skipped. This way, if you know you'll be playing on a PC other people are playing on two, you can get your account identified and be safe from the scary ban. The poor bastard without identified account that will be playing on the same PC in the internet café as you did won't.

So how do you make an account identified? a) you simply pay. If you get a premium account, it is automatically identified. b) you send them a copy of your passport or driving license. and c) you sent them an authenticated digital certificate. (To get one of those you need to pay a Certificate Authority and the authority will also require some form of ID from you). This kind of identification (apart from the paid account) makes sure that there is a unique person (as identified by physical ID) attached to each account. The paid account does not have this guarantee, but pardus thinks that not many people will risk their money should it be detected that they own two different paid account, as these will be banned once detected too.

This all is nice and good and complicated, but the real question, does this help? This all reminds me of draconian DRMs where you have to prove you are not criminal, and you, the legitimate customer, suffer, while the pirates get away with everything.

The last point is this. The goal of ensuring that one user always have one account is unrealistic. Imagine I have two computers at home. I create two accounts, and play one account from one computer and the other from the other computer. I tell pardus that the second account is my cat's. This is absolutely impossible to detect. I can prove that I have a cat, and my cat can confirm, that she is willing to give her in-game resources because she loves me. Ok, not cat. Sister. Mother. Flatmate. You choose.

So pardus, why all this annoyance if in the end you can't do anything to reach you goal? WoW is much more logical and consistent in this respect. You pay for 5 accounts and you can use them all. You can create many characters in the same world and you can trade items between them. Soul-bound items is mechanics that helps control that. It seems it is possible to implement the same thing less... severe.

I have an identified account - it was not at all complicated.
You ask why the annoyance. What annoyance?

Also, I have no idea how they actually implement their policy from a technical perspective. It seems to work though. There are are areas of the universe where the economy is controlled and prices fixed by alliances of players organizing supply/demand and resource control among other things and if there were not robust effective measures to prevent multi-accounting then this aspect of the game would definitely fail.
I know there is always metagaming in MMORPG', however, It is very difficult to maintain immersion in an RPG, especially PVP RPG's once the metagaming aspect crosses a certain threshold.
One of the things I like about Pardus is the enforced IC/OOC distinction in  chat and other game interaction. This is another sign that they are serious in how they want their game to be played - as an immersive RPG.

The comparison with DRM seems inapplicable. the point of this policy is to protect the players and the game balance. Not to protect revenue.

Probably the deterrent aspect of this is quite effective - social engineering and all that... They are quite 'In Your Face' about this policy. You are right that from a purely user agent or browser point of view there are a million ways to have many accounts. But if someone don't want to play the game as it is intended then it is just not worth the hassle so they move on. If they do want this then it is a refreshing change so they stay.

dM


« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 08:48:42 am by deMangler »

Offline samantha25

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Re: Persistent Browser based Space Game that I actually really like
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2011, 05:16:49 am »
Hmm that does look quite good. I'm also a big player of browser based games (I am also poor! ;)) and recently started Battlestar Galactica Online. I have to say I was slightly disappointed, so I think I'll give your recommendation a go! Shucks!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 03:40:14 am by samantha25 »

Offline Hired Gun

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Re: Persistent Browser based Space Game that I actually really like
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2015, 02:57:42 pm »
Just to let people know how Pardus moderation works:
A popular player accused me in General Chat, (totally groundless), of "wanting to kill an another player in real life". (he even specified "IRL")
Normally I reported that player for it, but no moderative action was taken against him at all.
When i protested against such an unfair moderation in the Forum, which tolerates even such a severe real life accusation, without any evidence to back it up, I got PERMABANNED from the game.

Fellow online gamers, please think twice before deciding to play Pardus, by joining such a community!




« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 03:19:07 pm by Hired Gun »